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Author Topic: Haplogroups of the Kings of the (British) Isles  (Read 4333 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: July 26, 2012, 10:45:10 AM »

The thread on U106 and British Kins and last male lineage widened out into broader topics so I thought I'd set up a new thread on it because I wanted everyone to see a quick run down that Brian Swann created.

My intent is not to relegate this topic to kings of Great Britain but to include preeminent Irish High Kings as well, at least any way we can reasonably determine were historically documented.

There has been quite a bit of recent discussion regarding this topic on the U106/S21 Yahoo Groups.  An author has claimed his grandfather was the eldest son of King George V. He was able to convince a direct male-line descendant of Prince Albert (and Queen Victoria) to undergo DNA testing and he matches the family 66/67.

In addition, Deep-clade testing has shown where they are R1b-U106 and negative for all the sub-clades in FT-DNAs current R1b Deep-Clade testing. They have joined the U106 Y-DNA Project and are testing for the Z series SNPs below U106.

More discussion on this can be found at:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kings-Soncom/163810717059752

Brian Picton Swann is the ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator and England and Wales. He posted this summary on the U106 yahoo group.
Quote from: Brian Picton Swann
Saxon

The Saxon Royal line is interesting, starting with the semi-legendary Cerdic who may have landed in Hampshire ca 495 or later; origins unknown.  Summary of the conflicting theories in the Wikipedia article.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wessex_family_tree

This line became extinct with the death of Edward Atheling in about 1125/6. Many of the links are disputed. Egbert, who became King of Wessex in 802, was probably of Kentish origin, and his ancestry back to Cerdic may have been invented to legitimize his claim to the throne of Wessex.

Norman

Allegedly starts with Rollo the Viking or Rollo the Ganger. The legitimate male line died out with Henry I in 1135. I am not an expert on his illegitimate children, who are very considerable (see Wiki link). No reason why he could not be Haplogroup I. Some appreciable work could be done nowadays on his illegitimate male lines to see how far they could be traced.  Cokayne has to be an excellent start point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England

King Henry is famed for holding the record for more than twenty acknowledged illegitimate children, the largest number born to any English king; they turned out to be significant political assets in subsequent years, his bastard daughters cementing alliances with a flock of lords whose lands bordered Henry's.  He had many mistresses, and identifying which mistress is the mother of which child is difficult. [G. E. Cokayne, in his Complete Peerage, Vol. XI, Appendix D pps 105–121 attempts to elucidate Henry I's illegitimate children. For Mistress Sybil Corbet, he indicates that Rohese married Henry de la Pomerai [ibid.:119]. In any case, the dates concerning Rohese in the above article are difficult to reconcile on face value, her purported children having seemingly been born before their mother, and also before the date of her mother's purported marriage.]

Plantagenet

Descended from Geoffrey of Anjou (1113-1151). His male ancestry looks ambiguous before this predecessor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_II,_Count_of_Gatinais (died about 1043/46).

This describes where the Gatinais is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatinais

So this gets you into Haplogroups in the Northern part of France, but no so far north as to get into Normandy itself. I always regard Haplogroups in France as tricky to assign as I have yet to see a decent regional Haplogroup survey of France (but I have not looked too far).  Absolutely key missing bit of data to understand British Haplogroup origins.  Look forward to discussion with the POBI Team on this very subject.

This legitimate male line died out with King Richard III in 1485.  Bastard lines will require some detailed examination. Let me just cite one example to show that progress is still being made.

Henry II also had several illegitimate children; amongst the most prominent of these were Geoffrey (later Archbishop of York) and William (later Earl of Salisbury).  Henry was expected to provide for the future of his legitimate children, either through granting lands to his sons or marrying his daughters well.

M. L. Bierbrier says this in the Society of Genealogists Magazine, March 2011, p. 173 under his regular column: New Developments in Medieval Genealogy.

The position of royal bastards has always been ambiguous, at once persons of honour and shame. Their mothers often remain in the shadows. We do not know the names of the mistresses of Geoffrey, Count of Anjou (q.v.) but those of his son, Henry II, are slowly revealing their secrets. His two chief bastards were Archbishop Geoffrey of York and William Longspee, Earl of Salisbury. New documents have recently revealed that William's mother was a Countess Ida, identified as Ida de Tosny, Countess of Norfolk. Now Marie Lovatt turns her attention to the mother of Archbishop Geoffrey in an article: Archbishop Geoffrey of York: A Problem in Anglo-French Maternity, in Nicholas Vincent (ed.) Records, Administration and Aristocratic Society in the Anglo-Norman Realm.  The Boydell Press, 2009.

Geoffrey's mother is named as Hikenai in the only contemporary account, but most commentators assume that this name hides her true origin. The trail inevitably leads to Henry's most famous mistress Rosamund Clifford. Lovatt suggests the possibility that the name Hikenai is taken from the castle of Acquigny owned by the de Tosny family. She examines in detail the genealogies of the de Clifford and de Tosny families and puts forward corrections to standard pedigrees. However, her suggestions that Rosamund Clifford or her mother, Margaret or Ida de Tosny (aunt of Ida, Countess of Norfolk) could be Geoffrey's mother would imply that Henry took his mistresses from a rather limited family group including mother and daughter. The author also overlooks a key argument against Rosamund Clifford which she mentions only in passing. Hugh, Bishop of Lincoln, ordered the destruction of Rosamund's tomb, yet he was a strong supporter of Archbishop Geoffrey. His actions seem unlikely if Rosamund was Geoffrey's mother. The article also mentions other mistresses and bastards of Henry II and sums up our current knowledge on this vexed subject.

 I will stop here. There is a lot that can be done now by a detailed study of each of the main male lines which have produced dynasties ruling England, and especially the illegitimate lines.

Henry VII is the grandson of Owen Tudor, executed in 1461. Welsh predicted Haplogroups (?).

King James I is the Scottish Royal Family (Stuarts) as far as I know this line died out in 1809 with the death of Cardinal Henry Beaufort in Rome, although I would be amazed if there are not male illegitimate lines. Note also that in the male line this goes through the genealogy of Henry, Lord Darnley, who married Mary, Queen of Scots, and thus into the Douglas family history.

And then with the Hanoverian and Windsor lines we are into German Princes and their haplogroups.

And now we are into the Greek Royal Family, with Philip, Duke of Edinburgh which gets us into the Danish Royal lineage.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 12:06:31 PM »

There has been quite a bit of recent discussion regarding this topic on the U106/S21 Yahoo Groups.  An author has claimed his grandfather was the eldest son of King George V. He was able to convince a direct male-line descendant of Prince Albert (and Queen Victoria) to undergo DNA testing and he matches the family 66/67.

In addition, Deep-clade testing has shown where they are R1b-U106 and negative for all the sub-clades in FT-DNAs current R1b Deep-Clade testing. They have joined the U106 Y-DNA Project and are testing for the Z series SNPs below U106.

The author of the book has stated he has "proven" the relationship of the haplogroup to the Kingly lineage. The "Wettin" man is the key. For my usage of the term "proven", he has not provided that strong of a case. He definitely is on to something but I just can't say the case is ironclade, at least yet.

The U106 project coordinator, Charles Moore, would not use the word "proven" but he has read the book and answers...
Quote from: Charles Moore
I'll just answer this. The 2 lines that are triangulated descend from Franz, 1750-1806, Duke of Saxe-Coburg.  One line is via his son King Leopold of Belgium via a brother of the next King in the line.  The other line is via another son of Franz, Ernst, via his son Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria, via their son, a younger brother of Edward VII.

My understand is that the haplotype of the "Wettin" man is the first one below. He and the other three have a strong STR signature.

f231054   P93DY R-U106 Dedi Graf im Hasegau (Coburg) (von Oldenburg), b.c.916, Wettin, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
f33310   RPQKW R-U106 Hugh Keys, d.1733 Derryvullan, Co. Fermanagh, Ulster, Ireland
f175525   noYs  R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305* James Kidder, b.1626, England
f143359   2SMDR R-U106 Hugh Thompson, b.1699, Ulster, Northern Ireland

That STR signature is 395s1=16,16 459=9,9 520=21 390=24 557=15 458=18 (464=1$,15,16,$) and I labeled it as variety "s156-9921" in the Haplotype_Data_R-U106All spreadsheet.

Kidder is Z305+ L1-. The other folks should test for Z305 to validate/invalidate this variety. This is not within the large L48 subclade.

When it comes to royal lineages, I think the historical/genealogical record is probably good, but NPE rates must still be considered. ISOGG recomends, based on NPE studies, that "when the father is confident he is the father", we use an NPE rate of 4% per generation. To go back to 910AD would require 30 generations which means the odds are 71% that there will be NPE. The triangulation becomes very important.  The more that distant cousins can be tested, the wider the triangulation, the better we can reduce the chances of an NPE.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 12:12:57 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 12:52:37 PM »

The Stewart/Stuart family is a group that has a large following of aggressive DNA testers. They assert that they are descendants of the Royal Stuarts.
Quote from: Brian Picton Swann
... King James I is the Scottish Royal Family (Stuarts) as far as I know this line died out in 1809 with the death of Cardinal Henry Beaufort in Rome, although I would be amazed if there are not male illegitimate lines. Note also that in the male line this goes through the genealogy of Henry, Lord Darnley, who married Mary, Queen of Scots, and thus into the Douglas family history.

I'll have to dig up the post, but I asked what breadth of triangulation they used to track back to the Stewart's and they did have several (like 5 or 6) that track back with different documented lineages back to the Stewarts. In other words, it made sense, but I am far from an adequate judge on this. I am just trying to report what pieces of it I can understand.

The people that call themselves the Royal Stewarts have a strong STR signature of 565=11 GataH4=10 406s1=11 (446=14 456=15) with good, low GD's amongst themselves. It is a firm variety that I labeled 41-744-Stu. They've also discovered they are downstream of DF41 and L744, a large subset of the L744+ people are L745+. L744 maps nicely with the STR signature.

f181994   Aaron Stuart, b.1765, Ridgefield, Connecticut, USA (Scotland)   zz predicted
f132507   Alexander Stewart, b.1675, Ballymena, Co. Antrim, Ireland   zz predicted
fN53630   Alexander Stewart, b.1743, Foss, Perthshire, Scotland   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f129498   Andrew Campbell, b.bef.1710, Argyllshire, Scotland   zz predicted
f179069   Andrew Stewart, b.1715   zz predicted
f115205   Charles D Stewart, b.1822, UK   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f16895   Clancey, b. Unknown   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
fE15052   Emmanuel Stuart, b.1730, Dublin, Leinster, Ireland   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f44765   Isaiah McStewart (Stewart), b.1801, Greene Co., Tennesse, USA   zz predicted
f85883   James B. Bowlin, b.c.1858, Clay, Kentucky, USA   zz predicted
f3214   James Stewart, b.1720, Virginia, USA   zz predicted
f8101   James Stewart, b.1723, Georgia, USA (Ireland)   zz predicted
f7107   James Stewart, b.1766, Perthshire, Scotland   zz predicted
f72199   James Stewart, b.c.1700, Orange Co., North Carolina, USA    R-L21
f48747   James Stewart, b.c.1720 Virginia, USA    R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f143035   James Stewart, b.c.1740, Broughshane, Co. Antrim, Ulster, Northern Ireland   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f128499   James Stewart, d.1752, Appin, Argyllshire, Scotland   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f168412   John Alexander Stewart II, b.1835, Scotland   zz predicted
f164047   John Stewart, b. Campbeltown, Scotland   zz predicted
f57979   John Stewart, b.1680, Campbelltown, Argyllshire, Scotland   R-L21
f146145   John Stewart, b.1719 Scotland   zz predicted
f21686   John Stewart, b.1751, Scotland   R-L21
f69506   John Stewart, b.1751, Ulster, Northern Ireland   zz predicted
f198781   John Stewart, b.1764, ? (Co. Donegal, Ulster, Northern Ireland)   zz predicted
f64547   John Stewart, b.1772, North Carolina, USA (UK)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f11102   John Stewart, b.c.1725, Cumberland Co., Pennsylvania, USA (Scotland)   zz predicted
f112839   John Stewart, b.c.1807, Kirkcowan, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland   zz predicted
f112014   John W Stuart, b.1796, South Carolina, USA   zz predicted
f53238   Joseph Stuart, b.1791, Kentucky, USA   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f148478   Joseph Thomas, b.c.1735, Wales   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f144696   Joseph Thomas, b.c.1750, Wales   zz predicted
f198199   Joshua Stewart, b.c.1775, Scotland?   zz predicted
f15651   Laurence Hughson, b.c.1750, West Sandwick, Isle of Yell, Shetland Islands   zz predicted
f14486   lazarus Stewart, b.c.1683, Scotland   zz predicted
f105734   Leslie Stewart, b.c.1784, Ireland   zz predicted
f35963   Peter Pearce, b.1801, South Carolina, USA   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f95959   Ramsey, b. UK   zz predicted
f40333   Robert Campbell Stewart, b.1851, Scotland   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f52758   Robert Mitchell, b.c.1784, Pennsylvani, USA (Scotland)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f199984   Robert Stewart (Possibly Robt.II via DukeOfAlbany), b.c.1785, Broughshane?, Ulster, Northern Ireland   zz predicted
f110059   Robert Stewart, b. Scotland   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f15341   Robert Stewart, b.1723, Whalsay, Shetland Islands, Scotland   R-L21
f150786   Simon Stewart, b.c.1740, Annahilt, Co. Down, Ulster, Northern Ireland   zz predicted
f147822   Stuart, b. Glenholden, Pennsylvania, USA   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f116794   Thomas Stewart, b.1749, Scotland   zz predicted
f5987   Unknown (Stewart project)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f148505   Unknown (Stewart project)   zz predicted
f148693   Unknown (Stewart project)   zz predicted
f187778   Unknown (Stewart project)   zz predicted
f212556   Unknown (Stewart project)   zz predicted
f48694   Unknown (Stewart project)   zz predicted
f69314   Unknown (Stewart project), b. Scotland   zz predicted
f30713   Walter Stewart, 1st High Steward of Scotland; died 1177   zz predicted
f183344   William Albert Stuart, b.1864, Bangor, New York, USA (Scotland)   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f5603   William Boone Stewart, b.1765, Rowan Co., North Carolina, USA   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745
f209417   William Pemberton Stewart, b.1804, Washington, Virginia, USA   zz predicted
f52840   William Stewart, b.c.1804, Perthshire, Scotland   zz predicted
f23583   William Stewart, b.c.1805, Scotland   zz predicted
f148823   William Stuart, b.1776, Co. Londonderry, Ulster, Northern Ireland   zz predicted
f75703   Walter Webb (father's surname unknown), b.1920, England   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744**
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 03:17:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 04:31:54 PM »

The  Duke of Buccleuch was tested by Ethnoancestry (Scotland's DNA) he came back as L744+, L745+. He is direct male line descendant from Charles II of England via his illegimate son James Scott, 1st Duke of Monmouth (who was executed after his rebellion in 1685)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scott,_1st_Duke_of_Monmouth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Buccleuch

Obviously he wasn't tested for DF41 as it wasn't available at the result but given the phylogenetic tree it's obvious that he is DF41+

-Paul
(DF41+)
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 04:48:27 PM »

He is only 14 of the Magoons,a name associated with the Picts of Scotland. He must have been a stray Scot.


There has been quite a bit of recent discussion regarding this topic on the U106/S21 Yahoo Groups.  An author has claimed his grandfather was the eldest son of King George V. He was able to convince a direct male-line descendant of Prince Albert (and Queen Victoria) to undergo DNA testing and he matches the family 66/67.

In addition, Deep-clade testing has shown where they are R1b-U106 and negative for all the sub-clades in FT-DNAs current R1b Deep-Clade testing. They have joined the U106 Y-DNA Project and are testing for the Z series SNPs below U106.

The author of the book has stated he has "proven" the relationship of the haplogroup to the Kingly lineage. The "Wettin" man is the key. For my usage of the term "proven", he has not provided that strong of a case. He definitely is on to something but I just can't say the case is ironclade, at least yet.

The U106 project coordinator, Charles Moore, would not use the word "proven" but he has read the book and answers...
Quote from: Charles Moore
I'll just answer this. The 2 lines that are triangulated descend from Franz, 1750-1806, Duke of Saxe-Coburg.  One line is via his son King Leopold of Belgium via a brother of the next King in the line.  The other line is via another son of Franz, Ernst, via his son Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria, via their son, a younger brother of Edward VII.

My understand is that the haplotype of the "Wettin" man is the first one below. He and the other three have a strong STR signature.

f231054   P93DY R-U106 Dedi Graf im Hasegau (Coburg) (von Oldenburg), b.c.916, Wettin, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
f33310   RPQKW R-U106 Hugh Keys, d.1733 Derryvullan, Co. Fermanagh, Ulster, Ireland
f175525   noYs  R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305* James Kidder, b.1626, England
f143359   2SMDR R-U106 Hugh Thompson, b.1699, Ulster, Northern Ireland

That STR signature is 395s1=16,16 459=9,9 520=21 390=24 557=15 458=18 (464=1$,15,16,$) and I labeled it as variety "s156-9921" in the Haplotype_Data_R-U106All spreadsheet.

Kidder is Z305+ L1-. The other folks should test for Z305 to validate/invalidate this variety. This is not within the large L48 subclade.

When it comes to royal lineages, I think the historical/genealogical record is probably good, but NPE rates must still be considered. ISOGG recomends, based on NPE studies, that "when the father is confident he is the father", we use an NPE rate of 4% per generation. To go back to 910AD would require 30 generations which means the odds are 71% that there will be NPE. The triangulation becomes very important.  The more that distant cousins can be tested, the wider the triangulation, the better we can reduce the chances of an NPE.
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 05:41:25 PM »

The  Duke of Buccleuch was tested by Ethnoancestry (Scotland's DNA) he came back as L744+, L745+. He is direct male line descendant from Charles II of England via his illegimate son James Scott, 1st Duke of Monmouth (who was executed after his rebellion in 1685)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scott,_1st_Duke_of_Monmouth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Buccleuch

Obviously he wasn't tested for DF41 as it wasn't available at the result but given the phylogenetic tree it's obvious that he is DF41+

-Paul
(DF41+)

I don't know if it is posted on the internet anywhere, but I found the descendancy tree of Alexander the 4th High Steward of Scotland. Descending from this Alexander's lineages include one for a man who lived in the 1300s, John Stewart of Bonkyll,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stewart_of_Bonkyll_%28d.1298%29
and Robert II of Scotland, who also lived in the 1300's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_of_Scotland

The Stuart/Stewart project has associated pedigrees with kit numbers for three different lineages going back to Robert II and two going back to John of Bonkyll.

I can't evaluate the genealogy/pedigrees provided, but from a triangulation viewpoint, they've pretty much eliminated NPE concerns going back to this timeframe. I don't see how they could do anything more as a project to validate the lineages other than ancient DNA testing.

P.S. My Rhea lineage threw in with James Scott, the Duke of Monmouth. It was bad idea for my family, but I guess that helped motivate their eventual move to America. I guess that's as close to royalty as I get. LOL.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 05:43:55 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 05:45:18 PM »

He is only 14 of the Magoons,a name associated with the Picts of Scotland. He must have been a stray Scot.

I'm missing something. Is this a joke?
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 05:50:52 PM »

Indeed however I don't think we can tell for certain if there was an NPE in period between the 4th stuart and their purported ancestor in Brittany. We know obviously that DF41 is present in Galloway (1426er's), the Stewart territory in Scotland before their rise to the Kingship was in Ayrshire (right beside Galloway) so ye never know

Of course if we start seeing some Breton/French DF41+ who are close to the L744+ modal then perhaps the genealogy is correct all way back to Alan fitz Flaad.
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 05:50:57 PM »

.... The last high king of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was High King form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

Are there any varieties/clusters that claim to be descended from King Ruadhri/Rory?
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »

... Brian Ua Néill declared High King, killed at battle of Druim Dearg (battle of Down) in 1260 against the Normans.

What varieties/clusters are considered the leading candidates as descedants of King Brian?
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 06:36:27 PM »

.... The last high king of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was High King form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

Are there any varieties/clusters that claim to be descended from King Ruadhri/Rory?

Ruaidhrí's male line ancestors faded away from political power during the 13th century. The last to hold kingship of Connacht been Aodh (Aedh mac Ruaidri Ua Conchobhair) who was King from 1228-33, here are some extracts from the Annals (taken from wiki)

Quote
"Vast war arose between Aed and Toirrdelbach, the two sons of Ruaidri O Conchobair, after the death of Aed mac Cathail Chrodbeirg, for the younger did not yield respect to the elder; so that all Connacht was ruined between them and turned into a continuous desert from Ballysadare southward to the River of the Ui Fiachrach, excepting only a small tract in Sliab Luga and Lucht Artig."
"Richard son of William Burke arrived from England, bringing with him his appointment as Justiciar by the King; and a great assembly was convened by the Galls of Ireland and the Gaels, including the kings and chieftains of Ireland, in Connacht about the two sons of Ruaidri, Toirrdelbach and Aed. Most unfortunate was the decision they came to there, to give the kingship to the younger and to expel the elder, Toirrdelbach son of Ruaidri, though he was irreproachable as regards valour, nobility and generosity. However, all the Connachtmen elected Aed son of Ruaidri in the presence of Galls and Gaels; and when they had reached the assembly he and the men of Connacht made for Carnfree, where he was installed, as was customary with every king who had ruled over Connacht before him."
For the year 1233: "Fedlim son of Cathal Crobderg marched into Connacht and Cormac son of Tomaltach [Mac Diarmata], king of Moylurg, came to meet him and brought him into Moylurg and they encamped at Druim Grecraige—[Fedlim], Cormac and his son Conchobar, the three Tuatha and Donnchad and Muirchertach sons of Muirchertach Mac Diarmata. They all determined to go after Aed mac Ruaidri king of Connacht and the rest of Ruaidri's descendants; and they inflicted on them such a routing and scattering that the kingship and sovranty of the province of Connacht was taken from the seed of Ruaidri on that day. Aed mac Ruaidri king of Connacht, Aed Muimnech mac Ruaidri and his son, Donnchad Mor son of Diarmait mac Ruaidri and many others not here recorded were slain there. For Aed Muimnech had violated the sanctuary of Tibohine and plundered it, and many other churches and sacred buildings had been plundered by them, so that they fell [by the hand of their enemies] to avenge the honour of the saints and churches of Connacht."


 Of course given that his brother Cathal Crobhdearg had seized the kingship of Connacht it's not surprising (he held it until his death in 1224). The sons of Ruaidhrí were involved in fighting with his son with aid of De Burgo's. The line fades into obscurity though by end of 13th century. The main dispute regarding the kingship were between the descendats of Feidlim mac Cathal Ua Conchobhair (son of Cathal Crobhdearg) and Clann Muircheartaigh Uí Conchobhair (descendant from Cathal Crobhdearg and Ruaidhrí half brother Muirchertach Muimhnech -- mumhneach implies he was fostered in Munster-- who died in 1210).

Quote
... the earliest, most aristocratic and best documented example of increasing nomadism in the northern half of Ireland in the late middle ages. ... In spite of the fact that they were a very numerous branch of the O'Conor family, who supplied five kings to the throne of Connacht, they seem to have vanished away in the early fifteenth century, never to be heard of again. -- Katherine Simms


The Uí Chonchobair belong to the "Uí Bhriúin" (Uí Briúin) dynastical grouping specifically the the "Uí Bhríuin Aí" -- their branch been called the "Síol Muiredhaigh".

Uí Bhriúin = descendants of Brion, the supposed older half brother of Niall. Unsurprising we see O'Connor's who are M222+

Síól Muireadhaigh = "seed of Muireadhach" (anglisced as Silmurray) are the descendants of Muireadhach who died in 701.

Quote
SIOL MUIREADHAIGH (Silmurray), seed of Muireadhach Muilleathan, King of Connacht, who died in the year 701; the clan-name of the O'Connors and their correlatives in Connacht, including the MacDermotts, MacDonoughs, O'Beirnes, O'Flanagans, Mageraghtys and O'Finnaghtys.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 06:39:18 PM »

... Brian Ua Néill declared High King, killed at battle of Druim Dearg (battle of Down) in 1260 against the Normans.

What varieties/clusters are considered the leading candidates as descedants of King Brian?

Perhaps the "O'Neill Varient" as discussed in the following article on JOGG.
www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf -- Insights Into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA Testing

It appears to be line of the Tyrone O'Neills during later medieval period. What's interesting about it is that it's P312+, L21-, U152-, Z196- (hasn't been tested for DF19 or DF27 let). There is an implicaiton of a NPE in the O'Neill line during the period that they had been ousted from the Kingship of Aileach (Northern Uí Néill -- specifically Cénel nEoghain)
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 06:40:53 PM »

.... The last high king of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was High King form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

Are there any varieties/clusters that claim to be descended from King Ruadhri/Rory?

There is a sequence claim to Rory's line in the Conner Project

64493 Cathal Crovderg O'Conor R1b1a2a1a1b4b
12 25 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9-11 11 11 25 14 18 30 15-16-16-17
...and so on. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/conner/results

The person who listed the sequence is not the tested person. When I asked who supplied the dna sample I was told "a little bird in Roscommon gave it to him."

There was some story I read about the red hand..and how they found Cathal working on a farm and placed on the throne. the sequence was added to the Conner Project as such and the person did not have the genealogy line completed. I still have to wonder if it is as it claims.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 06:46:03 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »

I sh
.... The last high king of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was High King form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

Are there any varieties/clusters that claim to be descended from King Ruadhri/Rory?

There is a sequence claim to Rory's line in the Conner Project

64493 Cathal Crovderg O'Conor R1b1a2a1a1b4b
12 25 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9-11 11 11 25 14 18 30 15-16-16-17
...and so on. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/conner/results

Thge person who listed the sequece is not of this line. when I asked who supplied the dna sample I was told "a little bird in Roscommon gave it to him."

There was some story I read about the red hand..and how they found Cathal working on a farm and placed on the throne. the sequence was added to the Conner Project as such and the person did not have the genealogy line completed. I still have to wonder if it is as it claims.

The only way to be certain would be to get the current "O'Conor Don" to test he is a linear descendant of Cathal Crobhdearg after all. There's a copy of his tree on wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93_Conchubhair_Donn

However there are several M222 O'Connors in projects, likewise men bearing surnames McDonagh, McDermot and Flanagan have tested M222+, these surnames all belong to Síol Muireadhaigh like the O'Connor's  of Connacht.

There is a published account of innaguration of Cathal Crobhdearg availbale online, it's a translation of an Irish language manuscript written by someone who was present at it:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=FDgGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA335#v=onepage&q&f=false
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 06:49:06 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
OConnor
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 06:50:25 PM »

But I guess we are way off-topic. This thread is about Kings of the British Isles ;)
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 09:28:52 PM »

.... The last high king of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was High King form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

Are there any varieties/clusters that claim to be descended from King Ruadhri/Rory?

There is a sequence claim to Rory's line in the Conner Project

64493 Cathal Crovderg O'Conor R1b1a2a1a1b4b
12 25 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9-11 11 11 25 14 18 30 15-16-16-17
...and so on. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/conner/results

The person who listed the sequence is not the tested person. When I asked who supplied the dna sample I was told "a little bird in Roscommon gave it to him."

There was some story I read about the red hand..and how they found Cathal working on a farm and placed on the throne. the sequence was added to the Conner Project as such and the person did not have the genealogy line completed. I still have to wonder if it is as it claims.

I'd like to copy any long Conner/Connor/O'Connor haplotypes that are L21+/M222+ or predicted into the Haplotype_Data_R-L21All spreadsheet to see if what relationships might unfold.

However, it is difficult to do and stay updated when it is not from an FTDNA project web site. I've just sent a request to an meplummer. Can  you ask your project admin to turn on the FTDNA public web site Y classic and Y SNP reports from the FTDNA GAP tool?
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stoneman
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 07:28:38 AM »

I looked at Coburg's matches at ysearch and he seems to be related to the Scots. If he is of German descent then his matches should be Germans. He is 14 of the Magoon modal and it is a top of the range Scottish surname.Where is the joke?



He is only 14 of the Magoons,a name associated with the Picts of Scotland. He must have been a stray Scot.

I'm missing something. Is this a joke?
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012, 07:45:32 AM »

Brian Picton Swann is the ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator and England and Wales. He posted this summary on the U106 yahoo group.
Quote from: Brian Picton Swann
Norman

Allegedly starts with Rollo the Viking or Rollo the Ganger. The legitimate male line died out with Henry I in 1135. I am not an expert on his illegitimate children, who are very considerable (see Wiki link). No reason why he could not be Haplogroup I. Some appreciable work could be done nowadays on his illegitimate male lines to see how far they could be traced.  Cokayne has to be an excellent start point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England

King Henry is famed for holding the record for more than twenty acknowledged illegitimate children, the largest number born to any English king; they turned out to be significant political assets in subsequent years, his bastard daughters cementing alliances with a flock of lords whose lands bordered Henry's.  He had many mistresses, and identifying which mistress is the mother of which child is difficult. [G. E. Cokayne, in his Complete Peerage, Vol. XI, Appendix D pps 105–121 attempts to elucidate Henry I's illegitimate children. For Mistress Sybil Corbet, he indicates that Rohese married Henry de la Pomerai [ibid.:119]. In any case, the dates concerning Rohese in the above article are difficult to reconcile on face value, her purported children having seemingly been born before their mother, and also before the date of her mother's purported marriage.]

We might know Rollo's haplogroup in not too long: http://www.explicofund.org/index-3.html
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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2012, 08:04:57 AM »



We might know Rollo's haplogroup in not too long: http://www.explicofund.org/index-3.html

Wow! That latest April 2012 blurb seems to be the follow up to June of 2011:

Quote

June 2011
This week we underwent a trip together with professor Per Holck to Rouen and Fécamp in order to make sure we will be able to open the tomb in Fécamp and retrieve DNA from Richard I and Richard II. First of all: All indications show that it is the actual remains of Richard I and Richard II in the tomb. This has caused some anticipation with us and we are now glad, as we say in Norway, to continue. All our meetings went very well! A representative from the Norwegian embassy in Paris was also present to help in our progress. This has now become a joint French-Norwegian cultural project involving many parties, all both positive and eager to find out more about Rollo and his descendants.


Awesome!
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2012, 08:19:38 AM »

I looked at Coburg's matches at ysearch and he seems to be related to the Scots. If he is of German descent then his matches should be Germans. He is 14 of the Magoon modal and it is a top of the range Scottish surname.Where is the joke?

He is only 14 of the Magoons,a name associated with the Picts of Scotland. He must have been a stray Scot.

I'm missing something. Is this a joke?

I didn't understand your short hand "He is only 14 of the Magoons." I guess you are saying GD of 14 from the U106 Magoons.  Right?
.. and nothing to do with the Scots Modal (L21+) people.


f231054   P93DY R-U106 Dedi Graf im Hasegau (Coburg) (von Oldenburg), b.c.916, Wettin, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

is closer to these guys
f33310   RPQKW R-U106 Hugh Keys, d.1733 Derryvullan, Co. Fermanagh, Ulster, Ireland
f175525   noYs  R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305* James Kidder, b.1626, England
f143359   2SMDR R-U106 Hugh Thompson, b.1699, Ulster, Northern Ireland

Thanks to the Magoons, but I see two of those are from Northern Ireland.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:45:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2012, 08:48:15 AM »

We might know Rollo's haplogroup in not too long: http://www.explicofund.org/index-3.html

... let's hope they have moved on through the bureaucratic process since April.
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2012, 08:56:47 AM »


Perhaps the "O'Neill Varient" as discussed in the following article on JOGG.
www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf -- Insights Into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA Testing

It appears to be line of the Tyrone O'Neills during later medieval period. What's interesting about it is that it's P312+, L21-, U152-, Z196- (hasn't been tested for DF19 or DF27 let). There is an implicaiton of a NPE in the O'Neill line during the period that they had been ousted from the Kingship of Aileach (Northern Uí Néill -- specifically Cénel nEoghain)

Have they any plans to test for DF27, Dubhthach? I'd recommend it. Recently, two close matches of the 'Rox2' 'cluster' tested DF27+ after several of us had similarly tested negative for every new SNP downstream of P312 over the years. A resemblance between the two clusters (they both share a couple of the same key/defining 'signature' off-modal markers) caught my eye a while ago, so out of curiosity I ran both through Ken Nordtvedt's Generations 7 and Generations 111T spreadsheets. Some members of the O'Neill Variant/Variety share 3 of the 5 Rox2 key markers, out of 67.

I copied the O'Neill Variety haplotypes from the FTDNA O'Neill Project. If (big IF) both are DF27*, and if I did the calculation right (30 years per generation) it looks like the clusters might share a common ancestor somewhere around 2000 years ago.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2012, 02:28:09 PM »

.... The last high king of Ireland before the Norman invasion was Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair (Ruadhrí = Ruairí / Rory is anglisced version). However the current O'Connor Don doesn't descended directly from him but form his younger brother Cathal Crobhdearg (Cathal of the redhand -- probably a winestain birthmark). Their father was Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair who was High King form 1120-1156. He had at least 22 sons by 6 wives.

Are there any varieties/clusters that claim to be descended from King Ruadhri/Rory?

There is a sequence claim to Rory's line in the Conner Project

64493 Cathal Crovderg O'Conor R1b1a2a1a1b4b
12 25 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29 16 9-11 11 11 25 14 18 30 15-16-16-17
...and so on. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/conner/results

The person who listed the sequence is not the tested person. When I asked who supplied the dna sample I was told "a little bird in Roscommon gave it to him."

There was some story I read about the red hand..and how they found Cathal working on a farm and placed on the throne. the sequence was added to the Conner Project as such and the person did not have the genealogy line completed. I still have to wonder if it is as it claims.

I'd like to copy any long Conner/Connor/O'Connor haplotypes that are L21+/M222+ or predicted into the Haplotype_Data_R-L21All spreadsheet to see if what relationships might unfold.

However, it is difficult to do and stay updated when it is not from an FTDNA project web site. I've just sent a request to an meplummer. Can  you ask your project admin to turn on the FTDNA public web site Y classic and Y SNP reports from the FTDNA GAP tool?

Mike from looking at the Ireland yDNA project and filtering for at least 67 STR's I see the following:
  • 232295 -- O'Connor -- M222+
  • 65969 -- O'Connor -- M269, has "Niall sticker" plus has M222+ matches
  • 199412 -- Wilson (ancestor O'Connor) -- M269 has "Niall sticker" plus has M222+ matches

The third one (199412) is interesting as he has very few matches.
  • None at 67 Markers
  • None at 37 Markers
  • 1 at 25 markers -- O'Connor from Tulsk Roscommon -- heart of O'Connor land
  • 10 at 12 markers -- 6 are O'Connor/Connor, 2 are MacManus

The McManus connection is interesting as one of the McManus families in Ireland is a branch of the O'Connors, been descended from a brother of Ruadhrí

Quote
Mac MAGHNUIS, Mac MAGHNUSA—V—M'Manish, M'Moenassa, MacManus, MacManis, Manus, Manasses; 'son of Maghnus' (Latin 'Magnus,' a name adopted by the Northmen in honour of Charlemagne—Carolus Magnus—and by them introduced into Ireland, anglicised Manus); the name (1) of a Roscommon family, descended from Maghnus, son of Turlough Mor O'Connor, King of Ireland, who was slain in the year 1181, formerly seated in Tirhoohil; and (2) of a Fermanagh family, descended from Maghnus, son of Donn Maguire, chief of Fermanagh, who died in 1302. The head of this family lived at Senadh Mic Maghnusa, now Belle Isle, in Lough Erne. The name is often pronounced Mac Maonuis, or Mac Maonusa.

Turlough Mor above is "Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair" High King of Ireland.

One of those two McManus's who is tested to 67STR is also in Ireland Project (H1081), interesting he has a GD of 6 at 67 markers from 65969 (O'Connor) mentioned above. His McManus ancestry been from Roscommon, he has at least one match at 67 who is M222+ (surnamed O'Conor no less)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 02:49:01 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
Dubhthach
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 02:37:29 PM »


Perhaps the "O'Neill Varient" as discussed in the following article on JOGG.
www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf -- Insights Into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA Testing

It appears to be line of the Tyrone O'Neills during later medieval period. What's interesting about it is that it's P312+, L21-, U152-, Z196- (hasn't been tested for DF19 or DF27 let). There is an implicaiton of a NPE in the O'Neill line during the period that they had been ousted from the Kingship of Aileach (Northern Uí Néill -- specifically Cénel nEoghain)

Have they any plans to test for DF27, Dubhthach? I'd recommend it. Recently, two close matches of the 'Rox2' 'cluster' tested DF27+ after several of us had similarly tested negative for every new SNP downstream of P312 over the years. A resemblance between the two clusters (they both share a couple of the same key/defining 'signature' off-modal markers) caught my eye a while ago, so out of curiosity I ran both through Ken Nordtvedt's Generations 7 and Generations 111T spreadsheets. Some members of the O'Neill Variant/Variety share 3 of the 5 Rox2 key markers, out of 67.

I copied the O'Neill Variety haplotypes from the FTDNA O'Neill Project. If (big IF) both are DF27*, and if I did the calculation right (30 years per generation) it looks like the clusters might share a common ancestor somewhere around 2000 years ago.

This is interesting news, what I can do is contact the tester (well his neice) and mention about DF27. The Ireland project had sponsorted the Z196 test. Ideally if we had the funds we would sponsor them for DF27.

I will admit to been ignorant of the Rox2 cluster, can you tell us abit more about it?

-Paul
(DF41+)
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chris1
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2012, 02:45:03 PM »


Perhaps the "O'Neill Varient" as discussed in the following article on JOGG.
www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf -- Insights Into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA Testing

It appears to be line of the Tyrone O'Neills during later medieval period. What's interesting about it is that it's P312+, L21-, U152-, Z196- (hasn't been tested for DF19 or DF27 let). There is an implicaiton of a NPE in the O'Neill line during the period that they had been ousted from the Kingship of Aileach (Northern Uí Néill -- specifically Cénel nEoghain)

Have they any plans to test for DF27, Dubhthach? I'd recommend it. Recently, two close matches of the 'Rox2' 'cluster' tested DF27+ after several of us had similarly tested negative for every new SNP downstream of P312 over the years. A resemblance between the two clusters (they both share a couple of the same key/defining 'signature' off-modal markers) caught my eye a while ago, so out of curiosity I ran both through Ken Nordtvedt's Generations 7 and Generations 111T spreadsheets. Some members of the O'Neill Variant/Variety share 3 of the 5 Rox2 key markers, out of 67.

I copied the O'Neill Variety haplotypes from the FTDNA O'Neill Project. If (big IF) both are DF27*, and if I did the calculation right (30 years per generation) it looks like the clusters might share a common ancestor somewhere around 2000 years ago.

This is interesting news, what I can do is contact the tester (well his neice) and mention about DF27. The Ireland project had sponsorted the Z196 test. Ideally if we had the funds we would sponsor them for DF27.

I will admit to been ignorant of the Rox2 cluster, can you tell us abit more about it?

-Paul
(DF41+)
Great stuff, Paul. Not many know about Rox2, we're low profile :) I recently wrote up the basics here in case anyone might be interested:

https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/
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