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Author Topic: The 3 E-M96* in East Tyrol compared with YHRD data  (Read 1453 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: July 28, 2012, 07:58:07 PM »

Of course the data shall be studied, but it seems that these haplotypes are ancient European hg. E:

16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 1 >>
17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 1 >>

1 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 10 11 16 19,20 17 16 21 12 >>
1 of 52 Figuig, Morocco [Berber] Afro-Asiatic - Berber Africa
16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 2 >>
16 12 29 22 9 11 13 15,15 1 >>

1 17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 10 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 112 Southern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 2 >>
17 12 30 22 9 12 13 15,16 1 >>
17 12 29 22 10 12 13 15,16 1 >>


1 14 14 31 24 9 11 14 16,17 9 11 14 20 15 16 22 12 >>
1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
13 14 31 24 9 11 14 16,17 4 >>
14 14 31 24 9 11 13 16,17 2 >>
14 14 31 24 9 11 15 16,17 2 >>


10 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 11 14 20 17 17 22 12 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 11 14 20 15 18 21 11 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 12 14 19 15 15 21 12 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 12 14 20 15 16 22 12 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 12 14 20 16 18 24 11 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 13 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 13 14 20 17 15 22 11 >>
2 of 161 South Eastern Poland, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 200 Novi Sad, Serbia [Slovakian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 220 East Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 81 Uzhgorod, Ukraine [Ukrainian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 117 Quindío, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 100 Szeged, Hungary [Hungarian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 64 Zlin, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 60 Marche, Italy [Moroccan] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Europe
1 of 384 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 37 Budapest, Hungary [Ashkenazi Jews] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 774 Rostock, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 151 Lviv, Ukraine [Ukrainian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 287 London, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 114 Nowy Sacz, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 168 Puglia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 59 Missouri, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 31 Doboj-Banja Luka-Bjeljina, Bosnia and Herzegowina [Bosnian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 155 New York City, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 43 Krusevo, Macedonia [Aromun] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 22 Florida, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 34 Indiana, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 111 Kahramanmaras, Turkey [Romani] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Asia
1 of 215 Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 03:14:17 AM »

This writes Mr: Gabennesch on Rootsweb:


“My Y-Chromosome paternal line ancestors have been traced to Vorarlberg, Montafon Valley, Austria. Church records show them there as far back as 1477. There surname was Gavanesche. Because of their surname, I surmise that they had to have been there for well over 1500 + years.
According to the Swiss National Library, this name has something to do with a meadow. A local historian in the Montafon Valley further states that the name has an association with Borst Grass. A thick grass found in mountain meadows once used for bedding.
“Die Erhebung Der Geschichte zum Range einer Wissenschaft by Adolf Rhomberg, 1893” states that Gavanesche is a Rhaetian name.
'Gavanesch' is a"rhätischen Familiennamen in montavon".
Adolf Rhomberg 1860 - 1921 was the Governor of Vorarlberg and noted local historian. Montavon refers to the Montafon Valley located in the Austrian State of Vorarlberg.
Vorarlberg was once part of the ancient Roman Province of Raetia, conquered by Tiberius and Drusus in abt. 15 CE and made a Roman Province by Caesar Augustus in 20 CE [Augustus died on 14, then he was Tiberius]..
My haplotype is E1b1a8a sub-Saharan African. The European Gavanesch, Gabinesch spelling variations have been tested and proved to be E1b1a8a.
According to a study done by Irene Pichler et al of the European Academy of Bolzano, Italy in 2006 titled “Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms”. There are two sub-Saharan African Y-Chromosome individuals in the South Tyrol. What makes these two individuals so interesting is that one has a German name and the other a Rheatoroman name. They have the same nine matching Microsatellite Haplotypes. The study used DYS#19, DYS#388, DYS#390, DYS#391, DYS#392, DYS#393, DYS#426, DYS#389I, DYS389II. Here are the results 15, 12, 21, 11, 11, 13, 11, 13, 32. Through out the study DYS#426 is overstated by 2, this applies to all haplotypes. My Microsatellite Haplotype and the Gavanesche match the two individuals in the Italian Tyrol.
I did WTY and came up with new SNPS L608, L609, L610 and L611. Can you imagine just how bad I would like to have the two individuals in the South Tyrol tested for them?
Walt Gabennesch
Gavanesche”

I have exchanged with him in the past years ton of letters, but his case is different from the haplotypes found in this paper, which are either E-M96* or the most part the Balkan/European E-V13.
That Gabennesch haplotype is the Sub Saharian African E1b1a8a is incontestable, then, even though I tried to demonstrate an ancient presence of it in Europe, that it has come to Europe in Roman Times is the most likable solution. Of course the SNPs he found may tell the story of his family line in these last 2000 years, or, perhaps, more, but we should demonstrate it, and I'd be very glad to do it.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 03:54:46 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 04:37:24 AM »

I have developed the haplotypes suspended before:

1 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 10 12 15 19,21 17 15 21 12 >>
1 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 10 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 1301 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 565 Northern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
16 12 30 22 9 12 13 15,16 4 >> 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 16,16 2 >> 17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 1 >> 16 12 29 22 9 11 13 15,16 1 >> 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 1 >> 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,17 1 >>

1 16 12 29 22 9 11 13 15,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 1177 Antioquia, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
16 12 29 22 10 11 13 15,15 2 >> 16 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 1 >> 16 12 29 22 9 11 14 15,15 1 >> 16 12 29 22 9 11 13 15,16 1 >>

1 17 12 30 22 9 12 13 15,16 10 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 120 Quito, Ecuador [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
16 12 30 22 9 12 13 15,16 4 >> 17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 1 >> 17 12 30 22 9 13 13 15,16 1 >> 17 12 30 22 9 12 13 14,16 1 >> 17 12 30 22 9 12 13 15,17 1 >>

1 17 12 29 22 10 12 13 15,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 26 Pitimandeua, Brazil [African] African Latin America
17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,16 1 >> 17 12 29 22 10 11 13 15,16 1 >>

1 13 14 31 24 10 11 14 16,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 774 Rostock, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
13 14 31 24 9 11 14 16,17 4 >> 13 14 31 24 10 11 13 16,17 21 >> 13 13 30 24 10 11 14 16,17 10 >> 13 14 31 24 11 11 14 16,17 1 >> 13 14 31 24 10 11 14 15,17 1 >> 13 14 31 24 10 11 14 16,16 1 >> 13 14 31 24 10 11 14 16,18 1 >>

etc. etc. But with the 3rd haplotype (13 13-31 24 10 11 13 17-18 10 12 14 20 17 19 24 11) we are shifting to the values of E-V13. What is different are above all DYS458=19 and DYS635=24, and these should be the discriminating values for E-M96.

1 14 14 31 24 9 11 13 16,17 10 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 14 31 24 9 11 13 16,17 10 13 14 20 15 15 22 12 >>
1 of 47 Ahvaz, Iran [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 565 Northern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
None of this is E-M96.

The unique amongst all the European ones with the haplotype  13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 could be this:

1 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 12 14 20 16 18 24 11 >>
1 of 60 Marche, Italy [Moroccan] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Europe

and we come back to a Berber again.


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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 06:07:11 AM »

Of course having the authors tested in the hg. E only M96 and M78 these haplotypes could be everything, but the first, with DYS448=19-20 (and probably also the others), seems linked to African haplotypes, like that of Gabennesch. Only a deep analysis could say how long ago happened the migration.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 07:55:43 AM »

The first haplotype should be E1a1*. This on Wikipedia:

“While there have been no attested exemplars of E1*, its sub-clade, E1a (M33), is found most often in West Africa, and today it is especially common in the region of Mali. One study has found haplogroup E1a-M33 Y-chromosomes in as much as 34% (15/44) of a sample of Malian men. Haplogroup E1a also has been detected among samples obtained from Guinea-Bissau, Moroccan Berbers, Sahrawis, Burkina Faso, northern Cameroon, Senegal, Sudan, Egypt and Portugal (5/553 or approximately 0.9%).
Haplogroup E1a has been detected in North Africa and Europe independently of the ubiquitous E1b1a. Because E1b1a is known to have expanded recently, this leaves open the possibility of an ancient expansion from West Africa into North Africa and Europe of E1a lineages”.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 07:56:39 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rukhsana
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 06:48:50 AM »

So, if you have an account at FTDNA.com, come on over and join our group and help us all put the pieces of this puzzle together!
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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 02:57:10 AM »

“While there have been no attested exemplars of E1*, its sub-clade, E1a (M33), is found most often in West Africa, and today it is especially common in the region of Mali. One study has found haplogroup E1a-M33 Y-chromosomes in as much as 34% (15/44) of a sample of Malian men. Haplogroup E1a also has been detected among samples obtained from Guinea-Bissau, Moroccan Berbers, Sahrawis, Burkina Faso, northern Cameroon, Senegal, Sudan, Egypt and Portugal (5/553 or approximately 0.9%).
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