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Author Topic: Worth of Oppenheimer, Sykes et. al? / Origins of British people  (Read 7242 times)
Jdean
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« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2012, 04:57:59 PM »

Pony & trap!
Cheers,
Bob
PS Burk, pronounced as per lurk, is pretty commonly used on TV, however they did actually slip in the cruder 'Berk' pronounced Bark during an episode of BBC TV's 'Fools & Horses' once. They didn't get a single complaint. I can't fully explain it here, except to say there was a famous hunt in Berkshire!

Thanks

Baloney kept coming into my head, which wouldn't make any sense for a Cockney phrase.

Congrats on managing to explaining Burk to the uninitiated as well :)

Edit : Just thought I ought to make it clear to people outside of the UK, just in case they aren't familiar with the phrase, 'burk' now refers to an idiot and I don't think many people even over here know it's true origin though it is in the complete OED.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 06:25:37 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2012, 09:39:13 PM »

is it from 'Burke and Haire' the grave robbers I think?
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authun
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« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2012, 09:49:37 AM »

The important paper which started the continuity theory in Britain is Jim Wilson's Genetic evidence for different male and female roles during cultural transitions in the British Isles (2000).

Wilson starts:

"Archeologists once assumed that the British Isles were settled by successive waves of continental invaders, from Neolithic times onward. Today the pendulum has swung the other way, with archeologists tending to postulate considerable cultural exchange such as the establishment of trading networks, with little or no movement of people. It is likely, however, that the extent of genetic continuity in the face of cultural change has varied from case to case."

He goes on to explain why there may be continuity in the paternal lineages, arguments based on linguistic, mtDNA diveristy and blood type of the Basques, not yDNA of the British at all and warns the reader:

"We know of no other study, however, that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque and the Celtics peaking populations of Britain."

In 2005, Santos Alonso comments:

"the idea of a Basque genetic pool that shows little influence from both the Neolithic and later population flows, has spread through the literature as a circular argument that has led to use the Basque population as the representative gene pool of the first modern human settlers of Europe" and the study, 'The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape' concluded:

"However, the strong genetic drift experienced by the Basques does not allow us to consider Basques either the only or the best representatives of the ancestral European gene pool. Contrary to previous suggestions, we do not observe any particular link between Basques and Celtic populations beyond that provided by the Paleolithic ancestry common to European populations, nor we find evidence supporting Basques as the focus of major population expansions."

This was published around the same time as Oppenheimer's book but Oppenheimer does not take this evidence into account. Rather, Oppenheimer asumes Jim Wilson's hypothesis to be true despite Jim Wilson's warning that there is no proof of it.
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gtc
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« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2012, 10:30:58 AM »

is it from 'Burke and Haire' the grave robbers I think?

See Castlebob's explanation.
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Jdean
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« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2012, 08:36:54 PM »

is it from 'Burke and Haire' the grave robbers I think?

See Castlebob's explanation.

Yep, or look it up in the OED
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« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2012, 10:11:16 PM »

Castlebobs right, Ilooked up 'Burke and Haire' and found nothing. It was in the extreme SE of England I heard it used didn't know what it ment and still don't,  it's probably just made up. 
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gtc
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« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2012, 11:53:07 AM »

See Castlebob's explanation.

Yep, or look it up in the OED

All of this talk puts me in mind of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBdLhCbgJy8
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Castlebob
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« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2012, 12:12:48 PM »

There are  a lot of modern Cockney sayings these days - some are made up & stick. Some of the young lads struggle to make themselves understood when speaking to the  older generations. Young lads say thing have gone 'Pete Tong' for wrong. I'm not sure , but think Pete Tong was a 1970s  star?
Anyway, I think I'd better stop now & leave the topic to get back on track!
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 05:43:55 PM by Castlebob » Logged

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Castlebob
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« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2012, 12:33:20 PM »

Back in serious mode: Has Oppenheimer made any comments in recent months re his original theories? It would be fascinating to know if he still stands by his work.
Cheers,
Bob
PS I have to say it must be a thankless task going into print on a fast-moving science such as DNA.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2012, 01:17:59 PM »

Back in serious mode: Has Oppenheimer made any comments in recent months re his original theories? It would be fascinating to know if he still stands by his work.
Cheers,
Bob
PS I have to say it must be a thankless task going into print on a fast-moving science such as DNA.

What about Spencer Wells and natonal geographic, last time I cheked their site has the Iberia refuge idea for R1b and the Basques described as descendants of cro magnons.
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I-L126
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gtc
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« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2012, 01:27:47 PM »

What about Spencer Wells and natonal geographic, last time I cheked their site has the Iberia refuge idea for R1b and the Basques described as descendants of cro magnons.

Wells is about to publish again in association with Geno 2.0

And I was told earlier this year that a revised edition his Deep Ancestry is supposedly in the works.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2012, 01:37:27 PM »

Good, I think Wells is a good public face for the field of genetics.
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rms2
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« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2012, 01:49:13 PM »

I would be surprised if he changes his original position much, although he did leave himself an out in Deep Ancestry when he spoke of the disconnect in Europe between y-dna and mtDNA.

Quote from: Spencer Wells
Although we see connections between western Asia and European mtDNA lineages, it is not at all clear that these lineages entered Europe from Central Asia. This may be due to incomplete sampling, or perhaps incomplete knowledge about the extent of mtDNA diversity in Central Asia (only a few hundred Central Asian samples have been studied, as opposed to tens of thousands of Europeans). At the moment it appears that most mtDNA diversity in Europe came from the Middle East, while the large R1a1 and R1b clans on the male side have an ultimate origin in Central Asia. Reconciling these stories is one of the goals of the Genographic Project (Deep Ancestry, p. 104).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 01:49:40 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mkk
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« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2012, 02:18:55 PM »

Back in serious mode: Has Oppenheimer made any comments in recent months re his original theories? It would be fascinating to know if he still stands by his work.
Cheers,
Bob
PS I have to say it must be a thankless task going into print on a fast-moving science such as DNA.

What about Spencer Wells and natonal geographic, last time I cheked their site has the Iberia refuge idea for R1b and the Basques described as descendants of cro magnons.
Yep, it still says that on it's website.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2012, 02:38:43 PM »

One giveaway about these books is that you can pick them up for the price of a beer now.

Actually, the price of a gumball is more like it (check eBay or Amazon). BTW, beer will always be better than books--it brings us wisdom in the most profound ways.

Arch

lol true.  You could hardly give away a copy now.  Still, it was briefly interesting and provided a talking point.  Hopefully a new popular book will undo the new myths this created.  Maybe Jean's book will do the job!

When is Jean's book coming out?
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Mkk
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« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2012, 03:38:16 PM »

One giveaway about these books is that you can pick them up for the price of a beer now.

Actually, the price of a gumball is more like it (check eBay or Amazon). BTW, beer will always be better than books--it brings us wisdom in the most profound ways.

Arch

lol true.  You could hardly give away a copy now.  Still, it was briefly interesting and provided a talking point.  Hopefully a new popular book will undo the new myths this created.  Maybe Jean's book will do the job!

When is Jean's book coming out?
The provisional publication date is September 2013.

This from the building history website. For a preview you can put it's into Way Back machine.
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Jean M
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« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2012, 05:36:26 AM »

In the meantime, there is a new review paper out, which gives a similar overall picture to mine:
Ron Pinhasi, Mark G. Thomas, Michael Hofreiter, Mathias Currat, Joachim Burger, The genetic history of Europeans, Trends in Genetics.

For those who have access, there is a copy in the Mini-Library > Population Genetics > Europe.

Or Dienekes sucks out the marrow.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 05:37:33 AM by Jean M » Logged
authun
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« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2012, 01:41:24 PM »

In the meantime, there is a new review paper out, which gives a similar overall picture to mine:
Ron Pinhasi, Mark G. Thomas, Michael Hofreiter, Mathias Currat, Joachim Burger, The genetic history of Europeans, Trends in Genetics.

For those who have access, there is a copy in the Mini-Library > Population Genetics > Europe.

Or Dienekes sucks out the marrow.


Here is a pre press version of The Genetic History of Europeans, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2012/TIGS_972_final_1_.pdf
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Mkk
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« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2012, 02:18:02 PM »

The experts are still several steps behind the amateurs, it seems.

While they begin to consider Neolithic migrations to Europe, they seem almost oblivious to the fact that the two most common European lineages - r1a and r1b - are absent so far from Neolithic sites.
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Jean M
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« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2012, 02:26:11 PM »

@ Mkk

This paper is actually up to speed. Though it does not talk specifically about R1a or  R1b, and it is careful not to make too much of the astonishing dominance of G2a in  the Neolithic Y-DNA published so far (after all we haven't got that much), the authors have got the message alright. They make that clear both in the abstract:

Quote
The evolutionary history of modern humans is characterized by numerous migrations driven by environmental change, population pressures, and cultural innovations. In Europe, the events most widely considered to have had a major impact on patterns of genetic diversity are the initial colonization of the continent by anatomically modern humans (AMH), the last glacial maximum, and the Neolithic transition. For some decades it was assumed that the geographical structuring of genetic diversity within Europe was mainly the result of gene flow during and soon after the Neolithic transition, but recent advances in next-generation sequencing (NGS) technologies, computer simulation modeling, and ancient DNA (aDNA) analyses are challenging this simplistic view. Here we review the current knowledge on the evolutionary history of humans in Europe based on archaeological and genetic data.

and these snippets.

Quote
The inferred patterns of discontinuity between Neolithic and modern populations in Europe raise questions about which demographic processes reshaped European genetic variation after the Neolithic transition.... Future research should also reveal the effects of post-Neolithic demographic processes, including migration events, which preliminary data suggest had a major impact upon the distribution of genetic variation. These include events associated with Bronze Age civilizations, Iron Age cultures, and later migrations, including those triggered by the rise and fall of Empires.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 12:54:12 PM by Jean M » Logged
authun
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« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2012, 03:03:34 PM »

they seem almost oblivious to the fact that the two most common European lineages - r1a and r1b - are absent so far from Neolithic sites.

Given that yDNA degenerates so readily and that we have only a tiny handful of results, one cannot say that there was no R1b or R1a at the start of the neolithic, even if one suspects it. In time, a picture will emerge but there is no point in rushing to unsafe conclusions.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2012, 03:05:07 PM »

That is my main gripe with the paper - it does not mention R1a nor R1b and yet it is labeled "The Genetic History of Europeans". Perhaps they did not know about the Bell Beaker R1b, but the discovery of R1a in Corded Ware is quite 'old' now (2008) and should have been included.
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Mkk
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« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2012, 03:56:42 PM »

they seem almost oblivious to the fact that the two most common European lineages - r1a and r1b - are absent so far from Neolithic sites.

Given that yDNA degenerates so readily and that we have only a tiny handful of results, one cannot say that there was no R1b or R1a at the start of the neolithic, even if one suspects it. In time, a picture will emerge but there is no point in rushing to unsafe conclusions.
I agree. But still, along with the evidence from TRMCA's, which fall around the 4500 mark, at the present there's doesn't seem to be much of a case those two haplogroups were common in central-western Europe in the Neolithic. The authors of the paper should atleast have considered these preliminary results.
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Jean M
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« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2012, 04:33:24 PM »

@ Mkk

I suspect that falls into the category of

Quote
Future research should also reveal the effects of post-Neolithic demographic processes, including migration events, which preliminary data suggest had a major impact upon the distribution of genetic variation.

This crew had already developed suspicions that there was limited continuity from the Neolithic on the basis of ancient mtDNA. That and the lack of continuity from the few autosomal results as well is enough I think to be going on with. They have been willing to put down a marker for where things are headed.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:33:56 PM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2012, 04:38:08 PM »

By the way, Spencer Wells appears to approve of the paper. At least he linked to the post on it by Dienekes (from his Facebook account.)  
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:38:42 PM by Jean M » Logged
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