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rms2
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« on: August 02, 2012, 01:37:16 PM »

I see that L555 is on ISOGG's R tree, but from what I can tell from the R-L21 Plus Project, it has been found in just one family: the Erwin/Irwin/Irvine family.

Is that not the case? Has it been found outside that family?

Thanks in advance!
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 03:01:52 PM »

I see that L555 is on ISOGG's R tree, but from what I can tell from the R-L21 Plus Project, it has been found in just one family: the Erwin/Irwin/Irvine family.

Is that not the case? Has it been found outside that family?

Thanks in advance!

In the Ireland project we have:
3874 -- Hamblen
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 04:10:30 PM »

I see that L555 is on ISOGG's R tree, but from what I can tell from the R-L21 Plus Project, it has been found in just one family: the Erwin/Irwin/Irvine family.

Is that not the case? Has it been found outside that family?

Thanks in advance!

Robert Casey has done a lot of work with the Irvin's on L555. We've collected a pretty good set of 67 STR ht's that appear to fit nicely into a single DF13+ cluster that has been labeled 555-2410-A. The primary off-modal signature is H4=10 385b>=15 YCAII=19,24 570<=16.

I think Robert thinks the GD's of known L555+ people are wide enough that all, or close to all, of the below will be L555+

So far the confirmed tested folks are Irvin surname variants. The exception has been brought up - Hoyt/Hamblen. His Ysearch record indicates there may be some uncertainty about that.


f139577   Brown   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   K3K67
fN41928   Byers   R-L21   Scotland, Dumfries and Galloway, Dumfriesshire   N9VCY
f89644   Byers   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   
f160045   Erwin   R-L21   Ireland, Ulster   NVNKM
f18960   Irving   R-L21   zzzUnkOrigin   PSU2X
f101670   Irwin   R-L21   Scotland   694VT
f178379   Irwin   R-L21   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Trandhill   E3XYX
f102340   Irwin   R-L21   Ireland   MWGSH
f107516   Irwin   R-L21   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Armagh, Loughgall   75VGS
f118263   Magee   R-L21   Ireland   BWSWA
f114797   Erwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   zzzUnkOrigin   ETGMN
f138798   Erwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   zzzUnkOrigin   TWKAS
f65048   Erwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast   DS67G
f153158   Erwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Ulster   R6R69
f3874   Hoyt   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland   H4DT6
f74798   Irvin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Scotland   PMVA8
f22874   Irvine   R-L21/DF13/L555   Scotland, Borders, Roxburghshire, Minto   WKXXJ
f181966   Irvine   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh   8VU5P
f25244   Irvine   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Ulster   
f33141   Irwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland   Z33VT
f72683   Irwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Ulster   UYXFD
f78458   Irwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Londonderry   KWNQC
f115781   Irwin   R-L21/DF13/L555   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin   NSM5D
f102835   Armstrong   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone   4V5F4
f104485   Armstrong   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tryone, Crossvanagh   UFTZP
f63715   Armstrong   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dungannon, Pomeroy Parish   Z8UP5
f211119   Collins   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   
f107731   Elliott   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh   DNRYW
f127915   Elliott   zzL21predicted   UK   QVFH8
f72958   Elliott   zzL21predicted   UK   AS57E
f194922   Ervin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster   P74Z3
f26509   Ervin   zzL21predicted   Scotland   94MCS
f85610   Ervin   zzL21predicted   UK   PRWVE
f47322   Ervin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin, Dublin   252D4
f159997   Erwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster   DUSK4
f111308   Erwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland   SYC62
f93832   Erwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster   RNQZT
f28526   Erwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland   MYBA2
f84825   Erwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Gleno, Raloo Parish   FU9P6
f43116   Houston   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   B4Z8B
f159923   Hutchinson   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   UR4TH
f110086   Irvin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   FNERN
f170798   Irvin   zzL21predicted   Ireland   GHU85
f65875   Irvin   zzL21predicted   Scotland   J4XAD
f23026   Irvin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   EHKTM
f76144   Irvin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   7994W
f58122   Irvin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   UP2NC
f92872   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Scotland, Borders, Dumfries   7GSKH
f28610   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster   79AYA
f105281   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Gleno   4AKDG
f32599   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Scotland   E2DB8
f114376   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Fermanagh Co.   KM848
f174091   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh   PECTR
f156368   Irvine   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh   GK6UY
f54774   Irving   zzL21predicted   Scotland   
f226426   Irving   zzL21predicted   Scotland, Borders, Roxburghshire, Cleughheids   H436A
f87191   Irving   zzL21predicted   Scotland, Dumfries and Galloway, Dumfries   D3MSG
f19864   Irving   zzL21predicted   Scotland, Borders, Dumfries   GRPBN
f171854   Irving   zzL21predicted   England, North West, Cumbria,  Kirklinton   5QJD8
f45775   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim   CPA4E
f62206   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Scotland   E5S7S
f109659   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Monaghan, Ballybay, Acres   FU26Q
f132883   Irwin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   HFRHJ
f187553   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Leitrim, Manorhamilton, Clooncare Parish   48WME
f85111   Irwin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   QCFSX
f134853   Irwin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   GE9PK
f54412   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland   5BY5F
f180012   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim   BGHFA
f174805   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Scotland   A37D2
f137312   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone   5WHP5
f135172   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Scotland   8YFJH
f208960   Irwin   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   X3865
f22971   Irwin   zzL21predicted   Ireland   
f85002   Johnson   zzL21predicted   England   35VTR
f5863   Johnston   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin   
f52440   Parks   zzL21predicted   Ireland   AKGV3
f112094   Urwin   zzL21predicted   England, North East, Co. Durham, Gilesgate   JE5D5
f75137   Vowles   zzL21predicted   Scotland   257JY
f34761   Watson   zzL21predicted   England   TV72P
f131683   Wilson   zzL21predicted   zzzUnkOrigin


It's interesting how this kind of stuff goes, but the Irwin/Armstrong/Elliott names are supposed to be Border Reivers era/geography originated surnames.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 08:24:49 PM »

I see that L555 is on ISOGG's R tree, but from what I can tell from the R-L21 Plus Project, it has been found in just one family: the Erwin/Irwin/Irvine family.

Is that not the case? Has it been found outside that family?

Thanks in advance!

In the Ireland project we have:
3874 -- Hamblen

He's in the R-L21 Plus project, too, and I saw his L555+ before posting above. Hamblen identifies his mdka as an Erwin who was adopted and changed his name (if I understand his entry correctly).
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 08:27:25 PM »

. . .

Robert Casey has done a lot of work with the Irvin's on L555. We've collected a pretty good set of 67 STR ht's that appear to fit nicely into a single DF13+ cluster that has been labeled 555-2410-A. The primary off-modal signature is H4=10 385b>=15 YCAII=19,24 570<=16.

I think Robert thinks the GD's of known L555+ people are wide enough that all, or close to all, of the below will be L555+ . . .


Are they making any effort to test any of the non-Irwins for L555?
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 08:04:37 AM »

I contacted Armstrong, Ysearch Z8UP5, and Elliott, Ysearch DNRYW, to get them to join the R-L21 Plus Project and get tested for L555.

We'll see if they respond. Should be interesting if they do.
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 10:23:21 AM »

The admin of the Clan Irwin Project has recently advised again that their participants not order any further tests without consulting him.  That has always been their policy. 

Their own spreadsheet at clanirwin.org and the FTDNA Irwin Project page lists most of the different names shown and regards them as members of the Irwin Border group.   On their SNP result Paper No. 5 my #63879--Brady--is included as the closest tested negative result for L555 with a 5/9 FP match.  Their matches start at 6/9. 

For 10 years, since early Oxford Ancestry days, I had thought my Brady group was a middle distance match to the Irwins, with a TMCRA prior to their own group's estimated TMCRA of 900 years.  My group doesn't really match local Cavan/Breifne lines except for being Z253.  I matched Irwin's major off modal results except at YCAIIb, they are 24 and I am 23, as is nearly all of Z253.  The two who have 24 are one from Brittany and an Irish person with a Norman last name, Frain/Freyne.  Now Irwin has their own SNP and I have my own, L1066.   But my semargl.me matches are ~25% Irwin etal despite the distance. 
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2012, 10:56:36 AM »

The admin of the Clan Irwin Project has recently advised again that their participants not order any further tests without consulting him.  That has always been their policy
. . .  

Okay.

This is not something I am very motivated to delve into and research, but I had thought of creating an L555 category at the R-L21 Plus Project. I am not going to do that, however, for an SNP thus far restricted to a single family. That's why I thought about trying to get a couple of folks with different surnames to test for L555.

But, hey, they're all pretty closely matched at 67 markers, or seem to be without my having to check things too meticulously, so it seems like a private or at least quasi-private SNP to me.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 10:58:37 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2012, 12:08:20 PM »

The admin of the Clan Irwin Project has recently advised again that their participants not order any further tests without consulting him.  That has always been their policy.  ...

If you want to start the conversation by send the Irwin admin an email, copying me, I'll ask them to consider L555 testing for the right project members.  An email from the project administrator can be valuable so we if can get him/her to promote the concept that would be excellent.
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2012, 07:17:13 PM »

I'm wondering if there is any point to it, Mike. I am not going to run all of those people in Ysearch, but from what little I did do, it looks like a lot of them are very closely matched at 67 markers, regardless of surname.

Are there any people among those likely to be L555+ who are far enough out from the pack to make this look like anything more than a family (i.e., private) SNP?
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2012, 07:48:56 PM »

I'm wondering if there is any point to it, Mike. I am not going to run all of those people in Ysearch, but from what little I did do, it looks like a lot of them are very closely matched at 67 markers, regardless of surname.

Are there any people among those likely to be L555+ who are far enough out from the pack to make this look like anything more than a family (i.e., private) SNP?
I looked through my old e-mail and found where Vince added L555 to the ISOGG tree. They met the diversity requirement, but just barely, A single 12/67 mismatch, all the rest were 10/67 or better.

EDIT (added below):
ymap shows 15 derived instances of L555; I can see 14 in the Irwin project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/irwin/default.aspx?section=ysnp

The Irwin admin seems pretty supportive of SNP testing, just wants to make sure testing is done where needed, versus yet another Irwin testing L555+.
http://dnastudy.clanirwin.org/additional-analyses/towards-improvement-in-ydna-surname-project-administration

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2012, 07:53:15 PM »

I'm wondering if there is any point to it, Mike. I am not going to run all of those people in Ysearch, but from what little I did do, it looks like a lot of them are very closely matched at 67 markers, regardless of surname.

Are there any people among those likely to be L555+ who are far enough out from the pack to make this look like anything more than a family (i.e., private) SNP?
I looked through my old e-mail and found where Vince added L555 to the ISOGG tree. They met the diversity requirement, but just barely, A single 12/67 mismatch, all the rest were 10/67 or better.

--david

Thanks, David.

I'll wait until we pick up someone with a surname other than Irwin who is L555+ before adding a category for it.
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