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Author Topic: Surprise: Our Shaws were neither English nor Scottish, but Irish O'Sheas  (Read 2170 times)
Jared Olar
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« on: July 28, 2012, 11:49:03 AM »

NOTE: Further DNA testing has shown my initial conclusion to have been in error.  Please read my most recent messages in this discussion thread. -- Jared Olar


The 67-marker test of my distant cousin Paul Hardy Shaw doesn't really line up with any of the Shaws in the Shaw DNA Project, but, surprisingly, matches very, very closely to the O'Sheas of County Tipperary, eastern Munster, and in neighboring County Kilkenny and the city of Kilkenny, in Leinster.  Our Shaws trace back to an English Puritan colonist in Massachusetts named John Shaw, born circa 1597 (presumably in England), died circa 1663 in Massachusetts.  Even though culturally and religiously, John and his family were English, our Shaws had an old family tradition that they were not English, but were of Scottish descent.

Well, we're not of Scottish descent -- unless there was a brief sojourn in Scotland between our family's residence in Munster, Ireland, and our time in England and Massachusetts.

I have found that other Irish O'Sheas or Sheas ended up having their name changed to "Shaw" when they came to America in the 1800s -- but in our case it seems the change from Shea to Shaw took place around the 1590s or so, maybe well before that.

I'm amazed!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 09:21:35 AM by Jared Olar » Logged
Jared Olar
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 03:27:00 PM »

A follow-up on my previous comments . . . Having communicated with the O'Shea DNA Project administrators, we'll have to be a little more cautious about affirming that our Shaws were once O'Sheas.  It's a possibility, but it's also possible that we share a common male ancestor with the Kilkenny O'Shea or Shee family.  Even so, we do appear to belong to the Irish Type 4 sub-clade (which would include Anglo-Norman families that settled in Ireland in the 1100s and 1200s), and are closer to the O'Sheas than we are to any English or Scottish Shaws in the Shaw DNA Project.
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Jared Olar
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 02:33:04 AM »

Additional testing has been done on Paul Shaw's y-DNA, and based on the results this week, the O'Shea DNA Project administrators now tell us that there is "little doubt" that our Shaws were descendants of the O'Sheas/O'Shees (or Sheas or Shees) of Counties Tipperary and Kilkenny, Ireland.  So it seems we're Irish Sheas, not English or Scottish Shaws.
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Paul H. Shaw
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 10:15:48 PM »

Additional testing has been done on Paul Shaw's y-DNA, and based on the results this week, the O'Shea DNA Project administrators now tell us that there is "little doubt" that our Shaws were descendants of the O'Sheas/O'Shees (or Sheas or Shees) of Counties Tipperary and Kilkenny, Ireland.  So it seems we're Irish Sheas, not English or Scottish Shaws.

Thanks, Jared, for posting the update. For those who are interested in the y-DNA67 testing details, our haplogroup is R1b1a2a1a1b4. In SNP tests, we are R-L21+ and Z253+. Additional testing is likely in the near future, depending on the needs of several project administrators. I urge anyone who is wondering and/or assuming things about their ancestry to undertake y-DNA testing, if possible. It can be a real eye-opener and is loads of fun. It can also help many others who have been tested and may be doing genetic comparisons in an attempt to decipher their own ancestry. We all put in many years and hours in genealogy; y-DNA testing can kick start an otherwise dead-end riddled stream of research.
Paul H. Shaw

20Sep2012
Update! The L1066 SNP has tested positive. It is a SNP which is almost certain to test positive in all Irish Type IV people, according to a project administrator in the Irish and O'Shea projects. For four centuries, we were English/Scottish Shaws. Now, with each additional test, we are more firmly proven to be otherwise.
Paul H. Shaw

« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 04:47:23 PM by Paul H. Shaw » Logged
Jared Olar
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 09:32:40 PM »

The picture has suddenly gotten much less defined and much more uncertain.  We've learned that there is another reputed descendant of John Shaw of Plymouth, Massachusetts, in the Shaw DNA Project -- it's Kit No. N64745  (JA Shaw), and these results from a 12-marker test are not even close to a match with the results of Kit No. 242499.  Judging from similar results in the Shaw DNA Project, the results of N64745 could indicate an English origin, whereas the results of 242499 reveal a descent from the O'Sheas or Shees of County Tipperary, Ireland.

That means the "paper trail" must be reexamined to see if Paul H. Shaw is really a descendant of John Shaw, and/or further Shaw y-DNA testing must be done to determine whether it is 242499 or N64745 that represents the true male descendants of John Shaw of Plymouth Colony.  It's even possible that neither of them are really John Shaw's descendants.  Hopefully we'll soon have other male Shaw relatives in the Shaw DNA Project so we can solve this mystery.
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Jared Olar
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 07:00:39 PM »

Two of my Shaw cousins, both male-line descendants of Capt. Job Shaw and his wife Lucy Sherman, have submitted 111-marker y-DNA tests.  So, in a few weeks we should finally resolve the question of whether or Shaws were English, Irish, or what.
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Maples230
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2015, 10:42:31 AM »

Hello,
I am new to this site and have just gotten the kit. Goes off today.  Shaw is the   name I have been researching. . I have done many, many, many   years of genealogy  and keep hitting  that blank wall. Hoping this kit will help. Any help on how to start? after I get my kit? Pat
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Pat
Jared Olar
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2015, 02:42:07 PM »

Two of my Shaw cousins, both male-line descendants of Capt. Job Shaw and his wife Lucy Sherman, have submitted 111-marker y-DNA tests.  So, in a few weeks we should finally resolve the question of whether or Shaws were English, Irish, or what.

Well then, back in the summer of 2012, we first learned of the DNA test results of Paul Shaw, which unexpectedly revealed that his male lineage derives from the Shees or Sheas of Tipperary in Ireland.  For about a century, it had been believed that Paul's family was a branch of our Shaws, and if true that meant our ancestors at some point prior to circa 1600 apparently had come over to England from Ireland.

In the following year, however, I learned that a few other Shaws whose genealogical "paper trail" traced back to John Shaw of Plymouth, Mass., -- including Shaw researcher Jonathan Allen Shaw of Massachusetts -- had also had their DNA tested, and their results placed them in a completely different genetic subclade than Paul Shaw.  This meant Paul would have to take a closer look at his genealogy, and we would also need additional Shaw DNA testing to clarify the correct y-DNA signature of our Shaws.

This summer, my cousins Dick Shaw of Tennessee and Scott Shaw of Ohio had their Y chromosomes tested, and this month we learned of their results.  They match perfectly with the Shaws of Haplogroup R1b Lineage IV in the Shaw DNA Project.  This confirms that our Shaws are a completely separate family from the Irish Sheas/Shaws of Tipperary, which means Paul Shaw isn't a descendant of John Shaw of Plymouth, Mass., after all.  His genealogy is proven back to Darius Shaw, who graduated from Dartmouth in the late 1700s, but the DNA test results indicate that Paul's ancestor Darius must not be the same person as Darius Shaw, born 1767, son of Jonathan Shaw IV and Martha Weeks, contrary to what genealogists had long believed.  In an email of 1 June 2013, Jonathan Allen Shaw had said he suspected that is where the lineage "broke," and I agree with him.

Our DNA test results are displayed on the Shaw DNA Project results chart.

Kit No. N64745 is Jonathan Allen Shaw, descendant of George Shaw, son of Deacon Jonathan Shaw, son of John Shaw of Plymouth. Mass.

Kit No. 417658 is Dick Shaw (Richard Monroe Shaw II), my mother's second cousin -- Dick's grandfather Arthur Monroe Shaw was a younger brother of my great-grandfather Sherman Linn Shaw.

Kit No. 416741 is Scott Shaw, a descendant of Henry Champion Shaw of Amboy, Illinois, son of John Shaw, who was the eldest child of Job Shaw and Lucy Sherman -- John's younger brother Manly Sherman Shaw is the ancestor of Dick Shaw and of my late mother Dolores Frances Shaw Olar.

(For comparison, Paul Shaw's results are Kit No. 242499, listed under Haplogroup R1b - No match yet in the Project)

Note that all of the listed members of Lineage IV have VERY similar y-DNA.  These results point to our Shaws being of English descent, and going back further in time, these results point to the South Baltic area of Europe -- northern and eastern Germany, Denmark, southern Sweden, southern Norway -- i.e. Germanic ancestry.  So, our Shaws were probably of Anglo-Saxon, Norman, or perhaps Danish/Norwegian viking descent, coming to Britain either in the 400s, 800s, or late 1000s A.D.

It should also be noted that the matching results of Dick Shaw and Scott Shaw prove that they are cousins in the male line.  This supports the old family traditions of our respective branches, that we are descended from the brothers John and Sherman, sons of Job and Lucy Shaw.  Not that there could ever be any reasonable doubt, since my branch and Henry Champion Shaw's branch and our Utah Mormon cousins have been in almost continuous contact with each other, and my ancestor Sherman even lived just two doors down the street from his nephew Sylvester, son of John.  But for any who may have doubted, the DNA test results prove that John Shaw's descendants and Sherman Shaw's descendants share a common male ancestor, and all available records, family tradition, and a preponderance of circumstantial evidence combine to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the common male ancestor of my branch and the John Shaw branch is Job Shaw.
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Jared Olar
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 09:12:27 AM »

Hello,
I am new to this site and have just gotten the kit. Goes off today.  Shaw is the name I have been researching. I have done many, many, many   years of genealogy  and keep hitting  that blank wall. Hoping this kit will help. Any help on how to start? after I get my kit? Pat

Once your results come in, make sure Kathleen Shaw Decker, the administrator of the Shaw DNA Project knows.  Also, you should go to the Shaw Pedigrees discussion thread here at the forum and post a summary of your Shaw pedigree.  When your results arrive, the project will add them to the results chart so you can compare them to others' results.  FTDNA also will enable you to locate DNA matches and estimate how closely or distantly you might be related to your matches.
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Maples230
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2015, 02:00:16 PM »

Thank you  for your help. Maples
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Pat
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