World Families Forums - Rich Rocca et al: R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 22, 2014, 03:25:22 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Rich Rocca et al: R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Rich Rocca et al: R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants  (Read 2575 times)
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« on: July 24, 2012, 06:30:30 PM »

Richard A. Rocca, Gregory Magoon, David F. Reynolds, Thomas Krahn, Vincent O. Tilroe, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, and Andrew J. Grierson, Discovery of Western European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An Online Community Approach,  PLoS ONE 7(7): e41634. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Quote
The authors have used an online community approach, and tools that were readily available via the Internet, to discover genealogically and therefore phylogenetically relevant Y-chromosome polymorphisms within core haplogroup R1b1a2-L11/S127 (rs9786076). Presented here is the analysis of 135 unrelated L11 derived samples from the 1000 Genomes Project. We were able to discover new variants and build a much more complex phylogenetic relationship for L11 sub-clades. Many of the variants were further validated using PCR amplification and Sanger sequencing. The identification of these new variants will help further the understanding of population history including patrilineal migrations in Western and Central Europe where R1b1a2 is the most frequent haplogroup. The fine-grained phylogenetic tree we present here will also help to refine historical genetic dating studies. Our findings demonstrate the power of citizen science for analysis of whole genome sequence data.

Congratulations to all concerned!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 06:36:20 PM by Jean M » Logged
Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 09:40:30 PM »

Richard A. Rocca, Gregory Magoon, David F. Reynolds, Thomas Krahn, Vincent O. Tilroe, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, and Andrew J. Grierson, Discovery of Western European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An Online Community Approach,  PLoS ONE 7(7): e41634. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Quote
The authors have used an online community approach, and tools that were readily available via the Internet, to discover genealogically and therefore phylogenetically relevant Y-chromosome polymorphisms within core haplogroup R1b1a2-L11/S127 (rs9786076). Presented here is the analysis of 135 unrelated L11 derived samples from the 1000 Genomes Project. We were able to discover new variants and build a much more complex phylogenetic relationship for L11 sub-clades. Many of the variants were further validated using PCR amplification and Sanger sequencing. The identification of these new variants will help further the understanding of population history including patrilineal migrations in Western and Central Europe where R1b1a2 is the most frequent haplogroup. The fine-grained phylogenetic tree we present here will also help to refine historical genetic dating studies. Our findings demonstrate the power of citizen science for analysis of whole genome sequence data.

Congratulations to all concerned!

Thanks Jean, it was a real labor of love and one that all who have ordered Z series SNPs has contributed to.

I'd like to add that the trees in the paper are already slightly outdated. Further testing has given us a better idea of the phylogenetic position of some SNPs. Unfortunately we had to have a submission cutoff and those changes were not reflected.
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
razyn
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 406


« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 10:21:10 PM »

Props to the whole team.  I just saw the link on the RootsWeb list and read the paper, before checking in here.  Noticed that you guys had submitted it in March, it was approved in June -- and we've been discovering stuff every few days since June.  Hard for you juried guys to keep up with us hobbyists, ain't it --
Logged

R1b Z196*
Arch Y.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 292


« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 12:58:37 AM »

Richard A. Rocca, Gregory Magoon, David F. Reynolds, Thomas Krahn, Vincent O. Tilroe, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, and Andrew J. Grierson, Discovery of Western European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An Online Community Approach,  PLoS ONE 7(7): e41634. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Quote
The authors have used an online community approach, and tools that were readily available via the Internet, to discover genealogically and therefore phylogenetically relevant Y-chromosome polymorphisms within core haplogroup R1b1a2-L11/S127 (rs9786076). Presented here is the analysis of 135 unrelated L11 derived samples from the 1000 Genomes Project. We were able to discover new variants and build a much more complex phylogenetic relationship for L11 sub-clades. Many of the variants were further validated using PCR amplification and Sanger sequencing. The identification of these new variants will help further the understanding of population history including patrilineal migrations in Western and Central Europe where R1b1a2 is the most frequent haplogroup. The fine-grained phylogenetic tree we present here will also help to refine historical genetic dating studies. Our findings demonstrate the power of citizen science for analysis of whole genome sequence data.

Congratulations to all concerned!

Thanks Jean, it was a real labor of love and one that all who have ordered Z series SNPs has contributed to.

I'd like to add that the trees in the paper are already slightly outdated. Further testing has given us a better idea of the phylogenetic position of some SNPs. Unfortunately we had to have a submission cutoff and those changes were not reflected.

Congrats! So nice to actually see a paper actually come forth out of all the diligent work accomplished through the forums and personal research.

Arch
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 01:27:09 AM »

“Given that U152 is the most frequent marker in northern and central Italy, its new subclades should prove valuable in resolving the fundamental problems of establishing the origin of IE groups in Italy” (pages 6-7). Yes, and before R-L23/L150- and before R-L51, and before R-M269 YCAII=17-23 etc., and before Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini), the R-M269 closest to R1b1, and before R1b1 YCAII=18-22- and 18-23, and before R-V88- etc. etc. Not counting the numerous mtDNA samples I gave, and other Y-haplogroup…
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 01:41:56 AM »

Richard Rocca, be serious! If IE languages were brought by Italy to Iberia, this couldn’t have been done by R-U152, very scarce in Iberia, but from its upstream haplogroups, and as in Iberia there are above all R-P312 and in the land of the first arrival also some R-L51, it is there that you should search.
But the migration from Italy, as I have demonstrated also in these days by some mtDNA haplogroups, happened also by land Northwards and Westwards the Alps. Here you should search for the expansion of R-U152.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 01:58:03 AM »

Richard Rocca, be serious! If IE languages were brought by Italy to Iberia, this couldn’t have been done by R-U152, very scarce in Iberia, but from its upstream haplogroups, and as in Iberia there are above all R-P312 and in the land of the first arrival also some R-L51, it is there that you should search.
But the migration from Italy, as I have demonstrated also in these days by some mtDNA haplogroups, happened also by land Northwards and Westwards the Alps. Here you should search for the expansion of R-U152.

Not sure where you read that, but it doesn't say anything about U152 carrying IE to Iberia. Nor does it say anywhere that L23 or L51 are excluded from bringing IE to Italy.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 02:04:51 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 02:52:30 AM »

Not sure where you read that, but it doesn't say anything about U152 carrying IE to Iberia. Nor does it say anywhere that L23 or L51 are excluded from bringing IE to Italy.

Probably you haven’t written that part of the paper (and probably you haven’t read it later) but the 3 notes to the passage I quoted are

20,21,22

i.e.
20.Mallory JP, Adams DQ (1997) Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. London
and Chicago: Fitzroy-Dearborn.
21. Koch JT (2006) Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia. Anta Barbara: ABCCLIO.
22. Koch JT (2009) A case for Tartessian as a Celtic language. Palaeohispanica 9:
339–351.

then the theory of the origin of the Iberian Celt Languages (Tartessian, Lusitanian) from Italy, being linked to the Celt of Italy (Ligurian) and not to the Celt of France or elsewhere (these languages conserve the *p- that the other Celt languages have lost, etc.).

That the IE languages may have been carried to Iberia from France (the idea you like, I don’t know why) doesn’t explain why Iberian Celt is linked with Ligurian and not with the Celt of France and we don’t understand why Italy hasn’t practically R-L21, which arose probably in France and was carried to the Isles etc. etc.

Widen your glance also to mtDNA and to other Y-haplogroup as I have done from many years, and everything will be clear to you too.
 

« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:38:54 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 05:19:29 AM »

Congratulation Richard and team. It is a great achievement for Citizen Science.
Here is Dienekes comments on the paper.

"It's nice to see a group of independent researchers documenting their work using 1000 Genomes data. I've been following on-and-off developments in this field, and I have to say that it requires deep commitment from the persons involved to keep a mental picture of the ever-deepening phylogeny.

But, in a sense, that is what's great about the efforts of citizen scientists tackling a scientific problem: they are deeply invested in understanding their little part of the human Y-chromosome phylogeny, because it's their part and every SNP discovery in it represents a small victory. Thus, they can expend the time and effort to push the discovery process to its technological limits.

It's only too sad that this can at present be done only using 1000 Genomes data, a.k.a. the global collection of full genome data that completely ignores the part of the world between  Italy and China/India. Hopefully, sometime in the future, the ever-better-understood twig of R1b1a2 will be placed within its wider Eurasian context."

http://dienekes.blogspot.ie/2012/07/r1b1a2-variants-in-1000g-data.html

« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 06:53:30 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 08:28:35 AM »


Probably you haven’t written that part of the paper (and probably you haven’t read it later) but the 3 notes to the passage I quoted are

20,21,22

i.e.
20.Mallory JP, Adams DQ (1997) Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. London
and Chicago: Fitzroy-Dearborn.
21. Koch JT (2006) Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia. Anta Barbara: ABCCLIO.
22. Koch JT (2009) A case for Tartessian as a Celtic language. Palaeohispanica 9:
339–351.

then the theory of the origin of the Iberian Celt Languages (Tartessian, Lusitanian) from Italy, being linked to the Celt of Italy (Ligurian) and not to the Celt of France or elsewhere (these languages conserve the *p- that the other Celt languages have lost, etc.).

That the IE languages may have been carried to Iberia from France (the idea you like, I don’t know why) doesn’t explain why Iberian Celt is linked with Ligurian and not with the Celt of France and we don’t understand why Italy hasn’t practically R-L21, which arose probably in France and was carried to the Isles etc. etc.

Wide your glance also to mtDNA and to other Y-haplogroup as I have done from many years, and everything will be clear to you too.
 

Ah, now I see what all of this is about. Yes, I do think IE arrive in Iberia via coastal southern France, and before that, Liguria.
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 08:47:25 AM »

Ah, now I see what all of this is about. Yes, I do think IE arrive in Iberia via coastal southern France, and before that, Liguria.
The problem is to understand which language and which haplogroups carried to Iberia the agriculturalists who started via sea from the Grotta delle Arene Candide and elsewhere on 7500 years ago. I did know that to think to some IE language and to R1b is too early for almost all the geneticists and the linguists, but the R-L51* you found on Valencia Region and Central Portugal is a sign, that of course may have also other explications, and who knows the “Stele of Novilara”, if the language is really an ancient form of Celt, wouldn’t think so. Of course they may as well have carried a form of Caucasian language and hgs. G2a and I-M26 or some hg. E.
Of course the solution will be given by aDNA, and so far G2a and I-26 and hg. E are in pole position. But I am confident that some R1b will spring up from Italy next.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 10:02:45 AM »

Richard A. Rocca, Gregory Magoon, David F. Reynolds, Thomas Krahn, Vincent O. Tilroe, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, and Andrew J. Grierson, Discovery of Western European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An Online Community Approach,  PLoS ONE 7(7): e41634. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Quote
The authors have used an online community approach, and tools that were readily available via the Internet, to discover genealogically and therefore phylogenetically relevant Y-chromosome polymorphisms within core haplogroup R1b1a2-L11/S127 (rs9786076). ...

Great work folks. It is especially nice that you took the time to document your work. You've probably done more for understanding the phylogeny of R1b1a2a1a1 (L11/S127) than anyone. It may be a couple of years before we truly understand the implications.

I am very proud to know you guys.

I personally thank you to for my three new SNPs, L513(DF1), L706.2 and L705.2.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:04:55 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 10:18:04 AM »

Richard A. Rocca, Gregory Magoon, David F. Reynolds, Thomas Krahn, Vincent O. Tilroe, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, and Andrew J. Grierson, Discovery of Western European R1b1a2 Y Chromosome Variants in 1000 Genomes Project Data: An Online Community Approach,  PLoS ONE 7(7): e41634. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Quote
The authors have used an online community approach, and tools that were readily available via the Internet, to discover genealogically and therefore phylogenetically relevant Y-chromosome polymorphisms within core haplogroup R1b1a2-L11/S127 (rs9786076). ...

Great work folks. It is especially nice that you took the time to document your work. You've probably done more for understanding the phylogeny of R1b1a2a1a1 (L11/S127) than anyone. It may be a couple of years before we truly understand the implications.

I am very proud to know you guys.

I personally thank you to for my three new SNPs, L513(DF1), L706.2 and L705.2.

I concur. Congratulations, Richard!
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »

I was perusing through this paper, and did notice something that stood out regarding the proposed L21 tree.

Z255 is stationed downstream of Z254. I gather this is from 1000 Genomes data, but remember Z255 being ancestral for Z254 (gleaned from Z255+ folks testing Z254-). Did I miss something, or?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:24:51 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jarman
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 58


« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 10:39:25 AM »

I am confused or perhaps just concerned by Figure 5 and the placing of Z301 below Z156 rather than on an equal level. Why?
Logged
acekon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2012, 10:56:33 AM »

Congratulations to you and your team!
Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 12:13:14 AM »

Not sure where you read that, but it doesn't say anything about U152 carrying IE to Iberia. Nor does it say anywhere that L23 or L51 are excluded from bringing IE to Italy.
Probably you haven’t written that part of the paper (and probably you haven’t read it later) but the 3 notes to the passage I quoted are
20,21,22
i.e.
20.Mallory JP, Adams DQ (1997) Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. London
and Chicago: Fitzroy-Dearborn.
21. Koch JT (2006) Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia. Anta Barbara: ABCCLIO.
22. Koch JT (2009) A case for Tartessian as a Celtic language. Palaeohispanica 9:
339–351.
then the theory of the origin of the Iberian Celt Languages (Tartessian, Lusitanian) from Italy, being linked to the Celt of Italy (Ligurian) and not to the Celt of France or elsewhere (these languages conserve the *p- that the other Celt languages have lost, etc.).
That the IE languages may have been carried to Iberia from France (the idea you like, I don’t know why) doesn’t explain why Iberian Celt is linked with Ligurian and not with the Celt of France and we don’t understand why Italy hasn’t practically R-L21, which arose probably in France and was carried to the Isles etc. etc.
Widen your glance also to mtDNA and to other Y-haplogroup as I have done from many years, and everything will be clear to you too.

Actually it seems that Tartessian has lost the *p-:

“te’-e.ro-baare erabore=, also te’-ee.ro-baare [J.18.2] ‘[this grave] has received him/it’: preverb tu + pronoun e(n) + perfect ro + verb *ber- ‘receive, carry’. All elements are well attested in Old Irish compound verbs, though b_re as the third-person singular perfect of *ber- is unique to Tartessian. ro preceding a verb and showing loss of p- (< Indo-European *pro) is clearly Celtic.

ata`eahe, cf. Old Breton attanoc ‘winged creature’, Old Welsh hataned ‘wings’, Early Welsh (Y Gododdin): aer edenawc; aer seirchyawc ‘winged [= armed with spears] in battle, harnessed in battle’: Indo-European *ptn_- : *pet(e)r- ‘wing, feather’. The central square of the inscribed stone shows a warrior girded in armour with both arms extended brandishing weapons, which appear to include short spears”.

It is Lusitanian to retain it, and this demonstrates that Celt languages of France and of the Isles derive from a language developed in Iberia, whereas Ligurian retained always the *p-, if the river Polcevera derives from *porķo-bhera, and that the Celt of Iberia derives from Ligurian and in very ancient times is reinforced. These are the conclusions of Koch 2009:

“It is sometimes possible to interpret these texts as continuous funerary statements in an Ancient Celtic language, favouring the conclusion that Celtic is the language of the southwestern inscriptions, rather than another language with isolated Celtic names […] That general conclusion could carry important implications for historians and archaeologists. It reinforces something we have known for some time, namely that the Celtic languages in the Iberian Peninsula—
possibly unlike those of Gaul and Britain—cannot be explained as the result of the spread of the La Tène and Hallstatt archaeological cultures of the central European Iron Age. To find Celtic extensively used so far to the south-west at such an early date must also call into question the relevance of Hallstatt’s Late Bronze Age forerunner, the Urnfield cultures, in the  Celticization of the Peninsula. The immediate background and context of the earliest attested Celtic language appears, instead, to be the Atlantic Late Bronze Age, a conclusion broadly resonant with ideas expressed by Almagro (e.g. 1995), as well as the new theories concerning the origins of the Celtic languages of Cunliffe (2001) and Brun (2006)”.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 12:20:19 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 07:07:06 AM »

At this point we can clearly hypothesize that an Italic-Celt language was the language of Bell Beakers expanded from Iberia and derived from Italy (where Ligurian, Lepontian, language of the Novilara Stele etc. remained, besides the Italic languages) and they gave life in Central Europe to Hallstatt and La Tène and not the other way around.
The distinction between p/q Celt like the p/q Italic may have these two ways of expansion too, independent from the Etruscan influx as has been hypothesized. Anyway it may be happened in Italy, where Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun were they too indigenous, and the link p/q languages also from already differentiated Italic and Celt could be due to some linguistic league.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:42:19 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 01:26:40 PM »

Gioiello, I'm not sure I understand. I've read that Ligurian, like Latin, Faliscan, Q-Celtic, Celtiberian, etc. retained the kw → qu ???

Do you have a source you could point us to?
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 03:36:06 PM »

Gioiello, I'm not sure I understand. I've read that Ligurian, like Latin, Faliscan, Q-Celtic, Celtiberian, etc. retained the kw → qu ???

Do you have a source you could point us to?

These are two different problems (I am writing by memory and it is possible that about something I am wrong).
1)   The first is the evolution of IE *p-, retained in Latin and all the other Italic languages, but lost in Celt languages, except Lusitanian. This would link it to Ligurian, where *p- is maintained. I did before the example of Polcevera, if from Ligurian *porkyo-bhera. See for instance some Celt words like iasg (Latin piscis), athir (Latin pater).
2)   The second question is the evolution of the labiovelar *kw:
Latin quis / Osco- Umbrian pis
IE for “4” is quattuor in Latin but pedwar in p-Celt and caethir in kw-Celt.
I haven’t at hands my books and certainly many Celt-speaking people in the forum do know this better than me. But for the linguists the thing is clear.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 04:08:34 PM »

Gioiello, I'm not sure I understand. I've read that Ligurian, like Latin, Faliscan, Q-Celtic, Celtiberian, etc. retained the kw → qu ???

Do you have a source you could point us to?

Proto-Celtic lost Proto-Indo-European *P, then later a new p sound arose from shifting of kw -> p. This occurred in Brythonic and Gaulish.

As a result in Brythonic you find P's that wouldn't be present in cognate words in a different IE branch.

To go on the fish example that Maliclavelli mentions here's a comparison:

Proto-IE: *peysk- (fish)
Proto-Celtic: ēskos
Irish: iasc (éisc = plural/genitive)
Latin: piscis
Italian: pesce

As evident Latin and the Romance languages retained Proto-IE *p, but given that it was lost in Proto-Celtic it's missing from all surviving Celtic languages. A simple example of the later kw -> P shift is the following:

Irish: Ceathair
French: Quatre
Latin: Quattuor

vs.

Welsh: Pedwar/Pedair (Masculine/Feminine)
Gaulish: Petuarios
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2151


« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 04:13:58 PM »

I have found this posting of mine on the Rokus’ blog. Look at the date:

1.   Gioiello Tognoni
April 19, 2010 at 17:50  

The explication of Celt and Umbrian p- from kw- as due to Etruskan influence isn’t convincing. This is a linguistic change diffused all over the world and happened many times also from Latin to Neolatin languages (Rum. limba from Latin “lingua” presupposes the parallel b from gw-, the same in Sardinian “limba”. Rum. apa from “aqua”, Sardinian “abba” etc.) The problem could be put in a different way as an influence of substratum if we presuppose that there was a Rhaetic-Etruskan substratum in Europe and that Rhaetic-Etruskan was a relict of an ancient phase of the Indoeuropean, those R1b1* which from the Rhaetian-Etruskan fatherland peopled all Europe and Mediterranean shores after the Younger Dryas, like I think is going to be demonstrated at genetic level. See the last postings on http://www.worldfamilies.net/ by me and Argiedude.
If really Etruskan “puplu” presupposes the IE *kwekwlo- the link from Rhaetian-Etruskans and Indo-Europeans should be dated to many thousands of years ago and not in historic times.
   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 04:14:19 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2012, 04:23:49 PM »

Yes, re-reading Gioiello's original comment regarding Ligurian, it is now obvious that he was not talking about the labiovelar shift which I am very well aware of. Thanks.
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
df.reynolds
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 126


« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 12:14:51 AM »

I am confused or perhaps just concerned by Figure 5 and the placing of Z301 below Z156 rather than on an equal level. Why?
Thank you for pointing this out. Z301 and Z156 are located at a peer level under Z381, and this was shown correctly in Figure 4 of the article. A note was attached to the article, noting that the placement shown in Figure 5 is incorrect.

Regards,
david
Logged
Jarman
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 58


« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2012, 10:23:41 AM »

I am confused or perhaps just concerned by Figure 5 and the placing of Z301 below Z156 rather than on an equal level. Why?
Thank you for pointing this out. Z301 and Z156 are located at a peer level under Z381, and this was shown correctly in Figure 4 of the article. A note was attached to the article, noting that the placement shown in Figure 5 is incorrect.

Regards,
david

May I suggest/request that corrected Figures be made available when the dust settles?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.146 seconds with 18 queries.