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Author Topic: Once again Dienekes “J2” Pontikos to storm Europe  (Read 1333 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: July 28, 2012, 08:20:01 AM »

Harald Niederstätter1, Gerhard Rampl2, Daniel Erhart1, Florian Pitterl1, Herbert Oberacher1, Franz Neuhuber3, Isolde Hausner2, Christoph Gassner4,5, Harald Schennach4, Burkhard Berger1*, Walther Parson1


Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German-Speaking Alpine Region
   

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885

« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 11:34:38 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 09:43:48 AM »

I am reading the paper and analysing the data, but , if this isn’t a mistake, it is a rubbish. The Region A of East Tyrol would be the Slavic one and the Region B the Romance one. The data say that:

“Splitting the East Tyrolean population sample into regions A and B resulted in a partitioning of haplogroups E-M78, R-M17, R-M412/S167*, and R-S116*. E-M78, R-M17 and R-S116* Y chromosomes were exclusively found in region B whereas samples assigned to R-M412/S167*, R-U106/S21, and R-U152/S28 reached higher frequencies in region A (Fig. 3, Table S7)” (page 6)..
   
I.e. the Romance Region would have “E-M78, R-M17 and R-S116*” and the Slav one would have R-M412/S167*, R-U106/S21, and R-U152/S28, i.e. the other way around of what we know from so long.
R-M412/S167 (R-L51) is born in Italy (or Italy-France as RRocca says) and the same for R-U152/S28.

Interesting thing is that R-L51 reaches the 4,81% of the total, which is in line of the data of Argiedude and me and also with the last of Rocca and the people tested in the Romance Region were only 13% of the total against 87% of the Slav Region.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 09:44:46 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 10:10:10 AM »

Is this part of the same war?

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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 10:35:29 AM »

Of course the mistake is in the maps at page 5 which are inverted.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 11:08:42 AM »

Actually in the A zone, that Romance one, the R-L51 are 5 out of 35, then the 14,28%.
Interesting. To Rich Rocca attention.

Of course this has something to do with a founder effect, but the percentage is anyway high.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 11:12:51 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 12:12:43 PM »

The conclusions are interesting, and demonstrate what I have always said and written, also to Irene Pichler, that the inhabitants of the region descend above all from the Rhaetic People (seen also that a link with the inhabitants of Zone B, that Slav one, and actual Slav peoples isn’t demonstrated) and it is demonstrated also by the links I have signalled amongst many mtDNA haplogroups of this region and Tuscany. Hope that this will be able to be demonstrated also for the expansion of the agriculture in Italy and Europe:

“It seems reasonable to assume that in a small, agriculturally dominated alpine area, philopatric men (e.g. land owners) have contributed substantially to the Y-chromosomal pool, thus preserving in region A Y chromosomes dating back to the early Romance speaking settlers.
Our results suggest cultural diffusion rather than population replacement as the underlying mechanism for the complete transition from a Romance to a Germanic speaking population in the southwestern part of East Tyrol.
Further, the outcomes of this study formidably demonstrate how largely differing disciplines can complement each other. Here, the toponomastic analysis of pasture names provided essential and otherwise unavailable information for the detection, analysis, and interpretation of a marked substructuring in a population of human Y chromosomes initially considered homogeneous” (page 10).

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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 01:06:44 PM »

It is interesting also this haplotype (ETY 179):

14 13-28 24 11 13 12 13-14 10 12 15 20 16 15 23 11

labelled R-M343, but which may be everything between M343 and M269. These are the closest on YHRD:

14 13 29 24 11 13 12 13,14 4 >>
14 13 28 24 11 14 12 13,14 1 >>
14 13 28 24 11 13 13 13,14 1 >>
14 13 28 24 11 13 12 13,15 1 >>

1 14 13 28 24 11 14 12 13,14 12 13 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 314 Sicily, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe

1 14 13 28 24 11 13 12 13,15 10 13 15 20 17 17 23 10 >>
1 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia   

but the Australian one from the Isles is the closest one.

This is far:
1 14 13 28 24 11 13 13 13,14 12 11 14 18 15 17 23 11 >>
1 of 197 Macapá, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America

These are very inviting for me:
2 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 13,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 13,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 13 12 13,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 of 199 Valencia, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 162 Marche, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 168 Puglia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
but DYS438=12 instead of 10 is a hard obstacle.

But I think that if I speak of Italian Refugium I am not so far from truth.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 01:17:02 PM »

And what to say of 3 very varied E-M96, which the authors don’t know what to say? And M78 isn’t on the same plane of V68 and L18. It is on the same plane with L18, but V68, those found in Sardinia by Cruciani, is the ancestor!
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A_Wode
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 04:44:40 PM »

"Once again Dienekes “J2” Pontikos to storm Europe"

- This gave me a good chuckle, and a very valid point. What on earth does this paper have to do with J2? Absolutely nothing.

The conclusions were that region A was more Romance and B more German/Slavic. I just don't know. Both regions of Tyrol seem to be heavily Germanic.

For example when we correlate the heavy I/R1b aDNA from Roman age Bavaria with the findings here, we see a similar story. Strong I1/R1b representation that these two haplogroups were definitely among Germanic speakers as they are in high quantity in both areas. In fact, almost all of R1b aDNA found to date has been from Germany/Central European - Medieval Spanish Basque aside.

Region A

R-U106 = 10/35
R-U152 = 8/35
R-L51    = 5/35
R-L23    = 1/35

I1 = 5/35

Region B

R-U106 = 41/235
R-U152 = 26/235
R-L51    = 8/235
R-L23    = 4/235
R-L11    = 2/235
R-P312* = 8/235
R-P25(?) = 1/235

I-M253 = 38/235
R1a1 = 38/235
E-M78 (highly likely E-V13) = 12/235

I would say it's hard to draw any conclusions when one sampled area is only 35, and the other quite literally 7x its sample size. If nothing else, Region B seems more metropolitan and might represent a more Slavic and/or Balkan influence. (E-V13 and R1a1) The lack of I2a2-D is surprising - but this could have come with later invading steppe people. A heavy presence in eastern Ukraine should not be overlooked.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 05:41:36 PM by A_Wode » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 06:40:56 PM »

A_Wode writes: “Both regions of Tyrol seem to be heavily Germanic”.

Of course the discourse about J2 was of Dienekes’, and for him it would demonstrate that, being this haplogroup at the same level in both the zones,  it would be the “glue”, i.e the Indo-European carriers. Of course by naming him with that “J2” I think that my irony, and perhaps my sarcasm, was evident.
About what you say I can say that during the Roman Empire the “Limes” was Rhine- Danube, and within this territory the language and the “Genes” were romance. I find my R-L23 heavily diffused till Switzerland and Bavaria and have always asked me, without a response so far, if I am a descendant of Romans or of Germans. But I have said before that only an analysis case by case I think will be able to answer.
When I speak of an Italian Refugium (or a Franco-Cantabrian one) this does mean that everything we find at North came at some moment from South. The case of R-L51 I think is evident, or do you think that it was born along the Baltic or the North Sea?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 07:19:54 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 07:33:47 PM »

There is no doubt in my mind that L23* was among the Romans, whether this was exclusively so...I don't have an answer. How much of Roman YDNA remains today I do not know. Perhaps even U152* was Roman -arriving from Central Europe during the Bronze Age. I believe J2 and G2a are foreign to Italy and Europe in general arriving only with agriculture or later eastern groups (Etruscan, Tyrrhenian..etc). E1b1b1 is probably older and derives from early Levantine expansion via the Balkans.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 07:38:25 PM by A_Wode » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 08:14:08 PM »

The oriental origin of Etruscans I have "destroyed" many times, also by "breaking in pieces" papers of illustrious geneticists, and perhaps it would be useful if you all studied the question without repeating this "locus communis".
About hg. G I have written a lot, and certainly it was in Italy at least 5300 years ago (Oetzi) and G-L497 was probably Etruscan one or at least European.
About hg. E, specifically E-M96*, I have posted a letter here and also in this case don't follow "loci communes". It isn't said either it was born in Africa and certainly Europe has ancient haplotypes, like those found by Cruciani, and in this specific case it has been found in Africa only amongst Berbers of Marocco and could have come from Europe after the LGM or the Younger Dryas.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 08:22:31 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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