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Bren123
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« on: July 24, 2012, 01:19:06 AM »

Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.


http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/
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Castlebob
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 01:49:08 AM »

I wish these reports/studies would publish their Y-DNA data. That would be useful!
A few years ago I read that DNA studies were due to take place in Cumbria & Denmark. I haven't heard what the outcome of either was. Again, I wonder if they'll report anything other than vague, sweeping statements.
Cheers,
Bob
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 01:59:43 AM »

This is what I have always thought just looking at Welsh DNA and it is a rule that the most ancient people are in the Western corner of a country if invasions came from East.
Also the R-L21 of Richard Stevens seems older than others and probably from Wales etc. etc.
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Maliclavelli


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Bren123
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 02:10:47 AM »

This is what I have always thought just looking at Welsh DNA and it is a rule that the most ancient people are in the Western corner of a country if invasions came from East.
Also the R-L21 of Richard Stevens seems older than others and probably from Wales etc. etc.

Rubbish R-L21 is nowhere near that age and it is also the predominate haplogoup,I suppose it's poosble that E1b1b at that early stage!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 02:36:59 AM by Bren123 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 03:49:34 AM »

Rubbish R-L21 is nowhere near that age and it is also the predominate haplogoup,I suppose it's poosble that E1b1b at that early stage!

Of course I didn’t mean that R-L21 is 10000 years old, only that also the R-L21 of Rich Stevens could be one of the first R-L21 arrived in the Isles: we will see when his SNP test arrives.
“Rubbish R-L21”?

Difficult to say which haplogroups arrived in the Isles 10000 years ago, but there are many R1b1*, also R1a-M420*, and of course E-V68 and E-V257 were present in Italy at that time (or in Iberia) and may have come to the Isles with many other ancient haplogroups.
Also the mtDNA should be investigated. I have done it for my K1a1b1e, but also yesterday with K1a2, more ancient, born in Italy probably, and present it too in the Isles with the “Italian” mutation A16399G etc. etc.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »

Also K1a2 GQ281051 with the many and abundant mutations in HVRI (T16093C C16021T T16224C C16278T T16311C T16519C) is from the Isles because on SMGF there 5 people from the US of probably British descent.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 04:16:04 AM »

Wales isn't a country I've studied in great depth, but I did try & find out what the oldest surnames/lineages were there. I gather the Pugh surname is as old as most. Looking at the SNPs for the surname shows a vast majority of R1b1a2 testees. Those who have tested further seem to be split reasonably evenly between R1b1a2a1a1b & R1b1a2a1a1b4. L21- is evident in the former, while L21+ is in the latter.

I'd like to see some of the L21- chaps test L238 etc. I know that a Jones & Williams have tested L238-. I believe someone from Bristol is also L238-. Of the 6 or 7 who are L238- etc, several are now testing for Z245 & L459. I hope to have my results in soon, & am keen to see what they show. Probably negative!!!

Cheers,
Bob
EDIT: I've just looked at Powell - similar to Pugh.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 04:59:16 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 06:47:33 AM »

I think Gioiello was just being facetious and having some fun, since the idea of "invasions out of the East" is one of his pet peeves, and he knows full well that my haplotype isn't all that far off the WAMH. I am a typical DF13+, apparently like most men of British and Irish ancestry.

It would be nice if we knew what aspect of Welsh dna this study is talking about.

Besides, most of my matches come from the West Midlands and not Wales.
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ironroad41
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 06:56:15 AM »

Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.


http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/

What is your basis for calling this nonsense?
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 07:01:39 AM »

This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.


That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.
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ironroad41
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 07:15:17 AM »

This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.


That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.

I wish someone would identify the haplotypes of the early inhabitants of Scotland/Midlands, the so-called Caledonians and Maetae (sp).  These folks were "native " to the area, it is all they apparently knew until Rome came.

What if R-L21 turns out to be older than is commonly thought on this board?  Would it surprise you?  Of course, but thats because of the acceptance that variance/diversity describe the mutational Y STR process.  I think that has been shown to be questionable at best.  So, in some sense, you are back to square one on dating.

I, freely admit that I don't have a handle on times greater than 2K back in time.  What data do you have that says it is so and how did you verify it??
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 07:16:24 AM by ironroad41 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 07:40:47 AM »

It would surprise me. I have never believed R1b of any kind has been in Western Europe since before the last Ice Age, and I still don't. That would put it too far from home, too soon, and with far less diversity than it should have, if it were that old.

I think the "Ice Age R1b" thing is an artifact of a number of errors. Probably foremost among them was the old idea, which goes back at least to the 19th century, that the Basques are some sort of Paleolithic remnant population. Due to that idea, scientists were predisposed to see any y haplogroup predominant among the Basques as the paramount European aboriginal y haplogroup. It happened to be R1b, so - voila! - there you have it: we're all the descendants of Cro Magnon Man.

There is also a history of peopling, or of wanting to people, the "Celtic Fringe" with a more primitive, more barbaric, and less enlightened form of humanity. That made the political domination of the area more palatable. I'm not saying that is the modern motive, but it certainly informed the opinions of the past, and those opinions became fossilized and have been inherited intact.

Then you have the fact that certain European flora and fauna apparently did move out of the F-C Refuge after the LGM. The natural inclination, upon seeing that, would be to conclude that the majority y- haplogroup in western Europe must have been among them.

Certainly some elements of the idea are probably true. Perhaps elements of a Paleolithic or Mesolithic heritage are traceable in west European autosomal dna and perhaps even in its mtDNA.

But I strongly doubt that any kind of R1b stems from that long ago in western Europe. Paleolithic y-dna in western Europe probably either no longer exists or exists only in vestiges here and there. Or it may be best represented by its downstream descendants in y haplogroup I.

Time and more ancient y-dna findings might eventually tell the tale.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 07:46:53 AM by rms2 » Logged

Castlebob
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 07:51:26 AM »

An open mind & the ability to think laterally have certainly been necessary in genealogical studies, & I suppose it's much the same with DNA. As ever, we're hampered by a lack of Y-DNA from several countries of great interest to us. Also, it can be tough persuading people to upgrade their tests - particularly in these times of financial constraints.
I'm banking on a lottery win!
Cheers,
Bob
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 08:09:57 AM »

An open mind & the ability to think laterally have certainly been necessary in genealogical studies, & I suppose it's much the same with DNA. As ever, we're hampered by a lack of Y-DNA from several countries of great interest to us. Also, it can be tough persuading people to upgrade their tests - particularly in these times of financial constraints.
I'm banking on a lottery win!
Cheers,
Bob


I think a problem we face is that a lot of bigshots hitched their wagons to the "Paleolithic R1b" star very early on. Difficult for them to reverse course now. Saying, "I was wrong", in the scientific world involves a loss of prestige. It means one might not be such a godlike, farsighted genius after all. Rather than risk that, it's easier just to dig in one's heels, barricade the Lascaux Caves, and start defending the old idea.

Expect it. Busby may have been the first shot, as it seemed specifically targeted at Balaresque's paper.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:10:40 AM by rms2 » Logged

Castlebob
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2012, 08:30:55 AM »

True. I know of several genealogists who made huge claims, were proved to be wrong, then disappeared from the scene rather than lose face.
I know it's a bit bland, but generally it's better to say "I'm leaning heavily towards this theory..." , rather than stating something is 100% rock solid. At least it allows for some back-tracking!
Cheers,
Bob
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eochaidh
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2012, 08:40:31 AM »

This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Autosomal scores may fit in with this since I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian (mostly from Brittany, Normandy and La Rochelle).

I have a higher Caucasus score than Irish testers, about 3% higher than the highest. However, my Caucausus score is equal to that of a few Cornish testers and at times even lower than some French and Dutch testers.

I think this could show a greater Neolithic Farmer influence and especially G2a. Then again, it could be a later Alanic G2a. The Alans were thought to have settled in Brittany, Cornwall and Wales.

That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:41:36 AM by eochaidh » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2012, 08:42:03 AM »

True. I know of several genealogists who made huge claims, were proved to be wrong, then disappeared from the scene rather than lose face.
I know it's a bit bland, but generally it's better to say "I'm leaning heavily towards this theory..." , rather than stating something is 100% rock solid. At least it allows for some back-tracking!
Cheers,
Bob


Well, if it turns out I'm wrong and they find an R1b European caveman tomorrow, I have no reputation to guard. I'll just say, "Well, I'll be!", and go on with my life.

I don't think that's going to happen, but you never know.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:43:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2012, 08:44:45 AM »

This sounds interesting:

Quote
He said people from south and north Wales genetically have “fairly large similarities with the ancestry of people from Ireland on the one hand and France on the other, which we think is most likely to be a combination of remnants of very ancient populations who moved across into Britain after the last Ice Age.

“And potentially also, people travelling up the Atlantic coast of France and Spain and settling in Wales many thousands of years ago”.


That "Ireland . . . and France" bit sounds like L21. There's plenty of L21 in England, too, but perhaps they're looking at overall percentages. Wales as a whole probably has a higher frequency of L21 than England. But maybe a large part of this is autosomal. It would be interesting to see the report itself.

Sounds like it is coming out of the People of the British Isles Project, since the Wellcome Trust was mentioned.

I hope they don't try to tie that "last Ice Age" stuff to L21.

I wish someone would identify the haplotypes of the early inhabitants of Scotland/Midlands, the so-called Caledonians and Maetae (sp).  These folks were "native " to the area, it is all they apparently knew until Rome came.

What if R-L21 turns out to be older than is commonly thought on this board?  Would it surprise you?  Of course, but thats because of the acceptance that variance/diversity describe the mutational Y STR process.  I think that has been shown to be questionable at best.  So, in some sense, you are back to square one on dating.

I, freely admit that I don't have a handle on times greater than 2K back in time.  What data do you have that says it is so and how did you verify it??

If L21 turns out to be older than Neolithic in Western Europe that would be a surprise to me, but if it is so be it. I just am not convinced this of high probability.

We are not back to square one on estimating TMRCAs or relative aging. We are not even sure what kind of DNA this guy is evaluating and what his data and rationale are.
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OConnor
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2012, 08:55:11 AM »

I suspect after jumping on, and off the Paleo dna bandwagon many people will sit in the wings waiting for more concrete information. Once bit, twice shy.
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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2012, 09:05:20 AM »

I suspect after jumping on, and off the Paleo dna bandwagon many people will sit in the wings waiting for more concrete information. Once bit, twice shy.

You're probably right. I suspect some of them are also tired of the debate or have just given up on the possibility of ever knowing who is right.

I feel that way about the whole "Indo-European" thing. It's like week-old, curdled milk to me now. Maybe eventually it will turn to cheese, and I'll find my interest in it renewed. :-)
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2012, 11:38:41 AM »

By the way, I split the argument about whether or not L21 is truly Celtic into a separate thread.

So, please stick to the Welsh in this one!
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sernam
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2012, 12:13:44 PM »

 Deja vu all over again? This was mentioned some time ago, on a once promising but now embarrassing thread that’s been closed.   It’s not just about Y.  

http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps/
   
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 12:14:43 PM by sernam » Logged
Castlebob
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2012, 01:16:09 PM »

I sometimes use Ancestry's Surname Origins map to see where hot-spots of various surnames occur. Admittedly these use data from 19th C Census returns, so one has to factor in the magnet effect of large cities attracting workers from outlying areas.
Among the surnames I recently entered  were Pugh, Powell, Jones & Williams. The results tend to be more or less as one might expect - heaviest in Wales & Cheshire, then petering out the further east you go.
I've done similar with a variety of surnames, for different reasons, & I have to say that the areas one might expect a heavier Brythonic Celt presence, ie the far western counties of England, Wales, Strathclyde etc , dovetails with the maps one finds describing 6th C British tribes.
I appreciate Y-DNA results are somewhat skewed by the heavy influence of testees from Britain, Ireland & N America, but it is still fascinating to see how various patterns emerge.
Cheers,
Bob
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Bren123
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2012, 02:09:17 PM »

Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.


http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/

What is your basis for calling this nonsense?

Well because R-L21 is nowhere near that age and like I mentioned it is the predominate haplogroup in Wales.Another point is that where is the aDNA to back this up? That is why I consider it nonsense and basically a rehash of sykes and then oppenheimer's material!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 02:10:25 PM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »

Not this load of nonsense again!

Welsh people could lay claim to be the most ancient Britons, according to scientists who have drawn up a genetic map of the British Isles.
 
Research suggests the Welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of mainland Britain.
 
Professor Peter Donnelly, of Oxford University, said the Welsh carry DNA which could be traced back to the last Ice Age, 10,000 years ago.
 
The project surveyed 2,000 people in rural areas across Britain.
 
Participants, as well as their parents and grandparents, had to be born in those areas to be included in the study.


http://www.amren.com/news/2012/06/welsh-people-could-be-most-ancient-in-uk-dna-suggests/

What is your basis for calling this nonsense?

Well because R-L21 is nowhere near that age and like I mentioned it is the predominate haplogroup in Wales.Another point is that where is the aDNA to back this up? That is why I consider it nonsense and basically a rehash of sykes and then oppenheimer's material!

I'd imagine that they are only going by Autosomal DNA tests, and that they have probably broken things down to results that are assigned to Hunter Gatherer, Neolithic Farmer and Bronze Age arrivals. Like I mentioned before, it appears that Welsh and Cornish may show higher Caucasus scores that others in Britain or Ireland, and that may be assigned to Neolithic arrivals.

I wouldn't imagine that they are using Y-DNA to make this assertion at all.
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