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Castlebob
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« on: July 25, 2012, 05:19:24 AM »

I'm re-reading one of Henri Hubert's books on Celts & noticed his map showing a Brigante population in the S E corner of Ireland.
I seem to recall that some people think Ireland is largely L21+, but that there is the occasional L21- hotspot. Does this former Brigante settlement have high levels of L21- evident today?
Cheers,
Bob
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 07:35:55 AM »

Busby et al list one sample location as "Ireland South" and another as "South Ireland". The first is in Tipperary in south central Ireland. The second is in Carlow, about 44 miles or 71 kilometers southwest of Dublin.

In the first (Tipperary), the results were as follows:

Sample size = 89

S21/U106 = 3%

S116/P312 (xL21) = 8%

S145/L21 = 74%

S28/U152 = 1%


In the second (Carlow), the results were as follows:

Sample size = 24

S21/U106 = 8%

S116/P312 (xL21) = 13%

S145/L21 = 58%

S28/U152 = 4%


The Carlow sample was really too small (just 24). Being as far east and as close to the old "Pale" as it is, its results may reflect historical period settlement and y-dna input.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 07:59:53 AM »

As for "the occasional L21- hotspot", there really are none, at least according to Busby et al's figures.

The sample location that comes closest was in Northern Ireland, with the map location given as 54.767 -6.6.

For that location, the figures are as follows:

Sample size = 21

S21/U106 = 14%

S116/P312 (xL21) = 14%

S145/L21 = 48%

S28/U152 = 0%


There again, the sample size was really too small. The history of non-Irish settlement in Northern Ireland is only too well known. No need to repeat it here.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 08:05:12 AM »

Thanks Rich.
Another theory bites the dust.
Cheers,
Bob
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 08:15:14 AM »

Thanks Rich.
Another theory bites the dust.
Cheers,
Bob

I don't know. Maybe Busby didn't sample the specific area where the Brigantes settled. It could also be that that was so long ago it will be hard to trace, given all the subsequent movements into Ireland.

Maybe an ancient y-dna result will turn up that casts more light on the matter.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 09:22:29 AM »

Weren't the brigantes a confederation of different groups instead of a singular group?
Also isn't there supposed to be a link to the Laighin of Ireland and one of these groups, is there a link with the brigantes and the goddess Brigid?
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I-L126
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Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 10:31:06 AM »

That was my interest. There seemed to be Brigantes in the Alps & Gallaecia, along with northern England & beyond.
A depiction of Brighid can be seen at Birrens Fort, (Blatobulgium) in Scotland.
I was hoping there might be some Y-DNA connection of sorts to connect the tribes.
Cheers,
Bob
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 01:39:22 PM »

Brigantes are mentioned in Ptomley's map, however the name doesn't come up as a name of a population group in Irish pseudo-history/mythology. In comparison the "Fir Bolg" and the "Fir Domnann" are often said to be mappings onto the Belgae and Dumnonii.
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Jean M
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 01:45:47 PM »

Brigantes: lived south of the Coriondi. A tribe of the same name occupied much of the north of Britain at this period. A Roman or Romano-British burial at Stoneyford, Co. Kilkenny, raises the possibility of links between these two regions. They presumably shared the patron goddess Briganti. She was Christianised as St Brigit, whose cult was rooted in Leinster/Laighin. The early medieval Irish septs the Uí Brigte (descendants of Brigit) and Uí Bairrche may be survivals of the tribe.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribesireland.shtml
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 01:46:56 PM by Jean M » Logged
inver2b1
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 02:37:00 PM »

Thanks, Iremember reading of a link but I can't remember where.There's also a good chance I took it up wrong.
One more thing on groups in Ireland; the Deisi are suppsoedly named after being vassals to some other group. However the idea of vassals in Ireland was non existant, again it may be something I took up wrong but were the people who the Deisi were supposedly vassals to from Gaul and introduced the idea into Ireland?
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I-L126
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 02:45:43 PM »

Thanks, Iremember reading of a link but I can't remember where.There's also a good chance I took it up wrong.
One more thing on groups in Ireland; the Deisi are suppsoedly named after being vassals to some other group. However the idea of vassals in Ireland was non existant, again it may be something I took up wrong but were the people who the Deisi were supposedly vassals to from Gaul and introduced the idea into Ireland?

Well concept of "overlordship" was innate in Gaelic Ireland right up to it's final destruction in the 17th century. This can be seen across every strata of society.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »

I thought the Irish version was a bit different than what went on the continent.
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I-L126
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 03:18:04 PM »

I thought the Irish version was a bit different than what went on the continent.

As in Feudalism? Yes however it did have a built in system of overlord/sub-chiefs etc. For example the Ó Catháin (Cain/Keane) were uirí (sub-king) of the Ó Néill.

The members of the Deirbhfhine (those who could be elected as next King/Chief) were classified as Flaith (Princes).

Lords would enact many different charges on the freeholders under them. For example the provisioning of troops on households free of charge, provision of a number of paid nights of entertainment for the lord and his troope. Purchase of Sláinte (basically protection money) etc.

"Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages" gives the best explanation regarding Irish society.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 03:29:01 PM »

I understand that even in archaic Ogham Irish the ent/ant element that you see in names like Argentos (silver) and Brigantes already had no n and is thought to be a very early feature of Irish (which is not present in either P-Celtic or Iberian Q-Celtic).  With that in mind it is interesting that the Irish Brigantes has a non-Irish form but the Irish north coast river Argita (silver?) on Ptolemy's map seems to have an Irish form but Brigantes doesnt.  I would think the Irish form of Brigantes would be have been Bregates or something like that.  I do recall it was once argued that the clearly intrusive Lamabay island Iron Age burials may have been down to the Brigantes of northern England.  
 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 04:16:51 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 03:40:50 PM »

Brigantes: lived south of the Coriondi. A tribe of the same name occupied much of the north of Britain at this period. A Roman or Romano-British burial at Stoneyford, Co. Kilkenny, raises the possibility of links between these two regions. They presumably shared the patron goddess Briganti. She was Christianised as St Brigit, whose cult was rooted in Leinster/Laighin. The early medieval Irish septs the Uí Brigte (descendants of Brigit) and Uí Bairrche may be survivals of the tribe.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribesireland.shtml

I recall in Emania somewhere Richard Warner produced maps of Iron Age irish material and he saw Leinster soutth of the Boyne as a place with a majot concentration of Romano-British material of the early centuries AD but little La Tene material.  I agree with other posts that Leinster does have the main concentration of tribes with names with parallels outside Ireland like the Brigantes, Coriondi and also the Menapi.  Of the latter tribe, people tend to look to the Belgic tribe on the Rhine but similar early forms of the name of the  Isle of Man, Anglesey (Mona) and the Menia straights opposite the latter are much more gepgraphically plausible as being liked to the Irish Menapi.  The Menapi could have been some some sort of trading enclave at Drumanagh promontory fort (where lots of late Iron Age and romano-British material was found)  the name of which may echo that of the Menapi. Of course the Fir Domnainn are also linked to Leinster.  Its all a bit unclear but the general impression I get is, as in later times, Leinster was the closest connected to Britain of the Irish provences.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 04:15:47 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
inver2b1
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2012, 03:48:01 PM »

I thought the Irish version was a bit different than what went on the continent.

As in Feudalism? Yes however it did have a built in system of overlord/sub-chiefs etc. For example the Ó Catháin (Cain/Keane) were uirí (sub-king) of the Ó Néill.

The members of the Deirbhfhine (those who could be elected as next King/Chief) were classified as Flaith (Princes).

Lords would enact many different charges on the freeholders under them. For example the provisioning of troops on households free of charge, provision of a number of paid nights of entertainment for the lord and his troope. Purchase of Sláinte (basically protection money) etc.

"Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages" gives the best explanation regarding Irish society.

Yes feudalism. What i remember reading (could have it bass ackwards) was that the Deisi name referred to a type of subject more similar to feudalism, and that this change in type of subject had to do with an incoming new powerful group.
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I-L126
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OConnor
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2012, 06:10:04 PM »

The Brigantes are represented on this map, in the south of Ireland.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire100.htm


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 07:04:17 PM »

A little off topic but it dawned on me that there is a significance to the fact that the Irish word for a foreigner other than Irish or British was Gall which means 'Gaul'.  In the earliest meaning of the word it meant anyone from the continent of Europe.  I think the significance is that this indicates that the Irish's continental contact was so overwhelmigly with Gaul that the word Gall came to mean any non-isles stranger.  Later on it was applied to Vikings and Normans too.  However, it does tend to show that the world beyond the isles to the early Irish was essentially Gaul.
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Rory Cain
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2012, 12:03:17 AM »

I'm re-reading one of Henri Hubert's books on Celts & noticed his map showing a Brigante population in the S E corner of Ireland.
I seem to recall that some people think Ireland is largely L21+, but that there is the occasional L21- hotspot. Does this former Brigante settlement have high levels of L21- evident today?
Cheers,
Bob

The Brigantes (or Ui Baircche to use their Irish name) gave their name to the Barony of Bargy, Co Wexford; the River Barrow which borders Co Wexford, Co Kilkenny, Co Carlow & Co Laois; the Barony of  Slievemargy, Co Laois & Ballyragget (formerly Tullagh mBaircche), Co Kilkenny). So these places are a good start-point.

Rather than being L21- hotspots, the opposite appears to be the case. The Ui Bairrche territory appears to be associated not only with L21 but with its subclade DF21, and in the case of Co Laois,  with the DF5 subclade of DF21.   

Other DF21 hotspots in Ireland appear to be the result of Ui Baircche warriors accepting swordland from other ruling dynasties. The Ciannachta made their name and their individual fortunes from serving as hereditary mercenaries from the DF21 hotspot in Ely O'Carroll territory to the DF21 hotspot in the lands of the Airghialla in south Ulster.

Rory
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