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princenuadha
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« on: July 30, 2012, 05:50:16 AM »

To be frank I will argue against dienekes IE theory while contrasting it to Steppe/European/R's theory, and providing some indications that point to the latter.

To summarize dienekes stance, he believes that the PIE were primarily "West Asian" in their autosomal make up, and that a major marker of their dispersals is hg j2a. He has used the following arguments to support his stance.

* both "West Asian" and j2a have not been discovered in pre-bronze age Europe even though they are both relatively widespread in modern Europe. Due to the scope (significant parts of Europe) and timing (post bronze age), he believes that IE expansion is the best candidate for said traits.

* "West Asian" has the "correct minimums" in Europe, ie "West Asian" dips in the Basque and the Finnish.

* j2a is more often found in the upper castes of South Asia than the lower casts. (The argument goes that, indo-European influence is associated with the upper cast and the upper cast is associated with j2a. Therefore, j2a should be associated with indo-European, at least for South Asia.)

* j2a and "West Asian" are widespread throughout the IE world, adding plausibility to a PIE of largely j2a and "West Asian" stock.

Now the rebuttal...

First, it is important to understand that the further two groups are from each other the more likely their DNA will be significantly different. Thus, migrations can become more noticeable at longer distance due to the likelihood of introducing "unique" markers, which might not have been so unique in the first steps of the migration.

Since both Southern Europe and South Asia are a good enough physical and, as expected, genetic distannce from the Steppes and the "Womb of Nations" (WoN) at the time of the bronze age, they are both good places to examine the impact of IE. In South Asia we find that, contrary to what the might be expected by the caste system, j2a is actually associated with Dravidian over indo-European [1]. That not only makes indo-European unnecessary for the introduction of j2a, but it looks as if Dravidian was the primary source for j2a in South Asia, especially if Dravidian was in South Asia longer than IE. (Note that the author thinks Dravidian migrated south around the bronze age.)

The fact that the Balochi, an IE group, and Brahui, a Dravidian group, largely overlap each other in Baluchistan, we get a good opportunity to compare the impact of each language. It turns out that "Atlantic_Baltic" is higher in the Balochi while "West Asian" is higher in the Brahui.

On the other side of the IE world is Greece and Italy, both rich in "post" bronze age j2a and "West Asian". What we see here is that j2a has a greater association with the home of the ancient Etruscans [2] and Minoans [3], rather than their neighboring lands which came under IE influence sooner. Even more fitting is that based on paper [2] the non_IE Etruscans came from Anatolia ("West Asian?") in the post neolithic. Non_ie Minoans might have done the same in Crete.

Therefore we can explain the introduction of j2a and "West Asian" to chunks of Italy, Greece, and South Asia post neolithic without IE. Actually we can explain it best with non IE groups.

Now, on to autosomal evidence for a larger scale. While "West Asian" does drop in the Finns and the Basque, this falls in line with those two being more peripheral. Thus, IE is not a necessary vehicle for the spread of "West Asian" in those areas. And while we might not have found "West Asian" in pre bronze age European, the maximum shift would still not be that much. In fact, the largest shift we see in Europe post neolithic is a dramatic shift towards more "North European", which falls in line with steppe migrations. If we look at dienekes k12b we actually see a drop of "North European" in the Basque, Semites, Dravidians, and more.

In support of steppe theory we also know that aYdna R's have been found in what was likely early IE cultures (Bell Beaker and Andronovo), while j2a is completely absent.

Bibliography: don't make fun of me : )

[1] m172, "Elamo-Harappan origins for Haplogroup J2 in India?" m172.blogspot November 2 6 , 2 0 0 8

[2]  A. Piazza et al., "Origin of the Etruscans: novel clues from the Y chromosome lineages" ESHG 2007 abstracts

[3]  R. J. King, ..., "Differential Y-Chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic"

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princenuadha
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 05:58:26 AM »

The big take home message is that the large spread of j2a and "west Asian", assuming the latter is even real, could well have happened post neolithic while still being non IE.
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Jean M
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 06:28:50 AM »

Non_ie Minoans might have done the same in Crete.


They did. I've just been researching that. Looks like the Minoans and Mycenaeans arrived in what is now Greece at around the same period, the Greek-speakers from the Steppe/southern Balkans via Thrace and the Minoans from Anatolia via the Cyclades.  

On J2a in high caste Indians, bear in mind that Proto-Indic appears to have entered India via an amalgamation between steppe IE speakers and the BMAC. The latter appears to derive from farmers of the Near East via Elam (western Iran today, where J2a is high). Since farming (of the Near Eastern type) seems to have entered NW India from the Near East via Iran, we can guess that J2a arrived in that wave too. So we really need to look at subclades to disentangle the story.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 06:32:57 AM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 06:40:34 AM »

@princenuadha

That was very well done. Not sure I know the answer, but it was an admirable post: clear, concise, well written. I liked it.
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Bren123
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 08:30:09 AM »

Non_ie Minoans might have done the same in Crete.


They did. I've just been researching that. Looks like the Minoans and Mycenaeans arrived in what is now Greece at around the same period, the Greek-speakers from the Steppe/southern Balkans via Thrace and the Minoans from Anatolia via the Cyclades.  

On J2a in high caste Indians, bear in mind that Proto-Indic appears to have entered India via an amalgamation between steppe IE speakers and the BMAC. The latter appears to derive from farmers of the Near East via Elam (western Iran today, where J2a is high). Since farming (of the Near Eastern type) seems to have entered NW India from the Near East via Iran, we can guess that J2a arrived in that wave too. So we really need to look at subclades to disentangle the story.



What does  BMAC,stand for?
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 08:34:28 AM »

Non_ie Minoans might have done the same in Crete.


They did. I've just been researching that. Looks like the Minoans and Mycenaeans arrived in what is now Greece at around the same period, the Greek-speakers from the Steppe/southern Balkans via Thrace and the Minoans from Anatolia via the Cyclades.  

On J2a in high caste Indians, bear in mind that Proto-Indic appears to have entered India via an amalgamation between steppe IE speakers and the BMAC. The latter appears to derive from farmers of the Near East via Elam (western Iran today, where J2a is high). Since farming (of the Near Eastern type) seems to have entered NW India from the Near East via Iran, we can guess that J2a arrived in that wave too. So we really need to look at subclades to disentangle the story.



What does  BMAC,stand for?

Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 08:57:50 AM »

@princenuadha

That was very well done. Not sure I know the answer, but it was an admirable post: clear, concise, well written. I liked it.

Agreed, I really appreciate the distillation of the arguments into key points with brief summaries and evidence (cited.)

Has Dienekes tried to rebut this?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 08:58:27 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 09:53:42 AM »

Dienekes has tried to cover himself by stating that J2a+R1a is responsible for IE in some areas and J2a+R1b in others.

However, the argument for IE works even better with R1a+R1b. Another words, there is no need for J2a to make the IE model work.

Also, the upper cast argument he uses is flawed. Sure J2a has been found to be high in Indian castes, but what he hasn't been publicizing is that R1a is even higher!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 09:54:57 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 10:25:19 AM »

Also, the upper cast argument he uses is flawed. Sure J2a has been found to be high in Indian castes, but what he hasn't been publicizing is that R1a is even higher!

Much higher. Sengupta 2006 has the figures and can be read in full online. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/

Upper caste IE speakers:
45.35% R1a1-M17
9.30% J2a-M410

J2a is just relatively high in upper caste Indians, by comparison with 1.67% in tribals. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:27:15 AM by Jean M » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 12:01:59 PM »

"Therefore we can explain the introduction of j2a and "West Asian" to chunks of Italy, Greece, and South Asia post neolithic without IE. Actually we can explain it best with non IE groups."

How about  J2's home base and R1b/R1a,  ancient Iranian tribes?

R-m269

S_Tlsh 18N 44% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.,

Gilaki 43N 23% Indo-Iranian (IE) Roewer et al.

Data from Grugni et al. 2012.  R1b- L23* [compare  J2a branches and R1a branches] in Lurs, who are associated with ancient  Iranian groups like the Medes; same branch, Western North, and North Caspian language. Balochi are also in this language group.

http://www.irantour.org/Iran/people/LUR%20TRIBES.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg



http://medianempire.blogspot.ca/

"The Medes (old Persian, Maad-ha, مادها) were an ancient Iranian people who lived in  in an area of Northern Iran known as Media and spoke a Northern Iranian language referred to as the Median language. Their arrival to the region is associated with the first wave of Iranian tribes in the late second millennium BCE"


Median Language:

"Old Persian and Avestan are the two oldest known Iranian languages."[FN 4] "They were both spoken several centuries B.C.E. Together they make up the the oldest stratum of the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language group." (Ibid.)  Northern Iranians, known as Medes, and Southern Iranians, known as the Pars, spoke languages that were closely related to Old Persian."[FN 5]

 Median is a substrate of Old Persian. (O. Skjærvø, Harvard Univ., Introduction to Old Persian 2d Ed. , "Median is attested by a large vocabulary incorporated into Old Persian, presumably as a substrate for the official language of the Persian Achaemenid kings.")

The Six Median Tribes:  


"Herodotus lists the names of six Median tribes. Some of these are similar to tribal names of the Iranian-Scythians, suggesting a definitive link between these two groups: [1] The Busae group is thought to derive from the Persian term buza meaning indigenous. Whether this was based on an originally Iranian term, or their own name, is unknown. [2] The second group is called the Paraetaceni, or Parae-tak-(eni) in Persian, and denotes nomadic inhabitants of the mountains of Paraetacene. This name recalls the Scythian Para-la-ti, the people of Kolaxis, believed to represent the common people in general, but whom Herodotus calls the "Royal Scythians." [3] The third group is called Stru khat. [4] The fourth group is the Arizanti, whose name is derived from the words Arya (noble), and Zantu (tribe, clan). [5] The fifth group were the Budii, found also among the Black Sea Scythians as Budi-ni. Buddha was of the tribe Budha, the Saka (eastern Scythian) form of the name.  [6] The sixth tribe were the Magi...They were a hereditary caste of priests of the Zurvanism religion that evolved out of Zoroastrianism. The name Magi implies a link with the Sumerians, who called their language Emegir, over time becoming simplified to Magi. Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism)."

This is also the N.E. boundry of the Semetic language, Media proper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Semitic_1st_AD.svg

The six Median tribes resided in Media proper, the triangle between of Ecbatana, Rhagae and Aspadana,[3] in today's central Iran,[9][10] the area between Tehran, Isfahan and Hamadan. Of the Median tribes, the Magi resided in Rhaga,[11] modern Tehran.[12] It was a sort of sacred caste, which ministered to the spiritual needs of the Medes.[13] The Paretaceni tribe resided in and around Aspadana, modern Isfahan,[3][14][15] the Arizanti lived in and around Kashan[3] and the Busae tribe lived in and around the future Median capital of Ecbatana, modern Hamadan.[3] The Struchates and the Budii lived in villages in the Median triangle.[16]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 02:10:17 PM by acekon » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 01:10:04 PM »

What has slightly surprised me is the increase in R1b among IE speakers as opposed to non-IE (although there are exceptions) in the whole area of eastern Anatolia, Iran, Caucuses etc.  Its far from neat and tidy (very messy population history in those areas) but there does seem to be a significant increase in R1b among IE speakers in Iran.  That to me suggests that R1b came into the area from the north.  I dont really follow why R1b and R1a cannot both be seen as steppes people who spread out in slightly different patterns.  A lot would be explained if R1b was more western steppes nad R1a somewhat to the east.  It also kind of divides the Indo-Iranian world into an R1b-rich west in Iran and an R1a rich area spreading towards the Indic world.  If they were both Indo-Iranian speaking this suggests that R1a and R1b were both still in the steppes when the Indo-Iranian linguistic shifts swept that area.  It does seem to question the simple centum-saetem split corresponding with R1b and R1a.  Tocharian also questions that although its not 100% clearcut that the Tarim mummies are really the Tocharians.  The Iranian speaking R1b folk of Iran suggests that the situation was not so clearcut in terms of the identification of R1a and R1b with the saetem-centum split.  It suggests that the dominance of R1b in some area of Europe was caused by a fission and sort of founder effect of a mixed R1a and R1b group and that some of the early splits that retained centum forms were R1a (Tocharian?) and others (the larger group) although the bigger group heading west were R1b.  R1b Iranians in Iran suggests that both R1a and R1b remained among those who did not early split and remained near the steppes long enough to experience saetemisation and even the shifts to Inod-Iranian.  All of this is explicable by R1a and R1b being spread along the steppes in slighlty different distribitions, with R1b dominating the immediate Black Sea shore are and R1a to the east and by-passing them into north-east Europe. 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 01:13:35 PM »

That BMAC wasn’t the fatherland of Indo-Europeans and of the Indo-European languages is clearly demonstrated by Wetzel (Aryan and non-Aryan Names in Vedic India. Data for the linguistic situation, c. 1900-500 B.C…):

“In passing it should be mentioned that there are a number of words common to I[ndo] A[rian] and O[ld] Ir[anian] which are not easily etymologizable and must go back to a W. Central Asian substrate that affected Proto-Indo-Aryan or Common I[ndo] Ir[anian] (in the Bactria-Margiana area?)” (page 5 of the paper). (Witzel, Michael (1999). "Aryan and non-Aryan Names in Vedic India. Data for the linguistic situation, c. 1900-500 B.C.". In Bronkhorst, J. (PDF). Aryans and Non-Non-Aryans, Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology. Cambridge, Massachusetts. pp. 337–404).
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Jean M
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 01:45:37 PM »

That BMAC wasn’t the fatherland of Indo-Europeans and of the Indo-European languages is clearly demonstrated by....

Of course the BMAC was not the fatherland of PIE.

The idea is that the BMAC collapsed and its remnants were taken over by Andronovo-Tazabagyab people. We don't know for sure what language was spoken in the BMAC, but the linguistic evidence is that Proto-Indo-Iranian borrowed words from an unknown language, then Proto-Indic borrowed a lot more words from this same language. The borrowed vocabulary is very much what one would expect of borrowings from a culture that had irrigation agriculture, etc. , so the deduction is that the unknown language was that of the BMAC.  

Illiterate people do not borrow words from a language that is not spoken in their vicinity. So the unknown language had to be one with which the Andronovo people were in contact. (If we take it as read that Andronovo = Proto-Indo-Iranian.) It all fits nicely.  
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 01:54:00 PM »

(If we take it as read that Andronovo = Proto-Indo-Iranian.) It all fits nicely.  
Yes, they were Indo-Iranians and not Indo-Europeans. The centum languages were spoken elsewhere, i.e. in Central-Western Europe, where they are spoken now. This is the contrast between you and me. And you know that I think that before they were spoken in Italy (or nearby) and that from there came hg. R1b1 and subclades. That's all.
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Maliclavelli


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acekon
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2012, 02:08:34 PM »

What I find interesting are the center of weight in population J2 -R1b- R1a. The distribution patterns and success of each group.

J2 fairly heavy distribution around Anatolia/Caucasus/Iran.    
 
R1b heavy distribution[depending on study and pop.] in Western Europe[ roughly 30%-70%] 100million +/- tapering of to Anatolia/Armenia, and Media proper, regions.
 
R1a heavy distribution[depending on study and pop.] in Indic region _Indo-Gangetic Plain[ roughly 20%-70%] & India[30%] perhaps in the neighborhood of 400-450 million +/-  compared to perhaps 50+/- million in Eastern Europe, Poland/Ukraine/Hungary/Belorussia/Russia region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges_Plain

The success of each group is totally different.
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A.D.
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2012, 03:36:50 PM »

Talking of Scythians, the R1a-R1b split etc  horses are always involved there's a good piece here-
 
http://www.degruyter.com/view/books/9783110266306/9783110266306.17/9783110266306.17.xml

They mention the Ukraine and Kazakhstan as centers.

There is a clear divide in western and eastern types. The end result is the likes of Clydesdale's  (or the Budweiser horses) and racehorses. Going back futher think Welsh Cobb's (supposedly direct descendants of Celtic chariot ponies) Vs Arabs. 
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princenuadha
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 04:36:09 PM »

Quote from: rms2
I liked it.

Thanks! I think I might write better when I'm sleepy ; )

Quote from: Mikewww
Has Dienekes tried to rebut this?

I haven't shown it to him yet, and I don't know if I will... I'm pretty sure that if I give him a formal argument on the spot he'll just dig deeper, and so, what's the point of that?

But, you're free to bring any of the points you like to him.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2012, 05:31:57 PM »

Dienekes seems to be slowly morphing his theory to something close to the steppe model if you ignore the J2 element.  In term of detail I dont really go for the idea that R1b was south of the Caucuses early on.  Anatolia is a very early farming area and there is not much evidence for R1b taking off until the 5th millenium in the form of L23*.  I think too much is made of R1a's dominance (which may well be largley down to the Slavic advance north of the Black Sea today.  There is a growing body of evidence that R1b frequently seems to have been an important element in Iranic and other groups on the steppes and central asia.  There seems to have once been a healthy doze of R1b on the steppes.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2012, 05:40:58 PM »

What I find interesting are the center of weight in population J2 -R1b- R1a. The distribution patterns and success of each group.

J2 fairly heavy distribution around Anatolia/Caucasus/Iran.    
 
R1b heavy distribution[depending on study and pop.] in Western Europe[ roughly 30%-70%] 100million +/- tapering of to Anatolia/Armenia, and Media proper, regions.
 
R1a heavy distribution[depending on study and pop.] in Indic region _Indo-Gangetic Plain[ roughly 20%-70%] & India[30%] perhaps in the neighborhood of 400-450 million +/-  compared to perhaps 50+/- million in Eastern Europe, Poland/Ukraine/Hungary/Belorussia/Russia region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges_Plain

The success of each group is totally different.

I posted last week that there could be an element that R1b and R1a having an originally westerly steppes and more easterly steppes location could have had different degrees of farming economic aspects (as is shown in the archaeology of pre-Yamnaya steppes cultures) and this may have led to the R1b-rich western steppes peoples targetting different niches from R1a-rich groups a little to the east.  R1a may have sought to continue a more steppes culture and simply dominate or make clients of the local farmers while R1b may have been more interested in being part of a farming based world.  That may have predisposed them to follow different routes and target areas and settle in rather different ways.   
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