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Author Topic: Worth of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al? / Origins of British people  (Read 6768 times)
eochaidh
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« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2012, 04:49:15 PM »

I often wonder what these authors and researchers would think if they were to read this forum and others like it. I wonder what their reaction would be to the term SNP; a term with which I am certain none are familiar.
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Jean M
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« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2012, 04:52:26 PM »

@ eochaidh

The acronym SNP for single-nucleotide polymorphism was in fact coined by geneticists. We are using it because they do.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:53:50 PM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2012, 04:56:46 PM »

@ eochaidh

The acronym SNP for single-nucleotide polymorphism was in fact coined by geneticists. We are using it because they do.

Is the term used in this new book, "The Genetic History of Europeans"?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:58:15 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2012, 05:07:21 PM »

I was a little surprised, maybe even concerned, to read this (in Box 2 of the new paper):

Quote
Although the end of classical PCR methods is near, the use of NGS is no guarantee for reliable data

Reliability aside, what will we (the living, or nearly so) get, if FTDNA and the other commercial labs switch over to NGS?  I kind of thought PCR based Sanger sequencing was what enabled the allele-counting, STR technique.  Not that I really understand this stuff, mostly I just look at the pictures.
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Jean M
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« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2012, 05:48:22 PM »

Is the term used in this new book, "The Genetic History of Europeans"?

It is not a book. It is a review paper i.e. not an original genetic study, but an overview covering broad trends in the research into the peopling of Europe. It is seven A4 pages of text, plus references. It does explain the acronym SNP (on page 4).

If you are talking about my book, yes I explain the acronym SNP.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 05:58:35 PM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2012, 05:58:06 PM »

I would think that even in a paper called "The Genetic History of Europeans" that the term SNP would be used. I can't even imagine that if someone started a thread on this forum called "The Genetic History of Europeans", they wouldn't use the term SNP in their opening post.

I'm almost completely stupid, yet if I were to try to explain The Genetic History of Europeans to a 14 year old, I would use the term SNP in even a 10 minute talk. Why, I have even done so!  :)
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Jean M
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« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2012, 06:00:31 PM »

@ eochaidh

My apologies. I skimmed through to check, when you asked your question, and missed the point at which they do indeed explain the ancronym SNP - near the top of page 4.

Why not read the paper yourself?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 06:01:40 PM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2012, 06:07:09 PM »

I have attempted to download it with no luck. I'll try again later at home.
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OConnor
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« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2012, 10:00:38 PM »

I believe it has been questioned before, that cremation may be why no pre-beaker adna R1b types have been found yet. I guess it's a very long shot.

Finding G and other adna groups other than R1b it is a wonder to me that no one has questioned if they were slaves. Like when L21 types were found in Norway.

I am not seriously suggesting this is what transpired.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2012, 10:33:59 PM »

I may be way off base, but I get the feeling these guys left out R1b and R1a purposely. I think they are leaning toward an older age of R1b; one that would put it in the Neolithic expansion.

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OConnor
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« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2012, 11:55:37 PM »

do you mean an early neolithic instead of a late neolithic.?
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Mkk
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« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2012, 04:01:36 AM »

do you mean an early neolithic instead of a late neolithic.?
The Neolithic is defined as the time between the adoption of agriculture, and the working of copper. That's why it's called neolithic = new stone. It was theorized my Myres and other authors that R1b spread into Europe with the initial migration of Near Eastern farmers to Europe beggining about 10,000 years ago. But, neither the TRMCA dates nor the aDNA samples have supported this theory. So online hobbyists have theorized that the spread of R1b into Europe took place later, 6000-5000 years ago.
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Jean M
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« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2012, 05:42:10 AM »

I think they are leaning toward an older age of R1b; one that would put it in the Neolithic expansion.

If they wanted to say that, nothing could be easier. They could have cited several published papers which do so. Instead they criticised the whole approach of using modern DNA to trace a cline, and then trying to pin a date on it.
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authun
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« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2012, 07:50:06 AM »

I would think that even in a paper called "The Genetic History of Europeans" that the term SNP would be used.

Yes they use it.

"Third, studies differ in the type of molecular data considered [classical allele frequencies, DNA sequences, single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), short tandem repeats (STRs)] and the kind of inference approaches used."
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authun
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« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2012, 07:56:48 AM »

I may be way off base, but I get the feeling these guys left out R1b and R1a purposely. I think they are leaning toward an older age of R1b; one that would put it in the Neolithic expansion.

That's just your personal paranoia. You need to read these studies before accusing the authors of scientific fraud.

The number of SNPs identified in ancient remains amounts to a handful over a period covering thousands of years. Even with modern statistical methods, it is impossible to make any inferences as to what was not in europe. The only sound data is if, for example, G2 was found in a grave dated at some point in time. It is not possible to predict the presence of anything not yet found.
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razyn
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« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2012, 08:13:30 AM »

they criticised the whole approach of using modern DNA to trace a cline, and then trying to pin a date on it.

As well they might, they are looking for harder science than we are doing here.  But a big part of that is lack of precision in a couple of our variables, the mutation rate and the length of a generation.  It doesn't mean that SNPs don't have clines; but every one of them could use a little calibration (notably by digging up some dead guys in dated contexts who have the SNP), and we don't know how many SNPs in a given lineage exist that we haven't yet found.  But we're working on it, and we're getting closer.

And btw I posted about an example of that, not long ago -- to an overwhelming chorus of nobody responding:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10645.msg132339#msg132339
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Mkk
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« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2012, 08:16:36 AM »

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That's just your personal paranoia. You need to read these studies before accusing the authors of scientific fraud.
Nobody's accusing the authors of "scientific fraud". What we're saying is their paper was lacking, as it didn't properly take into account post-Neolithic migrations into Europe. It's hard to blame them for it though, as the only (as far as I know) author that's published in the scientific literature about the origins of e.g R1b is Anatole Klyosov, who only recently published his Arabins paper.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2012, 08:22:26 AM »

... It's hard to blame them for it though, as the only (as far as I know) author that's published in the scientific literature about the origins of e.g R1b is Anatole Klyosov, who only recently published his Arabins paper.
You might want to google "R1b" in tandem with "Myres", "Wells", "Barlaresque" and "Busby", to find a few other studies.
I've got links to them here:  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/links/
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authun
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« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2012, 08:36:40 AM »

Nobody's accusing the authors of "scientific fraud".

Scientific fraud is exactly what is alleged in this statement:

"I get the feeling these guys left out R1b and R1a purposely. I think they are leaning toward an older age of R1b; one that would put it in the Neolithic expansion."

If you deliberately leave something out because you wish for a pre determined outcome, that is scientific fraud. There is no question about it.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2012, 08:43:18 AM »

Nobody's accusing the authors of "scientific fraud".

Scientific fraud is exactly what is alleged in this statement:

"I get the feeling these guys left out R1b and R1a purposely. I think they are leaning toward an older age of R1b; one that would put it in the Neolithic expansion."

If you deliberately leave something out because you wish for a pre determined outcome, that is scientific fraud. There is no question about it.

Lol, you're a funny, funny man Authurn! You left off my opening line, "I may be way of base....". You're also overlooking the line "I get the feeling..."

Leaving out something purposely isn't fraud. You may want to address it later and are currently seting the groundwork.

Do you exercise or nap?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:43:59 AM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mkk
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« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2012, 08:45:04 AM »

... It's hard to blame them for it though, as the only (as far as I know) author that's published in the scientific literature about the origins of e.g R1b is Anatole Klyosov, who only recently published his Arabins paper.
You might want to google "R1b" in tandem with "Myres", "Wells", "Barlaresque" and "Busby", to find a few other studies.
I've got links to them here:  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/links/
Sorry, I meant that Klyosov was the only author to posit a Bronze age origin of R1b in Central-Western Europe.
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authun
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« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2012, 09:05:06 AM »

Message Deleted.  Terry
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 01:17:59 PM by Terry Barton » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2012, 09:26:57 AM »

Oh dear me! Someone is angry! Cocktail?
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Jean M
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« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2012, 09:48:38 AM »

@ authun

Dr. Roy King is a member of the English Molgen forum that was set up to replace DNA forums. However the latest offering as a replacement sacrificed speed for solid preparation and got its moderation in place before opening, which is a big plus. They seem unlikely to let in known troublemakers. They are looking for high standards of contribution, and so seem most likely to attract academics. Could suit you.

Mark Thomas has been helpful to me too. I had a copy of another work of his re migration that is still in press.  It certainly is helpful of him to supply a copy online of this landmark review paper.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 10:44:59 AM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2012, 10:58:22 AM »

Okay, so the authors of the paper left out R1b and R1a because:

A) They are unaware of R1b and R1a

B) They don't think that R1b and R1a have any relevence to the genetic history of Europe.

C) They left R1b and R1a out purposely for undisclosed reasons.

D) (Insert your own idea here)

EDIT: Also, please note that I offered my opinion with the caveat "I may be way off base" and "I think". I also didn't call names.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 11:05:58 AM by eochaidh » Logged

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