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Author Topic: Z245 & L459 ABOVE L21  (Read 1098 times)
df.reynolds
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« on: July 27, 2012, 01:12:46 AM »

See:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4771

Kit 63671 (Jones) is P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-.

I sent a note off to Thomas to ask him to double-check this key result. (And got a quick reply from him.)

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
I was just surprised by myself when I read this on the list. However I
re-checked the raw data and all seems to be clean.
I placed a re-run order for L21 because the result was from 2009, just
to be 100% sure, but all tests seem to have been running on the same sample.

Thomas

--david
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 01:26:36 AM by df.reynolds » Logged
Castlebob
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 01:47:55 AM »

That's extremely  interesting, David. I've justy got my L459 & Z245 results back & am negative for both.
I'm L21- & DF27- DF19-.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 02:31:07 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 07:08:30 AM »

Wow! That is big news, if it holds up (and it looks like it should).

Jones' most distant y-dna ancestor was born in Wales but died in Buckingham County, Virginia, in about 1768.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 07:08:54 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 08:15:08 AM »

This might just stand as the gospel as both have tested L21- and appear to have similar hapotypes.

f63671   Jones   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales
f180710   Pugh   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales

Guy that might be considered as testable.

f63671   Jones   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales   Wales
f180710   Pugh   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales   Wales
f11475   Williams   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales   Wales
f60348   Williams   R-P312*   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
f34748   Jenkins   R-P312*   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
f141335   Davis   R-P312   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
fE10275   zzzUnkName   R-P312*   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
f8704   Davis   R-P312   zzCountry   IS z unk   UK
f120765   Castillo   R-P312   Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain (Basque project)
f86193   Perry   R-P312*   zzCountry   IS z unk   UK
f30483   Hinds   R-P312*   England   IS Eng z unk   England
f154250   Schunemann    R-P312*   Germany    EW Ger North   Germany, Saxony-Anhalt, Rübeland


MJost
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 08:16:05 AM »

See:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4771

Kit 63671 (Jones) is P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-.

I sent a note off to Thomas to ask him to double-check this key result. (And got a quick reply from him.)

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
I was just surprised by myself when I read this on the list. However I
re-checked the raw data and all seems to be clean.
I placed a re-run order for L21 because the result was from 2009, just
to be 100% sure, but all tests seem to have been running on the same sample.

Thomas

This IS great news.  It is also frustrating somewhat because I've had several attempts to encourage P312* to test for L459 and Z245 with generally little interest.  It was perceived as synonymous with L21.  We have to keep our "exploratory" hats on in the large asterisk groups.

EDIT: Kudos to David R and Richard S (and/or whoever) for making something happen.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 12:16:45 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2012, 08:19:15 AM »

See:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4771

Kit 63671 (Jones) is P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-.

I sent a note off to Thomas to ask him to double-check this key result. (And got a quick reply from him.)

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
I was just surprised by myself when I read this on the list. However I
re-checked the raw data and all seems to be clean.
I placed a re-run order for L21 because the result was from 2009, just
to be 100% sure, but all tests seem to have been running on the same sample.

Thomas

This IS great news.  It is also frustrating somewhat because I've had several attempts to encourage P312* to test for L459 and Z245 with generally little interest.  It was perceived as synonymous with L21.  We have to keep our "exploratory" hats on in the large asterisk groups.
--david



I emailed Henry Zenker this morning and asked him to consider sending a bulk email to the members of the R-P312 and Subclades Project about this, asking the P312* guys to test for Z245 and L459.

Hopefully, he'll do it.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 08:39:23 AM »

This from henrybohemia@yahoo.com

All,
The testing of "True P312*" men for L459 and Z245 (SNPs that had positive results only in L21+ men to date) has quickly borne fruit.
Testing positive for L459 and Z245 is:63671 Thomas Jones, d.ca.1768 Buckingham Co., VA USA [Wales]                ySearch: 5FRF8
DF19-, DF27-, L10-, L11+, L147.3-, L165-, L176.2-, L194-, L21-, L220-, L221-, L238-, L459+, L61-, L7-, L8-, L86.2-, L9-, L95-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, Z196-, Z245+
....... who has tested negative for all major SNPs under R-P312 and thus was considered a "True P312*.
David Reynold's urgency in having True P312* test L459 and Z245 has paid off.
Jones' YDNA now represents the direct ancestor of all L21 ?  Is that what we are seeing?
Henry

My answers:
1
It is interesting, I think, that Jones (5FRF89) matches at 12 markers two other Jones: 7KUJW, from Scotland, and D67A4 (unknown origin), but also a Spaniard: Martinez, Texas, USA: 273UZ.
Interesting DYS393 and DYS392=14.  
Gioiello

2
(From YHRD)
6 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 10 10 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 10 11 14 19 14 16 22 11 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 12 11 15 19 17 17 23 11 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 832 Sverdlovsk Region, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Asia
1 of 133 Tartu, Estonia [Estonian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 400 Sweden [Swedish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 196 Muenster, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 377 Northern Norway, Norway [Norwegian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 22 Florida, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 129 Bialystok, Poland [Old Believers] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 342 Bogotá, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 1177 Antioquia, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
 
And we should select who belongs to this haplotype. Probably only
 
1 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 12 11 15 19 17 17 23 11 >>
1 of 195 Bogotá, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
 
and
1 14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 986 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
 
Interesting also:
14 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 5 >>
14 13 29 23 11 14 13 11,14 12 12 31 >>
14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,14 12 12 23 >>
14 13 29 23 11 14 14 11,14 12 11 1 >>
 
2 14 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 18 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 24 12 >>
1 14 13 29 24 11 14 14 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 766 Australia [Aboriginal] Australian Aboriginal Oceania / Australia
1 of 277 Antwerpen, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 531 Rostock, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 288 Nicaragua [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 104 Brescia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
 
etc.

We should be within the Bell Beakers, and you know which is my path: Italy to Iberia to Central Europe to the Isles.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 08:44:05 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mark Jost
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2012, 08:47:03 AM »

This might just stand as the gospel as both have tested L21- and appear to have similar hapotypes.

f63671   Jones   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales
f180710   Pugh   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales

Guy that might be considered as testable.

f63671   Jones   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales   Wales
f180710   Pugh   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales   Wales
f11475   Williams   R-P312*   Wales   IS Wales   Wales
f60348   Williams   R-P312*   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
f34748   Jenkins   R-P312*   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
f141335   Davis   R-P312   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
fE10275   zzzUnkName   R-P312*   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
f8704   Davis   R-P312   zzCountry   IS z unk   UK
f120765   Castillo   R-P312   Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain (Basque project)
f86193   Perry   R-P312*   zzCountry   IS z unk   UK
f30483   Hinds   R-P312*   England   IS Eng z unk   England
f154250   Schunemann    R-P312*   Germany    EW Ger North   Germany, Saxony-Anhalt, Rübeland


MJost

Pretty close Founder estimates between the new Jones results and similar haplotypes and with Jones

67 Markers With Jones
                   
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
30   N=12   P312* Jones GA coal=   103.7   3,112.5   GA=   129.7   3,891.4
                     
67 Markers Without Jones
                  
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
30   N=11   P312* Jones GA coal=   94.2   2,827.3   GA=   120.0   3,599.2


MJost
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2012, 09:00:47 AM »

And also this could be interesting:

1 14 13 30 23 11 14 14 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 685 Berlin, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

and this
1 14 14 30 23 11 14 14 11,14 12 11 14 18 16 17 23 10 >>
1 of 1239 United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2012, 05:48:21 PM »

To your attention also this haplotype: Borzoni, Bogotaro, Parma ySearch C62B6.

14 24 14 10 12-14 12 12 13 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-17 11 10 19-23 16 12 12 12 12 12 11 12 24 10 12 12 30 24
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2012, 07:21:39 PM »

Jones has also DYS436=13 and this is one of the slowest mutators and modal at 12. Apart this R-L21

N64826   Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-17-17-17-17 10 10 19-23 16 15 19 17 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 25-25 17 10 13 12 15 8 11 22 20 14 14 11 13 11 11 12 12                                         

all the others are classified in the R-P312 FTDNA Project like R-P312:

80825 John Fowler, b.c1794, Ireland - d.c1850, Ireland Ireland R1b1a2a1a1b
13 24 15 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 12 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-22 17 15 18 18 34-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8  9 10 12 22-23 16 10   9 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                   

127272 Angus Livingston(e)1775-?? Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b
13 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 18 18 37-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 14 12 16 8 14 22 21 14 12 11 13 12 11 12 12 37 15 9 16 12 26 26 19 13 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 31 12 13 25 13 10 10 19 15 20 11 23 16 13 15 24 12 23 18 8 14 17 9 12 11

121276 Samuel Thompson Abt 1805 NC Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 13 12 13 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-15-17 10 9 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 13 12 15 8 14 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                       
 
164633 James Thompson 1776 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 13 12 13 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-15-17 10 9 19-23 15 15 18 17 35-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 13 12 15 8 14 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 31 12 13 24 13 10 10 21 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 12 11

22627 John Ro(w)ley , d 1822 PA; ? German or Ulster Scot Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 13 27 18 9-9 11 11 25 14 19 30 15-15-15-15 11 11 19-23 14 15 19 18 34-34 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-24 16 11 13 12 15 8 12 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 37 15 9 17 12 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 12 11 31 12 13 24 13 10 11 20 15 19 12 24 16 13 15 24 12 23 19 10 14 17 9 12 11

46249 Ebenezer Dixon b1770 Augusta CoVA, d1855 Putnam IN Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b
14 25 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 26 15 20 28 15-15-17-18 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 18 35-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 13 12 15 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12     

119244 Unknown Scotland R1b1a2a1a1
12 24 16 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 10 19-23 16 15 18 18 37-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 25-25 17 10 13 12 15 9 11 22 20 13 14 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                   

120317 John Livingstone b. 1784-1786, d. Aug. 24, 1859 Scotland R1b1a2
13 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 11 11 18-23 16 15 18 18 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 14 12 16 8 14 22 21 14 12 11 13 12 11 12 12                                 
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Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 07:59:24 PM »

very interesting.  Never a dull moment in this hobby.
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 02:02:06 AM »


This IS great news.  It is also frustrating somewhat because I've had several attempts to encourage P312* to test for L459 and Z245 with generally little interest.  It was perceived as synonymous with L21.  We have to keep our "exploratory" hats on in the large asterisk groups.

EDIT: Kudos to David R and Richard S (and/or whoever) for making something happen.


I think what made the difference this time, Mike, is all of the attention/excitement generated by DF13 and DF63. All the positive publicity generated by the finds there made people more receptive to doing additional testing at that level of the tree, IMHO.

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 06:25:04 PM »

See:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4771

Kit 63671 (Jones) is P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-.

I sent a note off to Thomas to ask him to double-check this key result. (And got a quick reply from him.)

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
I was just surprised by myself when I read this on the list. However I
re-checked the raw data and all seems to be clean.
I placed a re-run order for L21 because the result was from 2009, just
to be 100% sure, but all tests seem to have been running on the same sample.

Thomas

--david


Any word on the re-run of L21?

Has Jones been confirmed as P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-?
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 06:29:01 PM »

See:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4771

Kit 63671 (Jones) is P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-.

I sent a note off to Thomas to ask him to double-check this key result. (And got a quick reply from him.)

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
I was just surprised by myself when I read this on the list. However I
re-checked the raw data and all seems to be clean.
I placed a re-run order for L21 because the result was from 2009, just
to be 100% sure, but all tests seem to have been running on the same sample.

Thomas

--david


Any word on the re-run of L21?

Has Jones been confirmed as P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-?
Waiting for word from Thomas, so no, we don't have final confirmation on Jones.

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 09:37:53 PM »

See:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-P312Project/message/4771

Kit 63671 (Jones) is P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-.

I sent a note off to Thomas to ask him to double-check this key result. (And got a quick reply from him.)

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
I was just surprised by myself when I read this on the list. However I
re-checked the raw data and all seems to be clean.
I placed a re-run order for L21 because the result was from 2009, just
to be 100% sure, but all tests seem to have been running on the same sample.

Thomas

--david


Any word on the re-run of L21?

Has Jones been confirmed as P312+ L459+ Z245+ L21-?
Waiting for word from Thomas, so no, we don't have final confirmation on Jones.

--david

Thanks. Maybe next week.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 05:46:45 PM »

I looked at the P312 project spreadsheet and increased the swath (to 29 HTs from the original 12 -P312's) of the same off modals for the possible L21- L459+ Z245+ and found these haplotypes that spill into L152 and DF27.

392=14 and 390=23 or less. (Interesting is the 464c=16 and 464d=18 seen as a stand out across this list with a 11 as allele value of 17 has a count of 14).

If the Lab confirms Jones, then the maybe a few guys from each subclade can be tested for L459 and Z245.

f69096   Henry   R-DF27/Z196/L176/Z262/SRY2627   zzCountry
f55998   Henry   R-DF27/Z196/L176/Z262/SRY2627   Ireland
fN38675   Cunningham   R-DF27/Z196/L176/Z262/SRY2627   zzCountry
f133307   Adams   R-DF27/Z196/L176/Z262/SRY2627   zzCountry
f107839   zzzUnkName   R-U152   Ukraine
fE10275   zzzUnkName   R-P312*   zzCountry
f154250   Schunemann    R-P312*   Germany
f44479   Richert   R-DF27/Z196   Poland
f60159   Richert   R-DF27/Z196   Poland
f63671   Jones   R-P312*   Wales
f180710   Pugh   R-P312*   Wales
f11475   Williams   R-P312*   Wales
f34748   Jenkins   R-P312*   zzCountry
f8704   Davis   R-P312   zzCountry
f86193   Perry   R-P312*   zzCountry
fN3432   Menge   R-DF27/Z196/Z274/DF17   Germany
f159918   Quijano Y Jimenez    R-DF27/Z196/Z274/Z209/Z220/Z216/Z278/Z214/M153   Spain
yMCPPU   Cardwell   R-U152   zzCountry
y74WFZ   Schnettler   R-U152/L2   Germany
fE8718   Haele   R-U152/L2*   Austria
fN9622   Grauel   R-U152/L2*   Germany
f153179   Ragusa   R-U152/L2*   Italy

MJost
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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