An ancient haplogroup E from Italy

[Maliclavelli]

Ungrouped in the Italy FTDNA Project there is
N92574 Marcucci Italy E1b1b1
13 24 14 10 18-19 11 12 10 13 11 29 15 6-10 11 11 25 14 20 31 16-16-16-17

Interesting is his DYS459=6-10, not documented elsewhere. The values of DYS459 in hg E are above all 9-9, rarely 9-10 and more 8-9 and 7-9, and someone should think that 6-10 could be done to a multistep mutation from 9-10. But I found on SMGF and put on ySearch the Italian Mirabelli (7CPTR), who has DYS459=6-9 and they are closely related. Then we should think to many mutations in DYS459a: mutation rate 0.000523 and Marcucci also in DYS459b: mutation rate 0.001525.

The values of Mirabelli, which isn’t possible to charge on ySearch, are:

13 24 14 10 18-18.2 11 13 11 13 11 29 15 6-9 11 11 25 14 20 31 15.3-16-16-17 11 13 19-22 15 11 10 13 12 12 12 12 20 13 17 11 28 18

[Maliclavelli]

There are also Marcelli (ySearch CAJZT):
13 24 14 10 17.2-20 11 12 11 13 11 30 15 6-9 11 11 26 14 20 31 15.3-16-16-17 11 13 19-22 15 11 10 13 12 12 12 12 20 13 17 11 28 18

and Gudgel (ySearch 5HXNP):
13 24 14 10 17.2-20 11 13 11 13 11 30 15 6-9 11 11 25 14 20 31 14.3-15-17-18 10 12 19-22 15 12 10 12 13 12 12 12 20 13 16 11 29 18

and the discourse becomes European.

[MM123456789]

What do you think this means?

[Maliclavelli]

What do you think this means?

I am sorry for not having been able to answer your question before. It seems to me that these haplotypes are a cluster, whichever is the origin of DYS459a (a multistep mutation from 9 or many mutations by one step):

N92574 Marcucci Italy E1b1b1
13 24 14 10 18-19 11 12 10 13 11 29 15 6-10 11 11 25 14 20 31 16-16-16-17
Mirabelli
13 24 14 10 18-18.2 11 13 11 13 11 29 15 6-9 11 11 25 14 20 31 15.3-16-16-17 11 13 19-22 15 11 10 13 12 12 12 12 20 13 17 11 28 18
Marcelli (ySearch CAJZT)
13 24 14 10 17.2-20 11 12 11 13 11 30 15 6-9 11 11 26 14 20 31 15.3-16-16-17 11 13 19-22 15 11 10 13 12 12 12 12 20 13 17 11 28 18
and Gudgel (ySearch 5HXNP)
13 24 14 10 17.2-20 11 13 11 13 11 30 15 6-9 11 11 25 14 20 31 14.3-15-17-18 10 12 19-22 15 12 10 12 13 12 12 12 20 13 16 11 29 18

It is clear that this cluster has its centre in Italy. Unfortunately FTDNA doesn’t test the fractionate values, but Marcucci is probably DYS385=18.2-19 and DYS464=16-16-16.3-17. This demonstrates that this cluster is pretty old. Marcucci has been SNP tested for M35.1. This is the tree of hg. E:

•   •    •   •    E1b1b   M215/Page40
•   •    •   •    •    E1b1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1   L336, M35.1, M243
•   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a   V68
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1   L18, M78
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a1a   V12
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1a1   M224
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1a2   V32
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a1b   L142.1, L542, V13, V36,
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b1   V27
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b2   P65_1, P65_2, P65_3
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b3   L17
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b4   DYS643-null/L143
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b5   M35.2
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b6   L241
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b7   L250, L251, L252
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1b8   L540
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a1c   V22
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1c*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1c1   M148
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1a1c2   V19
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a1d   V65
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1a1e   M521
•   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b   Z827
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1b1   L19/V257, L335, M310
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b1a   M81
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1b1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1b1a1   M107
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    E1b1b1b1a2   M183/Page33
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b1a2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b1a2a    M165
•   •    •   •    •   •   •    E1b1b1b2   Z830
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    E1b1b1b2a   M123
   
It would be interesting to see which is the final SNP of Marcucci. You ask if I think whether this haplotype is in Italy from many thousands of years. I think just this. And it would be interesting to see if it is a V68, the ancestor of all these subclades and found by Cruciani in Sardinia. ISOGG says about hg. E1b1b that it “probably evolved either in Northeast Africa or the Near East and then expanded to the west, both north and south of the Mediterranean Sea. E1b1b1 clusters are seen today in Western Europe, Southeast Europe, the Near East, Northeast Africa and Northwest Africa”. Actually we don’t know where it was born. Marcucci could do a SNP test or better the Geno 2 if tests all these SNPs under M35.1. As this cluster is probably born in Italy, we could get also some information as how it migrated to the Isles (see Gudgel) and about the times of this migration and if it happened with other more diffused haplogroups.

[Maliclavelli]

"but Marcucci is probably DYS385=18.2-19 and DYS464=16-16-16.3-17"

Of course it is more likely that Marcucci's values are DYS385=18-18.2 and DYS464=15.3-16-16-17, i.e that the fractionated value is rounded off to the next integer.

[MM123456789]

I'm new to all of this, but what you're saying makes sense.  According to a haplogroup predictor, Marcucci is with 100% confidence E1b1b1a1c (E-V22).  To me, that implies some sort of ancient maritime migration from the Levant/Nile Delta, but of course nearly anything's possible.