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A.D.
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« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2012, 09:25:42 AM »

Didn't 'Airaech' mean 'nobleman at some point? Also aren't the Picts speak a Britonic Celtic similar to the 'Welsh' maybe they used the word Gael for Irish speakers.
This gets a bit mad the word Scott was used to describe the Irish, then by the time of the Stewart's Scots meant lowlanders who spoke a sort of English and the highlanders (McDonald lord of the Isle allies) were called Gaelic.
As for Adamson's book it wasn't as good or well informed as as any of Howard's and
I'll waste no more time on him.     
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2012, 12:02:20 PM »

Didn't 'Airaech' mean 'nobleman at some point? Also aren't the Picts speak a Britonic Celtic similar to the 'Welsh' maybe they used the word Gael for Irish speakers.
This gets a bit mad the word Scott was used to describe the Irish, then by the time of the Stewart's Scots meant lowlanders who spoke a sort of English and the highlanders (McDonald lord of the Isle allies) were called Gaelic.
As for Adamson's book it wasn't as good or well informed as as any of Howard's and
I'll waste no more time on him.     

Scot though is only known in Latin sources and is not a native term.   I dont think we will ever know what the Picts called themselves collectively. 
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A.D.
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« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2012, 10:05:56 PM »

Probably the 'people of ..a patron god/area/animal or something like that is my guess.
May be there's a clue in their stone inscriptions.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2012, 08:07:55 AM »

Didn't 'Airaech' mean 'nobleman at some point? Also aren't the Picts speak a Britonic Celtic similar to the 'Welsh' maybe they used the word Gael for Irish speakers.
This gets a bit mad the word Scott was used to describe the Irish, then by the time of the Stewart's Scots meant lowlanders who spoke a sort of English and the highlanders (McDonald lord of the Isle allies) were called Gaelic.
As for Adamson's book it wasn't as good or well informed as as any of Howard's and
I'll waste no more time on him.     

Indeed though I would imagine it's more "gentry" that would be appropriate term. Bóaire = "cattlelord" -- however they were "freeholders" as oppose to the Flatha (plural of Flaith), who could be termed "hereditary princes" (nobility/aristocracy). So men who were aire's would have owed allegience to a lord (Flaith). The Flatha in turn would owe allegience to a Rí (king). Likewise several types of King, all the way up the pile until you hit Ard-Rí (High-King) though I would think the province-kings were really those who had most amount of power within their domain (province), as high-kingship is in some ways more theoretical/aspirational (or "with opposition" as they say in 11th/12th centuries)
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2012, 08:17:14 AM »

While doing some googling I came across the following PDF should be of interest to anyone looking at early Irish law/society

Regnal succession in early medieval Ireland
Immo Warntjes
Centre for the Study of Human Settlement and Historical Change,
National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland

http://his.library.nenu.edu.cn/upload/soft/haoli/112/153.pdf

Here's definition of Bóaire from eDIL:
http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?Fuzzy=0&scount=2&searchtext=xmlid%20contains%20b%C3%B3aire&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1

--Edit--

I should mention that in the summary of the first link he gives an example of succession among the Southern Uí Néill, specifically the "Síl nÁedo Sláine" ("seed" of Áed Sláine) who were historically Kings of Bregha (Brega -- basically modern County Meath) and who along with Clann Cholmáin were the two kindreds that made up the "Southern Uí Néill" -- as oppose to the "Northern Uí Néill" which were made up of the Cenél nEóghain and the Cenél Chonaill.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 10:10:38 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
sernam
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« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2012, 11:34:14 PM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis.  

There is an even better correspondence between La Tene material and Cruithin tribes.  In the earliest sources there was no single ethnicity called the Gaels.  The Irish were a number of sub-ethnicities or strata described as Errain, Cruithin etc.  The concept of a single Gaelic ethnicity and Gaels in general seems to have been devised in the early Medieval period by Latinate writters to create a unified national history when in reality there were several strata and many tribes and no unity.  The giveaway is the name Gael is not even Irish.  Its British (Welsh).  The Gaelic language is very old but the concept of 'Gaels' is nowhere near as old.  In general tribal people see differences rather than unity and names like Scot, Pict, Gael etc seem to not have been native terms and were used by outsiders or latinate writters to create an umbrella term.

I agree to a large extent but as you mention elsewhere the Irish had terms for foreigners or at least others not from Ireland, gall, so there must’ve been some sort of collective identity.  
Of course Welsh speakers were using Prydyn (Pretani) for Pict


There actual is a word, however most people don't know it ;-) it's:
Féni

This word is the root of the later Fian (plural Fianna), members of a Fian/Fianna were called: fénnid

Another good example where the word comes up is in the word for the law (Brehon law in english): fénechas -- basically Irish/freeman's law.

Proto-Goidelic underwent a sound change where Proto-Celtic V/W (sometimes written as U) mutated to a f sound. As a result Veni -> Féni, in proto-brythonic the sound change was from a V/W -> gw

Generally it's regarded that both féni and Guoidel (old-welsh) share common root in Proto-IE.

Anyways if you look at Ptolemy/roman sources you see the word "veni" shows up as part of tribal names all over the place.

Here's some extracts from DIL: (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old/middle irish)

Quote
fénech
o-ā (Féne) belonging to the féni ; of old or genuine Irish stock : in accordance with the customs of the féni (: clérech in follg. verse exx.) : rop f.¤ `versed in legal lore'  Tec. Corm. § 6. 13 . lasan fialchas fenech  ZCP x 344 § 20 . oclach ... arusc fenech (`of Irish speech ' Thurneysen, taking word as gp. But `a.f.' may be a cheville)  Snedgus u. Mac R. 10.7 . a tig rig recht [leg.  in rechta] fenich with the law of the féni   12.1 . ba fecht feneach (chev.),  Anecd. i 73 § 214 .

Quote
fénechas
o,m. also fenchas (hence by glossators somet. confounded with senchas which was supposed to be derived from it by `cendfochrus,' the substitution of one initial for another,  Laws i 32.34  Auraic. 5384 . fenchas ... is he in gnathach indiu `senchas'  ACC § 1 Comm.  ( LU 485 ). feanchus .i. seanchus, O'Cl.). The traditional customs and regulations of the féni taken as a whole, including the body of the ancient law and somet. the `bérla Féne' ; `native customary law', Binchy,  Críth G. vocab., p. 88 . (Thurney- sen,  Bürgsch. § 59 n ., renders it `Uberlieferung der Fēni, Irenrecht ', and adds that the phr. `ara-chan fēnechus' is used to introduce a legal statement couched in poetic- rhetorical style, a `roscad') : na cuic curu ata taithmechta la Feine .i. ... do reir in feinechais,  Laws i 52.23 Comm.  is a fenechus (.i. i ssenchus .i. ni i lleabraib ni hi cain) rosuidiged dire lethard do gradaib tuaithe,  BCrólige § 5 . dianadbe feinechas (.i. madia roib riar dligidh in fenechais do damthain do),  Laws iv 18.21 (20z) . Dist. from Senchus [Már] and Críth Gablach : na se ba fuilit a fut Ḟeinichais, ┐ it inann ┐ na cuig seoit fuilit isin tSenchus, ┐ na se samaisce fuilit isin Crich Gablach,  O'C. 2545  (<  Eg. 88 , 45 ). amhail isbeir i fut Fenechais : ni nascat cuma comorba, etc. ,  Laws i 186.13 . co n-abuir tall i fut Ḟeineachuis, nach dilius daghrath, etc. ,  ii 270.16 . a cumlechtaib Feine .i. a com- slechtib in feinechais  i 182.21 . is fás fenechas i condeilgg ferbb ṅDe the common law is void in comparison with the words of God   ACC 52  (= fénechas ic ferbaib Dé  LU 789 ).  Corm. Y 584 . tucaid a denma ainceas brethemnais do cuir [leg.  chur ?] for Cumain ... iar leghud leighind ┐ nir legh Fenechas roimhe riam, co ndechaid isin tuaisceart dia foglaim,  O'C. 1046  (<  H 3.18 , 436 b ). isat airimda bretha rechta isin feneochus  YBL 183 b 20  =  IT iii 193.11 . ni dēmad fir hĒrenn fīr fear ... na feineachus flatha dūine tar ēis Fhir D. do thuitim linn  ZCP x 297.29 . a lucht imdénma in ḟenchuis `ye that adorn the code of law '  Met. Dinds. iii 54.10 . Féinechas Hérenn : Clúain Húama `the Jurisprudence of Ireland-Cloyne '  Triads 12 . Cluain Lethan ardchathair ḟenechais Erenn  LB 206  marg.  dobreth ardchennus ┐ comhairle ┐ fenechus Érend do Morann  ZCP xi 64.15 . Seanchus ┐ Feneachus na hEreann do ghlanadh ┐ do scriobhadh ar tteclamadh ... seinleabhar nEreann co haonmaighin  FM 438 . oide foircetail hi ffeineachus (`i.e. , in the Brehon law,' O'Don.)  FM v 1682.15 . M. Mac Aedhagain, sai Erend a mbreithemhnacht fenachais  ALC ii 592.3 . breitheamhain ḟéineachais Uladh,  Keat. iii 172 . conaimes gart fri féne fáth (.i. féle dhó ar a foáith do rér an ḟéneachais ona feraibh nāraibh),  Ériu xiii 51.22 . la Feine ... (... .i. do reir in Feinechais),  Laws i 84.23 . Transf. of foreign law and custom : Ailfrid ... ró ordnead recht ┐ féneachus na Saxan  FM 900 . In wider sense : fenechus (.i. oglachus) ┐ maith do denum friumb duit traditional justice, fair dealing (?)  IT iii 242.1 . Cf.  cen cop fial fri fenechus `though he be not liberal to warriors ' [generous in observing custom  (?). Of a niggardly satirist from whom a king is seeking hospitality],  Hib. Min. 65.11 . Equated with `bérla Féne' : Berla Feine .i. in Feinechus no araile berla robui ag Feinius ar leith,  Auraic. 4622 . goar .i. solus isin Fenic[h]us (no isin Breatnais)  633 . is de asbert in file do Scotaib isin ḟenechus : Conétaigti, etc.   LB 146 a 29 . Cf.  Bérla Féine Hérenn : Corcach (with gl. : .i. an iomat breithemhuin ... nó sgol féinechuis ann),  Triads 16 .

Quote
fían
fian féne ḟéinne Fianghal Fianghail -uil Fiangaile fíangalach Fiangalaich
Keywords: driving; pur-; suing; hunting; band; warriors; warpath; band; roving; hunting; troop; fighting-men; warrior-bands; military caste; fianna; fíana; roving; band; fian; -warrior; company; number; persons; shield-bearers; game; chessmen; warrior; General; warrior-shout; fighting; field; fight; hunting-bothy; hut; shelter; encampment; huts; comrade; arms; mutual; friend; board; chess; men; idle; sport; hunting-slaughter; kill-; ing; game; rising; warriors; battle; raid; warlike; accoutrements; hunting; booth; osiers; valor; valiant; bolt; pole; pike; spear

I had come across the Feni thing before in discussion about Irish law tracts etc.  It is interesting and as you say its not known widely.  Was there not some sort of class terms like Grad Flaith and Grad Feine (my spellings are probably wrong) that suggest that the latter meant the ordinary people while the former meant the nobles. 

As for the Goidil I thought the first part was from Gwyddel which had the root Gwydd (Irish Fid, old Celtic Vid/Ved='wood' rather than the Ven root in Feni.  I had however heard that there was a connection between the element in Gwynned in Wales (I think which is from Venedotia or something like that) and the Irish Feni.  I tend to think that Feni meant the ordinary people and commoner young warriors.  Was there not also a term Bearla Feinne or something like that which seemed to mean 'language of the people' or something like that.

Apart from class, Feni was IIRC  originally an ethnic term synonymous w Connacta, apart from Uster & other tribes. It later became a class, like airig
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