About the origin of hg. R again

[alan trowel hands.]

lol I have been wondering if Dienekes is J2 myself.

The paper is interesting though.  Dienekes is now pointing to NW Iran for M269* and L23*.  That is slowly creeping towards a near-steppes  IE-compatible angle even if he is still chasing the J angle.

[Maliclavelli]

Dienekes is now pointing to NW Iran for M269* and L23*.

This is the last flaw of Dienekes: the 5 R-M269* haplotypes from Iran reported in the paper are practically the same, with only 1 mutation in a fast mutating marker, then 5 are only 1 and DYS390=26 is well attested in Italy (with many other values).
On the other hand it is well known that Dienekes understands a little of Y-STRs.

[Maliclavelli]

Yes, one could ask how I do know these haplotypes, seen that the paper doesn’t report them, but I was referring to the 5 haplotypes reported by the paper of Herrera on Armenians, but, seen that Iranian R-M269 and R-M23 are above all from Armenia, I bet that they aren’t so different.

[acekon]

"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

[Maliclavelli]

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

You know my answer: because hg. R was a Northern Eurasian haplogroup, and I/J a Southern Eurasian one.
But your map, with R-M173 ( i.e. R1*) diffused in North America and South East Asia, raises again the problem of the Amerindian R, which isn't easily overcome by saying that they are of European origin, problem arisen by the Brasilian Geneticist Catira Bortolini and others.
Evidently we are in front of an ancient dispersion. My theory of the Italian Refugium regards only the developments of hg. R from R1b1* (YCAII=18-23 or 18-22) and subclades.
I have said many times that also the !kung (Bushmen) get hg. R*.

[acekon]

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

You know my answer: because hg. R was a Northern Eurasian haplogroup, and I/J a Southern Eurasian one.
But your map, with R-M173 ( i.e. R1*) diffused in North America and South East Asia, raises again the problem of the Amerindian R, which isn't easily overcome by saying that they are of European origin, problem arisen by the Brasilian Geneticist Catira Bortolini and others.
Evidently we are in front of an ancient dispersion. My theory of the Italian Refugium regards only the developments of hg. R from R1b1* (YCAII=18-23 or 18-22) and subclades.
I have said many times that also the !kung (Bushmen) get hg. R*.

What age do you put on Italian R1b and it's spread?

[Richard Rocca]

"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

[Maliclavelli]

What age do you put on Italian R1b and it's spread?

I have said and written many times in the past that the best method to demonstrate something isn’t that of following the huge haplogroups and haplotypes but the rarest ones (and of course I wasn’t the unique to say this).
Perhaps it would be interesting if you all follow my thread here about the dispersion of mtDNA K1a1b1e. It is rare. Till a few weeks ago we were only 3 to have the mutation 9932A. Now it is clear that beyond Italy this haplogroup is present in the Isles with its own mutations: 477C, perhaps 16228C etc.
The last reassessment of Behar et al. (but you know that I have criticized him many times) gives to K1a1b1e an ancientness of about 7000 years. With the new mutations that we are discovering it could be also more. Then we are at my theory of the Italian Refugium after the Younger Dryas, but the expansion to Iberia we know happened 7500 years ago. We shall see if K1a1b1e arrived to the Isles via Iberia or to Central Europe. We are waiting for next results, someone of them are processing.

[alan trowel hands.]

"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

Yes its gibberish.  You could easily explain R1b and R1a's distributions in a steppes model thus:

1. R1b was located among the pre-Yamanya groups at the west end of the steppes, probably around the north shore of the Black Sea, closer to (and mixed in with) intrusive farmig groups.

2. R1a was located to the east of the Black Sea, perhaps among ealry Yamnaya groups.

3. As a consequence of this the R1a groups tended to look for and follow routes along true steppe-like lands (Europe as far east as Hungary/Poland) while R1b perhaps looked to lands suitable for a less steppe nomadic orientated pastoralism.  Of course it is not as simple or as good a fit as that today and it will be messed up by later movements but there is a distinct whiff of that.

It is tempting to see R1b as taking a dual trajectory that went from a starting point on the north shore of the Black sea and split into two L23* groups, one of which headed into south-central Europe and another which headed down to eastern edge of the Black Sea.  R1a on the other hand may have started further east nearer the Urals and have moved in three directions - east, down the west side of the Caspain and towards Europe.  it is possible if R1b people had become a little more farming adapted that they may have exited the steppes slightly  before R1a, who also seem to have had a more easterly starting point.  

EDIT-It is known that archaeologically the westernmost steppe groups accepted farming far more readily and earlier than the eastern ones in the time before the C-Trypole culture.  So there may have been groups lurking even prior to the Yamnaya period who were more ready to spread into non-steppe areas than those further east.  I think there is potenitally something in this in terms of the R1a and R1b distribution.  It is also possible that R1b people moved out of the steppe as a result of the Yamnaya groups and I dont mean by that that they were C-Tryp peoples who I think could not have been R1b on the whole or else the structure of R1b branching would have been very different.

[alan trowel hands.]

"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

...and another thing, physical barriers make asymmetry of DNA spread almost certain.  Its not like the area is flat, obstacle free with a homogenious environment.   The environment around the eastern-Europe/SW Asia area features, steppe, huge mountain areas, deserts, giant lakes etc.  You are right it is absurd.  Like I say, I respect Dienekes but he does look like he is fixated on one model even when the evidence is against it.  He is slowly shifting his model further north and into a later period which to me reads a bit like he is edging towards something in between a steppe and Neolithic model.  Only problem with it is there is no 'out of Iran' movement sweeping Europe in the copper age but there are steppe movements.  At the moment I would tend to interpret the early M269/L23* block in the uplands between the steppes and Mesopotamia as refuges of groups displaced from somewhere to the north.  These groups do have a tendency to be higher in groups with known linguistic origins to the north.  

[rms2]

"One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes  in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains."

Dienekes said.
"R1b is definitely "out" as a PIE candidate due to its clear asymmetrical geographical distribution; it can only be associated with some secondary Indo-Europeanized groups."

In Europe M429[I/J] is flanked by R first, to the west by M269[R1B] and to the east by M420[R1A]. In Arabia Felix - Somalia, it totally dominated M269/M420.Why was M429 so successful IJ* in it's southern branch/split but not in it's Northern venture, with such an advantage in age compared to R family, when M429/M269 share the same regional formation?

M429
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/m429.png/

M269
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/rm269.png/

HG-R
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/800pxhaplogrouprydna.png/

Dienekes' comment is as absurd. It's like saying that L21 is not related to Celts because its asymmetrical in the isles even though it is thoroughly dominant there. All  haplogroups have asymmetrical distributions because they are old and involve many population movements. This guy is losing all credibility with this nonsense.

Yeah, he is knowledgeable, but the "J2=Original IE" thing is baffling. It's right out of left field.

[A_Wode]

I see some evidence that the lack of a "West Asian" component in Basque and a (seemingly) late spread of J2a subclades into Europe might be evidence for them being the original Indo-European. Unfortunately, I don't think it's so so linear and straight forward. I doubt we will ever have a definite answer. The reality could also be way out in left field with something we would never anticipate.

EDIT: It seems "elite-dominance" was the last flavour of the month and only used when it suits the individual's pet theory. This month is autosomal DNA, which is slightly better at least.

[rms2]

I'm at the point now where I have pretty much decided to concern myself with my own y haplogroup and my own family tree and to let the "Indo-Europeans" go hang. Might as well chase leprechauns.

Ancient y-dna might tell the tale eventually, if we get enough of it in all the right places.

[Jean M]

I see some evidence that the lack of a "West Asian" component in Basque and a (seemingly) late spread of J2a subclades into Europe might be evidence for them being the original Indo-European.

I now suspect that the Proto-Greek-speakers actually did carry quite a lot of J2a. There are aspects of the Neolithic to Bronze Age transition in Greece that have only just hit me. I haven't been reading Dienekes on the subject. I've been reading archaeologists. I'm amazed.  Large chunks of Greece seem to have been uninhabited at the end of the Neolithic.

Not that this makes J2a "the" PIE Y-DNA haplogroup. As I keep saying, there isn't just one. But a large Bronze Age input from Anatolia is exactly what the archaeology suggests.

[princenuadha]

I see some evidence that the lack of a "West Asian" component in Basque and a (seemingly) late spread of J2a subclades into Europe might be evidence for them being the original Indo-European.

I now suspect that the Proto-Greek-speakers actually did carry quite a lot of J2a. There are aspects of the Neolithic to Bronze Age transition in Greece that have only just hit me. I haven't been reading Dienekes on the subject. I've been reading archaeologists. I'm amazed.  Large chunks of Greece seem to have been uninhabited at the end of the Neolithic.

Not that this makes J2a "the" PIE Y-DNA haplogroup. As I keep saying, there isn't just one. But a large Bronze Age input from Anatolia is exactly what the archaeology suggests.

What makes you think they were IE. I think there were non ie anatolian migrations to Italy after the neolithic that could have brought j2 to the peninsula. Maybe its the same for Greece.

Also, I posted my reply to dienekes summing up my opinion on "West Asian" and the weak argument that I think it is (hopefully it will be approved soon).

[princenuadha]

I'm at the point now where I have pretty much decided to concern myself with my own y haplogroup and my own family tree and to let the "Indo-Europeans" go hang. Might as well chase leprechauns.

Ancient y-dna might tell the tale eventually, if we get enough of it in all the right places.

I think the steppe theory is very interesting for the sake of my own ancestry. So, obviously I would like to see it confirmed. But at the same time, part of me wants to see dienekes (man, he gets so much attention) proved correct. Because I like to follow steppe thoery, I've run into a whole bunch of racial supremists that think the origin of IE would support said philosophy. I think its ridiculus to say on group of people are better because they were close to the springboard for IE.

At least a middle eastern origin would make them realize that things arent that simple.

Then again, I hope we wouldn't have to hear how everything ultimately came from the middle east if dienekes were proven right : )

[alan trowel hands.]

I only noticed there that despite Dienekes commentary the paper actually says

The phylogeography of the main haplogroups allowed identifying post-glacial and Neolithic expansions toward western Eurasia but also recent movements towards the Iranian region from western Eurasia (R1b-L23), Central Asia (Q-M25), Asia Minor (J2a-M92) and southern Mesopotamia

I have not read the full paper so I dont know what he means by western Eurasia.  However it says L23 was a movement TOWARDS Iran. 

[Maliclavelli]

Alan Trowel Hands says: “so I don’t know what he means by western Eurasia”.

I noticed that too, and I thought that they did mean “Europe”, because if they had thought to Anatolia they would have said “Anatolia, Asia Minor, Middle East…”, but this demonstrates once more that nobody dares to say “Europe”. This for the old supremacy (this is the true “supremacy”) of Cavalli Sforza, Barbujani etc., those whom I have always called “Cavallo Sforzesco”, “Farfugliani” etc. and let you mean which is the spirit in my language towards these illustrious Italians.
I have said that I suppose that these authors are preparing a paper about Sardinia and Italy, seen that they haven’t published the data of Sardina, but from these reticence perhaps I shouldn’t expect anything good.

[acekon]

Alan Trowel Hands says: “so I don’t know what he means by western Eurasia”.

I noticed that too, and I thought that they did mean “Europe”, because if they had thought to Anatolia they would have said “Anatolia, Asia Minor, Middle East…”, but this demonstrates once more that nobody dares to say “Europe”. This for the old supremacy (this is the true “supremacy”) of Cavalli Sforza, Barbujani etc., those whom I have always called “Cavallo Sforzesco”, “Farfugliani” etc. and let you mean which is the spirit in my language towards these illustrious Italians.
I have said that I suppose that these authors are preparing a paper about Sardinia and Italy, seen that they haven’t published the data of Sardina, but from these reticence perhaps I shouldn’t expect anything good.

Anything European, is becomming taboo!

The conclusion reached in R1b; pocket in North West,dropping in frequency going East and South from Lorestan.

"As for the distribution of haplogroup R1b-L23 (xM412), it is frequent in the north-western area of the country, whereas its incidence rapidly declines southwards from Lorestan. Differently, higher levels of heterogeneity are revealed in entrance or transit areas such as, for example, those observed in the populations living around the Caspian Sea, a situation that could be ascribed to population movements from and to Europe."


Light Green, in pie chart

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/r1binwestasia.png/

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Contrast with J2, found in Southern Europe from Levant/Mesopotamia origin.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/j2au.png/

[Maliclavelli]

Anything European, is becomming taboo!

Many thanks, Acekon. Then I hope that they write the paper I expect and they abolish the other taboo: Italy!

[Maliclavelli]

Also about the distribution of J2 I’d say that more than a difference between East and West (even though the origin near the Caucasus is the more likable) I see a difference based on altitude, even in Italy (Matese) and Greece. It would seem that more than a difference of the expansion between J2 and J1 based on agriculturalists/shepherds (see Roy King et al.) it is a difference between shepherds: altitude against low lands. Of course we could think also to a refugee of J2 in altitude, but we should think to an invasion happened more recently and in the whole region, from Europe to Caucasus. By whom?

[acekon]

Also about the distribution of J2 I’d say that more than a difference between East and West (even though the origin near the Caucasus is the more likable) I see a difference based on altitude, even in Italy (Matese) and Greece. It would seem that more than a difference of the expansion between J2 and J1 based on agriculturalists/shepherds (see Roy King et al.) it is a difference between shepherds: altitude against low lands. Of course we could think also to a refugee of J2 in altitude, but we should think to an invasion happened more recently and in the whole region, from Europe to Caucasus. By whom?

Maybe J2= Altitude sickness, very dizzy. Dienekes said...

"Lol, how do they "correlate"? J2 is the modal haplogroup in a bunch of IE groups, R1b in another bunch, and R1a in yet another bunch."

"There are, however, strong hints: J2 expanded late, it seems, its J2a subclade is associated with Hindu upper castes, its center of weight is in the IE homeland, it largely overlaps with the area of maximum West_Asian, and it also reaches all major branches of IE, even in small frequencies."


 J2 m-429 is connected with Semitic language,Proto-Circassion language, Hindu upper castes, and the spread into all major branches of IE.  

Areas with m429 J2,Levant, are "Semitic" based languages..

 Iraq       N154    43.6 %   Al-Zahery et al. (20110)
Syria    Syria    N554    20.8%    El-Sibai et al. (2009)
Saudi Arabia       N157    15.9%    Abu-Amero et al. (2009)

Areas with m429 J2 are not classified as "Indo-Iranian," language

Caucasus    Ingush    N143    88.8%    Balanovsky et al. (2011)
Caucasus    Chechen    N330    57%    Balanovsky et al. (2011)

It is interesting that in the study,areas with elevated m269-L23 Gilaki, Lurish,Armenian,[Talysh/Osset separate studies]. Are classified as Indo-Iranian language branches, not Arabic or Proto-Circassion-m429 J2.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

[Jean M]

What makes you think they were IE. I think there were non ie anatolian migrations to Italy after the neolithic that could have brought j2 to the peninsula. Maybe its the same for Greece.

Yes this the trouble. We have waves of people from Anatolia coming into Crete and the Cyclades and on into the Greek mainland in a very complex series.  Some spoke a language we can't read which we label Minoan. Some were IE speakers from Anatolia - the Carians. The people who later spoke Greek may have entered by land or sea or both and zig-zagged back and forth between Greece and Anatolia like yo-yos. People from Troy were metal-working in Greece at one point. It's enough to have me throwing up my hands in despair. But let's say it's not too surprising that the Greeks today have a genetic input from West Asia!  

[Jean M]

However it says L23 was a movement TOWARDS Iran. 

That makes total sense. A lot of the L23 is carried by Armenians and Assyrians in Iran. The L23 would have arrived in Armenia from the Balkans with the Armenians. Some of the L23 may well have entered the Caucasus with Cimmerians. Essentially it is looking as though R1 split into R1b and R1a in or near Iran, because all the basal haplogroups are present. But L23 appeared either en route through Anatolia or in the Balkan/Lower Danube area.

See the excellent analysis by DMXX at Interpreting New Iranian Y-Chromosomal Data (Grugni et al.)

[Jarman]

Also about the distribution of J2 I’d say that more than a difference between East and West (even though the origin near the Caucasus is the more likable) I see a difference based on altitude, even in Italy (Matese) and Greece. It would seem that more than a difference of the expansion between J2 and J1 based on agriculturalists/shepherds (see Roy King et al.) it is a difference between shepherds: altitude against low lands. Of course we could think also to a refugee of J2 in altitude, but we should think to an invasion happened more recently and in the whole region, from Europe to Caucasus. By whom?

A few years ago before discovery of R-L23 researchers referred to another classification called ht35.  It was found that within R1b the DYS393=12 was a very good proxy for this haplogroup and it still is for R-L23*.  To confirm Dieneke's idea that ht35 (now R-L23*) had a strong correlation to J2 in Europe, Vincent Vizzaccaro created maps for J2 and for DYS393=12.  These were on the unfortunately lost DNA-Forums; I don't know where his J2 map could be found but here is the DYS393=12 map: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dsGYkxd7z_E/Rb0OyyLLk5I/AAAAAAAAAB4/x0GGzLHjt6M/s1600-h/dys393%3D12_low.png  it is now part of his Italy DNA Project available at: http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/01/r1b-in-italy.html

The point I'm trying to address here is that there does appear to be a correlation between J2 and R-L23* in southeast Europe and southern Italy.  Since I am totally lacking in J2 knowledge, I would be interested in ideas of when J2 entered these areas to get an idea of when this wave of R-L23* possibly entered these same areas.