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Author Topic: About the origin of hg. R again  (Read 7455 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2012, 09:33:46 PM »

The proof may be done on SMGF. Ask how many people are in the database with
DYS393=12
DYS391=10
DYS464= 15 15 16 16
H4 =10
and add 3 middle mutating markers:
DYS439=12
DYS458=18
DYS449=29.

How many? 0.

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
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« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2012, 09:36:50 PM »

I believe most of the Murphy 393-12, 464=15 15 16 16 have 391=11

which made me wonder how concrete 391 is..when we think 10 or 11 as a pillar result?

"Haplotype C"
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/default.aspx?section=yresults
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2012, 09:46:00 PM »

But DYS391 is a marker I have always said that mutates around the modal: from 11 to 10 and from 10 to 11, many times. For this is a markers whose mutations are hidden. But with whom you find the same value it demonstrates I think a close relatedness, united with all the other values.

But you could do a proof: I think that a Relative Finder (23andMe)  between you and this Murphy would demonstate a relatedness.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2012, 09:49:18 PM »

And of course an upgrade to 111 could take away any doubt.
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Maliclavelli


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OConnor
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« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2012, 09:55:49 PM »

I am waiting my 111 results due in September :)

Thank-you so much for your opinion. I think the 23andme thing is a very good option. I should invest in that venture.

I also wondered if perhaps "Walk the Y"?

Thanks again.

(Edit:) I should get this Murphy to 111 str's as well)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 10:01:02 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2012, 10:24:54 PM »

how uncommon is 393=12 in western European R1b subclades ?
Not very.  About 5-6% of western European R1b (e.g. R-U106 and R-P312) has DYS393=12.

But you should ask:
1)   how many R-L21 are DYS393= 12?
2)    “                  “          DYS391= 10?
3)     “                  “         DYS464= 15 15 16 16?
4)     “                   “        H4= 10?
5)     “                 “          from DYS607 to CDYb 15 18 17 38 38?

The percentage from 5/6% would fall to “a few people of the same descent”.
If you want to know the frequency of each of these or any combination of these within L21 you can just download this spreadsheet and use the Excel custom autofiltering function on the column headings. The totals are at the bottom per each allele.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip
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acekon
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« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2012, 11:01:38 AM »


 When you put R-M269  and other branches of R,[combination of letters and snp's] on your map you can translate that into a common 37 STR signature carried by most?
Yes, I suppose you could compute a modal haplotype for the extant members of each clade on the map.  But I don't think it would serve any relevant purpose to do so.


Many poster's here love str's and think they trump snp,s, I thought you might have been one of them. So was interested that everyone converses in the same genetic language, to simplify the matter.

Could you provide a little more detail on your map[rough back of envelope type of data]  the top of your head . Terminal snp/str-393/approximate age, of node and or split.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

Also with respect to placement of R1a compared to R1b1. Is the str analysis and conclusion logical, by Gunjan Sharma et al. ?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0032546

 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:28:01 AM by acekon » Logged

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vineviz
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« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2012, 11:48:09 AM »

Many poster's here love str's and think they trump snp,s, I thought you might have been one of them. So was interested that everyone converses in the same genetic language, to simplify the matter.

I like STRs and SNPs both: I'm happy to use whatever tool is appropriate for the job at hand.

Could you provide a little more detail on your map[rough back of envelope type of data]  the top of your head . Terminal snp/str-393/approximate age, of node and or split.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

The map is an illustration of the probable expansion path of R and R1b lineages.  I'd say the two primary lines of evidence in placing the clades on the map were STR variance and distribution of subclades.

For instance, I observed that R-V88 tends to appear in a region south of the region in which R-L389 appears.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1Distribution.png

That doesn't necessarily mean that R-V88 orginated in Arabia, but does suggest that R-V88 was in a population that expanded in that direction.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:51:04 AM by vineviz » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2012, 11:53:36 AM »

Many poster's here love str's and think they trump snp,s, I thought you might have been one of them. So was interested that everyone converses in the same genetic language, to simplify the matter.

I like STRs and SNPs both: I'm happy to use whatever tool is appropriate for the job at hand.

Could you provide a little more detail on your map[rough back of envelope type of data]  the top of your head . Terminal snp/str-393/approximate age, of node and or split.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

The map is an illustration of the probable expansion path of R and R1b lineages.  I'd say the two primary lines of evidence in placing the clades on the map were STR variance and distribution of subclades.

For instance, I observed that R-V88 tends to appear in a region south of the region in which R-L389 appears.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1Distribution.png

That doesn't necessarily mean that R-V88 orginated in Arabia, but does suggest that R-V88 was in a population that expanded in that direction.

Website is not to strong, blank map?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:55:06 AM by acekon » Logged

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vineviz
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« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2012, 12:15:05 PM »

The map is in .PNG format.  Perhaps the problem is your browser?  The map is visible to me in Firefox and Safari.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1Distribution.png

VV
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acekon
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« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2012, 12:29:18 PM »

^^ Working now.

 Lets start from R and it's placement on the map. Snp variance or Str variance?
[UTY2, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280, P285, S4, S9]
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2012, 09:09:01 AM »

Does anyone have any thoughts on Dienekes calculation now that he realised they need halved?  They seem a little young to me.  For instance that appears to place U106 at only 3500 years old which is 500-1000 years younger than some other calculations I recall based on STR interclades.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2012, 09:24:43 AM »

Does anyone have any thoughts on Dienekes calculation now that he realised they need halved?  They seem a little young to me.  For instance that appears to place U106 at only 3500 years old which is 500-1000 years younger than some other calculations I recall based on STR interclades.

Argiedude:
“Looking at the original experiment [2] where I did divide with 2 twice, it seems that there are many more variant sites per pair of chromosomes; this is why the "Root" estimates for the two experiments end up similar”.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2012, 09:27:12 AM »

In Pisan dialect we say:

Poggi e bue fan pari.
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Maliclavelli


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2012, 01:40:39 AM »

Does anyone have any thoughts on Dienekes calculation now that he realised they need halved?  They seem a little young to me.  For instance that appears to place U106 at only 3500 years old which is 500-1000 years younger than some other calculations I recall based on STR interclades.

I'm not taking any firm positions on these dates, but I'll tell you what's been calculated. Using Nordtvedt's tool with 67 markers I had the interclade age for P312 & U106 at 4500 ybp so that should be a maximum (not accounting for error ranges.) The tool calculated U106's coalescence age as 3400 ybp.

Perhaps, Mark Jost will chime in, but he just ran some TMRCAs with 111 markers and the lastest version of Nordtvedt's tool and I think his ages were slightly younger than what I just displayed. One of the other bloggers complained about it being too young, but all of this  seems to line up so...
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