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inver2b1
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2012, 09:06:20 AM »



Ireland has the Bull McCabe (made famous in The Field) and you have Bunny McCabe!

He was good for more than just rabbits. My uncle hunted and fished for just about anything you could eat. He had a big freezer next to his house under the covered portion of his driveway. It was chock full of squirrels, rabbits, ducks, geese, catfish, and venison.

I always loved visiting him because I knew I would be in for a big adventure.

Sounds like an all round ooutdoors man; where was he from?
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2012, 10:06:08 AM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis. 
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2012, 11:54:11 AM »



Ireland has the Bull McCabe (made famous in The Field) and you have Bunny McCabe!

He was good for more than just rabbits. My uncle hunted and fished for just about anything you could eat. He had a big freezer next to his house under the covered portion of his driveway. It was chock full of squirrels, rabbits, ducks, geese, catfish, and venison.

I always loved visiting him because I knew I would be in for a big adventure.

Sounds like an all round ooutdoors man; where was he from?

Missouri originally. When I knew him he and his family (he was married to my mom's sister) lived in El Centro, California.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2012, 02:38:41 PM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis.  

Co-incidence, both Antrim and Down were planted by "private colonisation" as a result by 1610 they were already full of scots. Result is that to this day the highest percentages of Protestantism on the island are in Antrim and North Down. (East Belfast is 95%~ protestant for example)

This strongly correlates to the areas of "Ulster scots" speech (The Ulster dialect of Scots "langauge")
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/English_dialects_in_Ulster_contrast.png

Here's a map created 2001 (Northern Ireland) and 2006 (Ireland) census
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b2/Scaoileadh_Creidimhin_in_UlaidhReligious_Division_of_Ulster.jpg
Quote
Percentage of Catholics in each electoral division in Ulster. Based on census figures from 2001 (UK) and 2006 (ROI).
0-10% dark orange, 10-30% mid orange,
30-50% light orange, 50-70% light green,
70-90% mid green, 90-100% dark green


From wiki:
Quote
Presbyterian lowland Scots had been arriving since around 1600. From 1606 there was substantial lowland Scots settlement on disinhabited land in north Down, led by Hugh Montgomery and James Hamilton.[1] In 1607 Sir Randall MacDonnell settled 300 Presbyterian Scots families on his land in Antrim.

Quote
By 1622, a survey found there were 6,402 "British" adult males on Plantation lands, of whom 3,100 were English and 3,700 Scottish – indicating a total adult planter population of around 12,000. However another 4,000 Scottish adult males had settled in unplanted Antrim and Down, giving a total settler population of about 19,000.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 02:41:52 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2012, 03:01:52 PM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis.  

Yes that it total coincidence but it has led to an amateur historical model of a Scotland to Ulster to Scotland to Ulster scenario for the current protestant population in various books about the Cruithin.  In fact history shows the reality is that the actual descendants of the Cruithin tribes with proveable links to the Cruithin are those with native Irish Antrim and Down names like like Lawlor, Lynch, McGuiness, McCartan etc.  I think Lavery might be one too but I am not so sure about that one.  They are the real descendants of the Cruithin tribes as they carry the surnames of the Cruithin clans and septs of the DalnAraide and Ui Echach Cobha rulers of Antrim and Down as recorded in the ancient historical sources.  That is not to say there really were not lots of comings and goings between Ireland and Scotland in ancient times.  Its pretty clear that the two countries were incredibly connected in terms of DNA long before the plantation.  Just look at all the clades of L21 with an Irish-Scottish concentration.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2012, 03:10:37 PM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis. 

There is an even better correspondence between La Tene material and Cruithin tribes.  In the earliest sources there was no single ethnicity called the Gaels.  The Irish were a number of sub-ethnicities or strata described as Errain, Cruithin etc.  The concept of a single Gaelic ethnicity and Gaels in general seems to have been devised in the early Medieval period by Latinate writters to create a unified national history when in reality there were several strata and many tribes and no unity.  The giveaway is the name Gael is not even Irish.  Its British (Welsh).  The Gaelic language is very old but the concept of 'Gaels' is nowhere near as old.  In general tribal people see differences rather than unity and names like Scot, Pict, Gael etc seem to not have been native terms and were used by outsiders or latinate writters to create an umbrella term.
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sernam
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2012, 09:03:50 PM »

Pardon me, everyone, but I am going to momentarily hijack this thread, but to tell a tale tangentially related to its theme, since it once again deals with that scion of the House of MacCabe of Gallowglass fame, my uncle, Lloyd McCabe.

<--snip-->

Wonder if my Uncle Lloyd was M222+. Guess I'll never know.


Nice story, here's what Woulfe has to say about McCabe:

Quote
Mac CÁBA—IV—M'Caba, MacCabe, Macabe; 'son of Cába' (probably a nickname; cf. 'cába,' a cap or hood); the name of a military family of Norse origin who came over from the Hebrides, in the 14th century, and settled in Breifney, where they became captains of gallowglasses to the O'Rourkes and O'Reillys. Their pedigree is given by MacFirbis, from which it appears that they are a branch of the Mac Leods (See Mac Leóid). The MacCabes are frequently mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters, the earliest mention being at the year 1358. They are still numerous in Breifney (Leitrim and Cavan), and in the neighbouring counties of Monaghan and Meath.

--
Mac LEÓID—V—MacLeod, MacCleod, MacCloud; 'son of Leóid' (the Norse 'Ljotr,' ugly); the name of a well-known Scottish clan, once powerful in Lewis and Harris. Some of them settled in Ireland in the 16th century.

I believe there is a Hopkins/McCabe cluster under L21. If my memory hold rights Hopkins (in Ireland) is a branch of the McCabe's. What's interesting is that the "private" snp's L319.1 and L302 (L302 is under L319) appear in some of the Hopkins in this cluster (though not the McCabes)


Interesting McLeod is on that quote after McCabe since RMS2's story about poaching rabbits reminded me of a McLeod who lost a PVS14 for allegedly night hunting w a suppressed rifle, but it was a bit farther north & tje game was deer, bear or moose IIRC. $2500 or so scope, ouch, but he could afford it.
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2012, 10:17:37 PM »

I know where the 'we're the Cruithin and we were here first then went away and came back again' theory it's the kind of thing certain people like to hear. Neil Oliver stated language/clan etc divisions were politically based not 'ethnic' I think  y dna proves that. I think the whole Pictish idea has been influenced by the likes of Robert E Howard etc that lesser informed people have the wrong idea. Ideal for political spin.   
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eochaidh
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2012, 11:05:28 PM »

There's a little Cruithne in every Irish person; has to be.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 11:05:50 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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sernam
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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2012, 11:16:31 PM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis. 

There is an even better correspondence between La Tene material and Cruithin tribes.  In the earliest sources there was no single ethnicity called the Gaels.  The Irish were a number of sub-ethnicities or strata described as Errain, Cruithin etc.  The concept of a single Gaelic ethnicity and Gaels in general seems to have been devised in the early Medieval period by Latinate writters to create a unified national history when in reality there were several strata and many tribes and no unity.  The giveaway is the name Gael is not even Irish.  Its British (Welsh).  The Gaelic language is very old but the concept of 'Gaels' is nowhere near as old.  In general tribal people see differences rather than unity and names like Scot, Pict, Gael etc seem to not have been native terms and were used by outsiders or latinate writters to create an umbrella term.

I agree to a large extent but as you mention elsewhere the Irish had terms for foreigners or at least others not from Ireland, gall, so there must’ve been some sort of collective identity.  
Of course Welsh speakers were using Prydyn (Pretani) for Pict
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2012, 02:32:26 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys. 
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eochaidh
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2012, 03:45:38 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys. 

In many European Cultures it seems that tall,  and blue eyed is prized. I remember reading something about an old Irish manuscript that refered to the Cruithne as small, dark haired, dark eyed and "shifty".

My Dad fit the physical description, but he was as honest as the day was long!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2012, 05:39:09 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys. 

In many European Cultures it seems that tall,  and blue eyed is prized. I remember reading something about an old Irish manuscript that refered to the Cruithne as small, dark haired, dark eyed and "shifty".

My Dad fit the physical description, but he was as honest as the day was long!

I might be wrong but I think the reference to that was a much later Scottish history refering to the Creenys of Rhinns of Galloway (near Stranraer and Portpatrick) in Scotland who some have extrapolated as being Irish Cruithne refugees who settled the are in the Medieval period after losing their lands to Normans etc.  That movement is more speculation of antiquarians than certainty though. 

It was used as part of the Scotland-Ulster-Scotland-Ulster multiple rebound movement model in the Cruithin books by Adamson.There is probably a grain of truth that the Cruithin may have had north British Iron Age links and some of them may have left for Scotland in the Medieval period and become the Creenys of Galloway and finally some of their descendants may have returned in the Plantation of Ulster but it is hugely overstated in the Cruithin books and they would surely have been a tiny element in the plantation of Ulster.  However, as I posted before there is a huge shared element in Ireland and Scotland in terms of L21 clusters that surnames and geography show is not down to the Plantation of Ulster.  Its an ancient link that is very clear in archaeology of many periods. 
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sernam
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2012, 06:18:39 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys. 



In Ireland , Oldcroghan man was 6’6” tall while Clonycavan man was only 5’2”, which was the same size (IIRC) as avg prisoners from Culloden 2000 years later.
Northern Pict Brochs were supposedly built for very small people.
If you visit 1700's buildings you'll generally see most people were far smaller.

many plains natives in 1800's America were tall. Americans in general taller in comparison to Irish, Irish taller than British, British taller than Dutchmen.
Now Dutchmen are tallest.


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2012, 06:28:18 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys.  

I think again those comments are from late retospective sources.  Actually the Norman and other Medieval sources describe the Irish as being tall and large bodied.  Giraldus of Wales in his Norman topography of Ireland describes the native Irish as being giants and athletically built.  Other visitors and observors tend to describe the Irish in similar terms are large bodies and athletic.  There are other comments about their clear or ruddy complextions in several sources.  

It was all relative of course.  The average Viking in burials was probably something like 5ft 9 if I remember correctly.  So no group was very tall in those periods.  The period where I recall a lot of people being tall is in the beaker and early Bronze Age.  One of the two Irish Iron Age bog bodies was described as being estimated at 6ft 6 inches tall, the other guy with the mowhawk being very short.  The other Iron Age bog body I have seen from Galway was also over 6ft.  I recall some of the food vessel burials of the Early Bronze Age in Ireland being over 6ft.  Seems that the Bronze and Iron Age in Ireland had some people who were very tall for the period.  However, by the Early Christian period they seem to have lost height.  The pre-famine Irish were at the very top end of the height table in Europe too.  It seems a lot of height was lost in that period.  

Another thing that has long been observed by antiquarians and early physical anthropologists and shown again statistically in more detail in Hooton is that its the western Irish who are tallest and largest boned, not the east where most of the Vikings, Normans etc settled.  I would tend to agree with this from personal observation that people in the west are larger than in the east and midlands.  I understand that the same was noted as being true in Scotland by Beddoes etc and that in Ireland and Scotland the taller people were actually the darker haired areas in the west rather than the fairer areas in the east.  My overall impression is the same as what Hooton concluded, that the older element in the Irish population were a fairly tall large boned people and that the east has later elements that were shorter and more slightly built.  Hooton also observed that (contrary to modern myth) that the western Irish had fairer and frecklier skins than those of the east and he found the less fair skinned element more in and around the towns along the east and south coasts. This tends to agree with the descriptions of outsiders in the period 1200-1600 or so which tended to describe the native Irish as large with clear or ruddy complextions.  The frecklyness of women in particular is commented on by several sources of those periods.  Of course though there was always a mixture so its a generalisation.  

One thing I do find odd though is that depictions of Irishmen in the 1200-1600 period seem to almost always depict the native Irish as yellow haird, something that is well out of step with modern reality.  One English source even described long  yellow hair as being 'like an Irishman'.  That I do find strange.  
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:41:26 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2012, 06:36:50 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys. 



In Ireland , Oldcroghan man was 6’6” tall while Clonycavan man was only 5’2”, which was the same size (IIRC) as avg prisoners from Culloden 2000 years later.
Northern Pict Brochs were supposedly built for very small people.
If you visit 1700's buildings you'll generally see most people were far smaller.

many plains natives in 1800's America were tall. Americans in general taller in comparison to Irish, Irish taller than British, British taller than Dutchmen.
Now Dutchmen are tallest.




Before those 2 bodies were found the only Irish Iron Age bog body in the Irish national museum was a guy from Galway and I think he was 6ft 3.  These two tall bog bodies must have looked like absolute giants in that period. 

As for Medieval period, the best demonstration of shortness is the door height.  I am well over 6ft and have bashed the middle of my forehead off Medieval door lintels at Irish Norman castles a couple of times wheen not paying attention (almost knocked myself out once).  Considering they were built for the elite its pretty clear the average height in Medieval times was not high even among the Norman nobles with all their resources.
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sernam
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2012, 06:46:28 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys.  

In many European Cultures it seems that tall,  and blue eyed is prized. I remember reading something about an old Irish manuscript that refered to the Cruithne as small, dark haired, dark eyed and "shifty".

My Dad fit the physical description, but he was as honest as the day was long!

I might be wrong but I think the reference to that was a much later Scottish history refering to the Creenys of Rhinns of Galloway (near Stranraer and Portpatrick) in Scotland who some have extrapolated as being Irish Cruithne refugees who settled the are in the Medieval period after losing their lands to Normans etc.  That movement is more speculation of antiquarians than certainty though.  

It was used as part of the Scotland-Ulster-Scotland-Ulster multiple rebound movement model in the Cruithin books by Adamson.There is probably a grain of truth that the Cruithin may have had north British Iron Age links and some of them may have left for Scotland in the Medieval period and become the Creenys of Galloway and finally some of their descendants may have returned in the Plantation of Ulster but it is hugely overstated in the Cruithin books and they would surely have been a tiny element in the plantation of Ulster.  However, as I posted before there is a huge shared element in Ireland and Scotland in terms of L21 clusters that surnames and geography show is not down to the Plantation of Ulster.  Its an ancient link that is very clear in archaeology of many periods.  


No Doubt, since there were Irish–English like the Cullen’s brought in as settlers & I often wonder the ancestry of some names like the Hanlon’s . There was various back & forth what w King John’s anger at Burke of Ulster & granting its lands to lowland lords & the later Bissett killer establishing himself,intermarriages, etc. but those Ian Adamson claims only belong to some unionist mythology/religion.




« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:47:01 PM by sernam » Logged
sernam
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2012, 07:12:28 PM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys. 



In Ireland , Oldcroghan man was 6’6” tall while Clonycavan man was only 5’2”, which was the same size (IIRC) as avg prisoners from Culloden 2000 years later.
Northern Pict Brochs were supposedly built for very small people.
If you visit 1700's buildings you'll generally see most people were far smaller.

many plains natives in 1800's America were tall. Americans in general taller in comparison to Irish, Irish taller than British, British taller than Dutchmen.
Now Dutchmen are tallest.




Before those 2 bodies were found the only Irish Iron Age bog body in the Irish national museum was a guy from Galway and I think he was 6ft 3.  These two tall bog bodies must have looked like absolute giants in that period. 

As for Medieval period, the best demonstration of shortness is the door height.  I am well over 6ft and have bashed the middle of my forehead off Medieval door lintels at Irish Norman castles a couple of times wheen not paying attention (almost knocked myself out once).  Considering they were built for the elite its pretty clear the average height in Medieval times was not high even among the Norman nobles with all their resources.

I can sympathize having gone through some castles there, but even colonial doorways & staircases are very small.

I’m not sure about Normans but Angevin, Henry II, was supposed to be up there, well over 6', mustn't have been fun walking about.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2012, 05:26:36 AM »

It seems to me that the famine and Victorian era really brought about a sea change in terms of how the physical qualities of the Irish were described.  Prior to that period the comments on the Irish were generally very positive in terms of size, stength, stamina, athleticism etc but afterwards there is a generally negative attitude.  This clearly is partly political but the famine did have a huge impact and the Irish did go from being the tallest in Europe pre-famine to being well down the ranks and have never recovered a positon at the upper end of the height tables in Europe.  I think though you can see a big height jump in the current teenagers who largely grew up in the economic boom period in Ireland (or at least the classes who most benefitted). 
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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2012, 05:27:53 AM »

There's a reference to the Gaels being small and the Picts being 'pygmy s' compared to the Norsemen in a monastic account (I can't remember the author). I don't know of any archeological evidence to support this. I'd expect Norse warrior raiders to be taller than average any way, warriors often are the bigger guys.  

He maybe had a padded shock absorbing lining in his crown :0)

In Ireland , Oldcroghan man was 6’6” tall while Clonycavan man was only 5’2”, which was the same size (IIRC) as avg prisoners from Culloden 2000 years later.
Northern Pict Brochs were supposedly built for very small people.
If you visit 1700's buildings you'll generally see most people were far smaller.

many plains natives in 1800's America were tall. Americans in general taller in comparison to Irish, Irish taller than British, British taller than Dutchmen.
Now Dutchmen are tallest.




Before those 2 bodies were found the only Irish Iron Age bog body in the Irish national museum was a guy from Galway and I think he was 6ft 3.  These two tall bog bodies must have looked like absolute giants in that period.  

As for Medieval period, the best demonstration of shortness is the door height.  I am well over 6ft and have bashed the middle of my forehead off Medieval door lintels at Irish Norman castles a couple of times wheen not paying attention (almost knocked myself out once).  Considering they were built for the elite its pretty clear the average height in Medieval times was not high even among the Norman nobles with all their resources.

I can sympathize having gone through some castles there, but even colonial doorways & staircases are very small.

I’m not sure about Normans but Angevin, Henry II, was supposed to be up there, well over 6', mustn't have been fun walking about.


He maybe had a padded shock absorbing lining in his crown :0)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 05:28:24 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Dubhthach
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« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2012, 05:06:06 AM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis.  

There is an even better correspondence between La Tene material and Cruithin tribes.  In the earliest sources there was no single ethnicity called the Gaels.  The Irish were a number of sub-ethnicities or strata described as Errain, Cruithin etc.  The concept of a single Gaelic ethnicity and Gaels in general seems to have been devised in the early Medieval period by Latinate writters to create a unified national history when in reality there were several strata and many tribes and no unity.  The giveaway is the name Gael is not even Irish.  Its British (Welsh).  The Gaelic language is very old but the concept of 'Gaels' is nowhere near as old.  In general tribal people see differences rather than unity and names like Scot, Pict, Gael etc seem to not have been native terms and were used by outsiders or latinate writters to create an umbrella term.

I agree to a large extent but as you mention elsewhere the Irish had terms for foreigners or at least others not from Ireland, gall, so there must’ve been some sort of collective identity.  
Of course Welsh speakers were using Prydyn (Pretani) for Pict


There actual is a word, however most people don't know it ;-) it's:
Féni

This word is the root of the later Fian (plural Fianna), members of a Fian/Fianna were called: fénnid

Another good example where the word comes up is in the word for the law (Brehon law in english): fénechas -- basically Irish/freeman's law.

Proto-Goidelic underwent a sound change where Proto-Celtic V/W (sometimes written as U) mutated to a f sound. As a result Veni -> Féni, in proto-brythonic the sound change was from a V/W -> gw

Generally it's regarded that both féni and Guoidel (old-welsh) share common root in Proto-IE.

Anyways if you look at Ptolemy/roman sources you see the word "veni" shows up as part of tribal names all over the place.

Here's some extracts from DIL: (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old/middle irish)

Quote
fénech
o-ā (Féne) belonging to the féni ; of old or genuine Irish stock : in accordance with the customs of the féni (: clérech in follg. verse exx.) : rop f.¤ `versed in legal lore'  Tec. Corm. § 6. 13 . lasan fialchas fenech  ZCP x 344 § 20 . oclach ... arusc fenech (`of Irish speech ' Thurneysen, taking word as gp. But `a.f.' may be a cheville)  Snedgus u. Mac R. 10.7 . a tig rig recht [leg.  in rechta] fenich with the law of the féni   12.1 . ba fecht feneach (chev.),  Anecd. i 73 § 214 .

Quote
fénechas
o,m. also fenchas (hence by glossators somet. confounded with senchas which was supposed to be derived from it by `cendfochrus,' the substitution of one initial for another,  Laws i 32.34  Auraic. 5384 . fenchas ... is he in gnathach indiu `senchas'  ACC § 1 Comm.  ( LU 485 ). feanchus .i. seanchus, O'Cl.). The traditional customs and regulations of the féni taken as a whole, including the body of the ancient law and somet. the `bérla Féne' ; `native customary law', Binchy,  Críth G. vocab., p. 88 . (Thurney- sen,  Bürgsch. § 59 n ., renders it `Uberlieferung der Fēni, Irenrecht ', and adds that the phr. `ara-chan fēnechus' is used to introduce a legal statement couched in poetic- rhetorical style, a `roscad') : na cuic curu ata taithmechta la Feine .i. ... do reir in feinechais,  Laws i 52.23 Comm.  is a fenechus (.i. i ssenchus .i. ni i lleabraib ni hi cain) rosuidiged dire lethard do gradaib tuaithe,  BCrólige § 5 . dianadbe feinechas (.i. madia roib riar dligidh in fenechais do damthain do),  Laws iv 18.21 (20z) . Dist. from Senchus [Már] and Críth Gablach : na se ba fuilit a fut Ḟeinichais, ┐ it inann ┐ na cuig seoit fuilit isin tSenchus, ┐ na se samaisce fuilit isin Crich Gablach,  O'C. 2545  (<  Eg. 88 , 45 ). amhail isbeir i fut Fenechais : ni nascat cuma comorba, etc. ,  Laws i 186.13 . co n-abuir tall i fut Ḟeineachuis, nach dilius daghrath, etc. ,  ii 270.16 . a cumlechtaib Feine .i. a com- slechtib in feinechais  i 182.21 . is fás fenechas i condeilgg ferbb ṅDe the common law is void in comparison with the words of God   ACC 52  (= fénechas ic ferbaib Dé  LU 789 ).  Corm. Y 584 . tucaid a denma ainceas brethemnais do cuir [leg.  chur ?] for Cumain ... iar leghud leighind ┐ nir legh Fenechas roimhe riam, co ndechaid isin tuaisceart dia foglaim,  O'C. 1046  (<  H 3.18 , 436 b ). isat airimda bretha rechta isin feneochus  YBL 183 b 20  =  IT iii 193.11 . ni dēmad fir hĒrenn fīr fear ... na feineachus flatha dūine tar ēis Fhir D. do thuitim linn  ZCP x 297.29 . a lucht imdénma in ḟenchuis `ye that adorn the code of law '  Met. Dinds. iii 54.10 . Féinechas Hérenn : Clúain Húama `the Jurisprudence of Ireland-Cloyne '  Triads 12 . Cluain Lethan ardchathair ḟenechais Erenn  LB 206  marg.  dobreth ardchennus ┐ comhairle ┐ fenechus Érend do Morann  ZCP xi 64.15 . Seanchus ┐ Feneachus na hEreann do ghlanadh ┐ do scriobhadh ar tteclamadh ... seinleabhar nEreann co haonmaighin  FM 438 . oide foircetail hi ffeineachus (`i.e. , in the Brehon law,' O'Don.)  FM v 1682.15 . M. Mac Aedhagain, sai Erend a mbreithemhnacht fenachais  ALC ii 592.3 . breitheamhain ḟéineachais Uladh,  Keat. iii 172 . conaimes gart fri féne fáth (.i. féle dhó ar a foáith do rér an ḟéneachais ona feraibh nāraibh),  Ériu xiii 51.22 . la Feine ... (... .i. do reir in Feinechais),  Laws i 84.23 . Transf. of foreign law and custom : Ailfrid ... ró ordnead recht ┐ féneachus na Saxan  FM 900 . In wider sense : fenechus (.i. oglachus) ┐ maith do denum friumb duit traditional justice, fair dealing (?)  IT iii 242.1 . Cf.  cen cop fial fri fenechus `though he be not liberal to warriors ' [generous in observing custom  (?). Of a niggardly satirist from whom a king is seeking hospitality],  Hib. Min. 65.11 . Equated with `bérla Féne' : Berla Feine .i. in Feinechus no araile berla robui ag Feinius ar leith,  Auraic. 4622 . goar .i. solus isin Fenic[h]us (no isin Breatnais)  633 . is de asbert in file do Scotaib isin ḟenechus : Conétaigti, etc.   LB 146 a 29 . Cf.  Bérla Féine Hérenn : Corcach (with gl. : .i. an iomat breithemhuin ... nó sgol féinechuis ann),  Triads 16 .

Quote
fían
fian féne ḟéinne Fianghal Fianghail -uil Fiangaile fíangalach Fiangalaich
Keywords: driving; pur-; suing; hunting; band; warriors; warpath; band; roving; hunting; troop; fighting-men; warrior-bands; military caste; fianna; fíana; roving; band; fian; -warrior; company; number; persons; shield-bearers; game; chessmen; warrior; General; warrior-shout; fighting; field; fight; hunting-bothy; hut; shelter; encampment; huts; comrade; arms; mutual; friend; board; chess; men; idle; sport; hunting-slaughter; kill-; ing; game; rising; warriors; battle; raid; warlike; accoutrements; hunting; booth; osiers; valor; valiant; bolt; pole; pike; spear
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 05:07:22 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2012, 06:32:14 AM »

I notice the map of supposedly Pictish areas (by Eoin McNeil I think it was) corresponds to 'loyalist strong holds at present. I don' know if this coincidental or suggests a connection to Scotland. I doesn't line up with the plantation to well. Then again this N.Ireland and politics is an issue that frequently influences historical analysis.  

There is an even better correspondence between La Tene material and Cruithin tribes.  In the earliest sources there was no single ethnicity called the Gaels.  The Irish were a number of sub-ethnicities or strata described as Errain, Cruithin etc.  The concept of a single Gaelic ethnicity and Gaels in general seems to have been devised in the early Medieval period by Latinate writters to create a unified national history when in reality there were several strata and many tribes and no unity.  The giveaway is the name Gael is not even Irish.  Its British (Welsh).  The Gaelic language is very old but the concept of 'Gaels' is nowhere near as old.  In general tribal people see differences rather than unity and names like Scot, Pict, Gael etc seem to not have been native terms and were used by outsiders or latinate writters to create an umbrella term.

I agree to a large extent but as you mention elsewhere the Irish had terms for foreigners or at least others not from Ireland, gall, so there must’ve been some sort of collective identity.  
Of course Welsh speakers were using Prydyn (Pretani) for Pict


There actual is a word, however most people don't know it ;-) it's:
Féni

This word is the root of the later Fian (plural Fianna), members of a Fian/Fianna were called: fénnid

Another good example where the word comes up is in the word for the law (Brehon law in english): fénechas -- basically Irish/freeman's law.

Proto-Goidelic underwent a sound change where Proto-Celtic V/W (sometimes written as U) mutated to a f sound. As a result Veni -> Féni, in proto-brythonic the sound change was from a V/W -> gw

Generally it's regarded that both féni and Guoidel (old-welsh) share common root in Proto-IE.

Anyways if you look at Ptolemy/roman sources you see the word "veni" shows up as part of tribal names all over the place.

Here's some extracts from DIL: (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old/middle irish)

Quote
fénech
o-ā (Féne) belonging to the féni ; of old or genuine Irish stock : in accordance with the customs of the féni (: clérech in follg. verse exx.) : rop f.¤ `versed in legal lore'  Tec. Corm. § 6. 13 . lasan fialchas fenech  ZCP x 344 § 20 . oclach ... arusc fenech (`of Irish speech ' Thurneysen, taking word as gp. But `a.f.' may be a cheville)  Snedgus u. Mac R. 10.7 . a tig rig recht [leg.  in rechta] fenich with the law of the féni   12.1 . ba fecht feneach (chev.),  Anecd. i 73 § 214 .

Quote
fénechas
o,m. also fenchas (hence by glossators somet. confounded with senchas which was supposed to be derived from it by `cendfochrus,' the substitution of one initial for another,  Laws i 32.34  Auraic. 5384 . fenchas ... is he in gnathach indiu `senchas'  ACC § 1 Comm.  ( LU 485 ). feanchus .i. seanchus, O'Cl.). The traditional customs and regulations of the féni taken as a whole, including the body of the ancient law and somet. the `bérla Féne' ; `native customary law', Binchy,  Críth G. vocab., p. 88 . (Thurney- sen,  Bürgsch. § 59 n ., renders it `Uberlieferung der Fēni, Irenrecht ', and adds that the phr. `ara-chan fēnechus' is used to introduce a legal statement couched in poetic- rhetorical style, a `roscad') : na cuic curu ata taithmechta la Feine .i. ... do reir in feinechais,  Laws i 52.23 Comm.  is a fenechus (.i. i ssenchus .i. ni i lleabraib ni hi cain) rosuidiged dire lethard do gradaib tuaithe,  BCrólige § 5 . dianadbe feinechas (.i. madia roib riar dligidh in fenechais do damthain do),  Laws iv 18.21 (20z) . Dist. from Senchus [Már] and Críth Gablach : na se ba fuilit a fut Ḟeinichais, ┐ it inann ┐ na cuig seoit fuilit isin tSenchus, ┐ na se samaisce fuilit isin Crich Gablach,  O'C. 2545  (<  Eg. 88 , 45 ). amhail isbeir i fut Fenechais : ni nascat cuma comorba, etc. ,  Laws i 186.13 . co n-abuir tall i fut Ḟeineachuis, nach dilius daghrath, etc. ,  ii 270.16 . a cumlechtaib Feine .i. a com- slechtib in feinechais  i 182.21 . is fás fenechas i condeilgg ferbb ṅDe the common law is void in comparison with the words of God   ACC 52  (= fénechas ic ferbaib Dé  LU 789 ).  Corm. Y 584 . tucaid a denma ainceas brethemnais do cuir [leg.  chur ?] for Cumain ... iar leghud leighind ┐ nir legh Fenechas roimhe riam, co ndechaid isin tuaisceart dia foglaim,  O'C. 1046  (<  H 3.18 , 436 b ). isat airimda bretha rechta isin feneochus  YBL 183 b 20  =  IT iii 193.11 . ni dēmad fir hĒrenn fīr fear ... na feineachus flatha dūine tar ēis Fhir D. do thuitim linn  ZCP x 297.29 . a lucht imdénma in ḟenchuis `ye that adorn the code of law '  Met. Dinds. iii 54.10 . Féinechas Hérenn : Clúain Húama `the Jurisprudence of Ireland-Cloyne '  Triads 12 . Cluain Lethan ardchathair ḟenechais Erenn  LB 206  marg.  dobreth ardchennus ┐ comhairle ┐ fenechus Érend do Morann  ZCP xi 64.15 . Seanchus ┐ Feneachus na hEreann do ghlanadh ┐ do scriobhadh ar tteclamadh ... seinleabhar nEreann co haonmaighin  FM 438 . oide foircetail hi ffeineachus (`i.e. , in the Brehon law,' O'Don.)  FM v 1682.15 . M. Mac Aedhagain, sai Erend a mbreithemhnacht fenachais  ALC ii 592.3 . breitheamhain ḟéineachais Uladh,  Keat. iii 172 . conaimes gart fri féne fáth (.i. féle dhó ar a foáith do rér an ḟéneachais ona feraibh nāraibh),  Ériu xiii 51.22 . la Feine ... (... .i. do reir in Feinechais),  Laws i 84.23 . Transf. of foreign law and custom : Ailfrid ... ró ordnead recht ┐ féneachus na Saxan  FM 900 . In wider sense : fenechus (.i. oglachus) ┐ maith do denum friumb duit traditional justice, fair dealing (?)  IT iii 242.1 . Cf.  cen cop fial fri fenechus `though he be not liberal to warriors ' [generous in observing custom  (?). Of a niggardly satirist from whom a king is seeking hospitality],  Hib. Min. 65.11 . Equated with `bérla Féne' : Berla Feine .i. in Feinechus no araile berla robui ag Feinius ar leith,  Auraic. 4622 . goar .i. solus isin Fenic[h]us (no isin Breatnais)  633 . is de asbert in file do Scotaib isin ḟenechus : Conétaigti, etc.   LB 146 a 29 . Cf.  Bérla Féine Hérenn : Corcach (with gl. : .i. an iomat breithemhuin ... nó sgol féinechuis ann),  Triads 16 .

Quote
fían
fian féne ḟéinne Fianghal Fianghail -uil Fiangaile fíangalach Fiangalaich
Keywords: driving; pur-; suing; hunting; band; warriors; warpath; band; roving; hunting; troop; fighting-men; warrior-bands; military caste; fianna; fíana; roving; band; fian; -warrior; company; number; persons; shield-bearers; game; chessmen; warrior; General; warrior-shout; fighting; field; fight; hunting-bothy; hut; shelter; encampment; huts; comrade; arms; mutual; friend; board; chess; men; idle; sport; hunting-slaughter; kill-; ing; game; rising; warriors; battle; raid; warlike; accoutrements; hunting; booth; osiers; valor; valiant; bolt; pole; pike; spear

I had come across the Feni thing before in discussion about Irish law tracts etc.  It is interesting and as you say its not known widely.  Was there not some sort of class terms like Grad Flaith and Grad Feine (my spellings are probably wrong) that suggest that the latter meant the ordinary people while the former meant the nobles. 

As for the Goidil I thought the first part was from Gwyddel which had the root Gwydd (Irish Fid, old Celtic Vid/Ved='wood' rather than the Ven root in Feni.  I had however heard that there was a connection between the element in Gwynned in Wales (I think which is from Venedotia or something like that) and the Irish Feni.  I tend to think that Feni meant the ordinary people and commoner young warriors.  Was there not also a term Bearla Feinne or something like that which seemed to mean 'language of the people' or something like that.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2012, 06:45:01 AM »

what is up with the DF27 thread?  I cant post.  Its like its locked.
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« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2012, 06:51:05 AM »

Yes I think you are right on that, I'm going off memory, either way it's quite an archaic word, that generally got tied up with legal system:

gnáthbérla = "ordinarly speech" (common man)
senbérla = "old speech"
bérla Féine = "legal speech" (of the laweyers etc.)
bérla na filed = "poetic speech"
bérla tóbaide = "select speech" (high quality etc.)
bérla fortchide = "obscure/cryptic speech"

Of course in old days Bérla (modern Béarla) meant language where's now it literally means English (shortened from Sacsbhéarla = saxon speech)

What it meant was the non noble freemen, obviously if you were a "serf"/slave you weren't considered part of the féni

Basically you had five main classes in society:

  • Kings of several grades, from the king of the tuath or cantred up to the king of Ireland:  (Rí)
  • Nobles, which class indeed included kings:
(Flaith)
  • Non-noble Freemen with property:
(Aire)
  • Non-noble Freemen without property, or with some, but not sufficient to place them among the class next above :
(céiles)
  • The non-free clauses.

Of course it's interesting that the word Aire is used today to mean government minster! Flaith literally would mean "prince" and is root of many names (Flaherty for example)
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rms2
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« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2012, 08:06:25 AM »

what is up with the DF27 thread?  I cant post.  Its like its locked.

It looks like it was locked somehow. I unlocked it.

I didn't lock it. When I lock a thread, I announce it and usually give some kind of reason. Terry does the same.

I don't know how it got locked, but it's unlocked now.
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