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Author Topic: About the origin of hg. R again  (Read 10611 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: July 19, 2012, 08:12:18 AM »

About the origin of many Y-haplogroups a recent paper promises interesting contributions: "Huge study on Y-chromosome variation in Iran" (Grugni et al. 2012).
Dienekes is singing about hg R in Iran: “This is especially true for haplogroup R where pretty much every paragroup and derived group is present, excepting those likely to have originated recently elsewhere”.
He has to read the paper, and I too, but form the abstract:
“The phylogeography of the main haplogroups allowed identifying post-glacial and Neolithic expansions toward western Eurasia but also recent movements towards the Iranian region from western Eurasia (R1b-L23) […]”.

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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 08:34:47 AM »

I make you know that in the Table S1, where are the frequencies of the haplogroups of the 44 populations included in the PCA, only Italy/Sardinia data are unpublished. Why? I think that these scholars are going to publish a paper on Sardinia/Italy, and I think that we’ll look at finally where is the true origin of some haplogroups, including R1b but also R1a, as I think having demonstrated in these years.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 08:41:18 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2012, 08:41:53 AM »

There is a lot in this study to digest. Just skimming over it, I spotted some really intriguing stuff.

Quote
Frequency and variance distributions of the main haplogroups together with the network analyses and age estimates were suggestive of pre-agricultural expansions from the Iranian plateau toward Europe via Caucasus/Turkey (J2-M410*, J2-PAGE55*, J2-M530, and R1b-M269*) as well as more recent movements into the Iranian region from Asia Minor/Caucasus (J1-M267*, J2-M92), Central Asia (Q-M25), southern Mesopotamia (J1-Page08) and from West Eurasia (R1b-L23 and probably part of R1a-M198*).

Quote
As for the distribution of haplogroup R1b-L23 (xM412), it is frequent in the north-western area of the country, whereas its incidence rapidly declines southwards from Lorestan. Differently, higher levels of heterogeneity are revealed in entrance or transit areas such as, for example, those observed in the populations living around the Caspian Sea, a situation that could be ascribed to population movements from and to Europe.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 10:21:44 AM »

Yes, I noted this statement too: “Frequency and variance distributions of the main haplogroups together with the network analyses and age estimates were suggestive of pre-agricultural expansions from the Iranian plateau toward Europe via Caucasus/Turkey (J2-M410*, J2-PAGE55*, J2-M530, and R1b-M269*) […]” and seemed to me a contradiction that also R-M269* were put amongst this haplogroups, given that the R-M269* are only 5, there aren’t any R-M18, the Sardinian one descendant of R-V88+, and without an analysis of the ancestor R1b1* we don’t understand from whom it is born. As I have said many times, the R1b1* present in Middle East have YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 and cannot be the ancestors of R-M269*, which presupposes an R1b1* with 18-23 or 18-22, both present only in Italy.
It is confirmed that no R-M434 and R-M458 have been found, and besides, no G-L497, the ancestor of the most part of the European G-s.
If you have read the paper, Iran is mixed more than the United States, and you have said in another thread that mixed peoples have high variance and presence of haplogroups from all over the world and don’t say anything about the origin, and this is what I think too.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 10:31:50 AM »

The presence of 3 R-M412/L51, born without any doubt in Italy (or Italy/France as RRocca says), demonstrates that a gene flow from Western Europe has certainly happened.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 10:33:32 AM »

And about R1a, once more no R-M420! Read a thread of mine about it: see Haplogroup R1a...
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 11:10:18 AM »

About the origin of many Y-haplogroups a recent paper promises interesting contributions: "Huge study on Y-chromosome variation in Iran" (Grugni et al. 2012).
Dienekes is singing about hg R in Iran: “This is especially true for haplogroup R where pretty much every paragroup and derived group is present, excepting those likely to have originated recently elsewhere”.
He has to read the paper, and I too, but form the abstract:
“The phylogeography of the main haplogroups allowed identifying post-glacial and Neolithic expansions toward western Eurasia but also recent movements towards the Iranian region from western Eurasia (R1b-L23) […]”.



Along those same lines, Herrera (2011) speculated that Armenian M269(xL23) and L23(xL51) may be remnants of an older European population.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:14:47 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 12:00:54 PM »

Richard, you understand that all this implicates a “theory”. I arrived to my position at least 5 years before Herrera or others and, as I have said many times, all this implicates also a linguistic theory about the origin of the Indo-European languages. You all have discussed a lot recently about this, but frequently without any glottological knowledge. Dienekes, for demonstrating his theory of Gedrosia, quotes the great Gramkrelidze and Ivanov and the glottalic theory, which is interesting, but doesn’t abolish the fact that centum languages (which are spoken above all in Western Europe) precede the satem ones, which are spoken above all in Eastern Europe and Asia. Then the origin of the Indo-European languages is in Western Europe and not in the East.
I have also said that I think that ancient Italy, after the Younger Dryas, had at least 3 linguistic groups: a Caucasian one, spoken probably in Sardinia and after to West (by which survives the Basque: but many words survives in Alpine dialects and elsewhere); the ancestor of the Indo-European and an intermediate group, i.e. the Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun. You can see that to all this corresponds a genetic pool: hg. G2a4 of Ötzi and the I-M26 (Sardinia/Iberia); G-L497, linked to Etruscans and diffused all over Europe; presence of ancient hg. E: see my posts about E-V68 and E-V257, massive presence in Tuscany of hg. J, probably very ancient and not recent; and somewhere there was also hg. R (both R1a-M420 and R1b1* and subclades).
About Armenians and R-L23 (I have said that almost all R-L23 in the East are Armenian) I have said that they, Indo-European speaking linked to Greek languages, came from the Balkans, like before the Hittite and I have asked many times in the past if what is in the Balkans in more recent time weren’t before in Italy.
The expansion of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago I think it is history and not a theory and your map of the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed a proof.
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 01:47:48 PM »

Richard, you understand that all this implicates a “theory”. I arrived to my position at least 5 years before Herrera or others and, as I have said many times, all this implicates also a linguistic theory about the origin of the Indo-European languages. You all have discussed a lot recently about this, but frequently without any glottological knowledge. Dienekes, for demonstrating his theory of Gedrosia, quotes the great Gramkrelidze and Ivanov and the glottalic theory, which is interesting, but doesn’t abolish the fact that centum languages (which are spoken above all in Western Europe) precede the satem ones, which are spoken above all in Eastern Europe and Asia. Then the origin of the Indo-European languages is in Western Europe and not in the East.
I have also said that I think that ancient Italy, after the Younger Dryas, had at least 3 linguistic groups: a Caucasian one, spoken probably in Sardinia and after to West (by which survives the Basque: but many words survives in Alpine dialects and elsewhere); the ancestor of the Indo-European and an intermediate group, i.e. the Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun. You can see that to all this corresponds a genetic pool: hg. G2a4 of Ötzi and the I-M26 (Sardinia/Iberia); G-L497, linked to Etruscans and diffused all over Europe; presence of ancient hg. E: see my posts about E-V68 and E-V257, massive presence in Tuscany of hg. J, probably very ancient and not recent; and somewhere there was also hg. R (both R1a-M420 and R1b1* and subclades).
About Armenians and R-L23 (I have said that almost all R-L23 in the East are Armenian) I have said that they, Indo-European speaking linked to Greek languages, came from the Balkans, like before the Hittite and I have asked many times in the past if what is in the Balkans in more recent time weren’t before in Italy.
The expansion of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago I think it is history and not a theory and your map of the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed a proof.

I would suggest, maliclavelli, that there is another way to approach population movements in the past and that is climate change.  Rhys Carpenter a professor at Bryn Mawr wrote a book some time ago: "Discontinuity in Greek Civilization", whose major thesis is that the shift in the upper atmospheric winds over Europe created a fertile northern africa and a wet, cool southern Europe at the beginning of the Holocene.  He also discusses his theory that the inhabitants of western Europe c. 14K to 9K., BP migrated East.  He presents his thinking as follows: "Between the two impassable fronts, the solid ice to the north and the snow-blocked mountains to the south - a corridor of open country led west from inner Asia to the Atlantic coast....There lived a race of hunters amid the wild animals - reindeer, bison and mammoth--on which they fed.  As the climate changed, it  changed the scrub growth and forest, swamps and marshland replaced the open pastures.... the animals (and after them the hunters) seem to have wandered away, under the climatic shelter of the retreating icecap, through the great European corridor across Russia ....  A recent paper discussed on Dienekes forum: " Population strata in the West Siberian Plain" appears to discuss this event.  Unfortunately they didn't present Y STR data, but the MtDNA were all U's, characteristic of western europe  The descendants of these folks might be the source of R1b in Eurasia?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 02:59:44 PM by ironroad41 » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 02:48:01 PM »

I agree with you. My theory of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas began when it seemed to me that the zone at the feet of the Alps was one of the few fertile region of Europe (but it is possible that I am wrong). Anyway my theory continued based on other “facts”: Genetic, Historic, Linguistic ones etc.
Of course in that time there weren’t the countries of to-day and a nationalistic discourse is out of place, but, as everyone does “nationalistic discourses”, if you permit to me, I defend my country, also because I am convinced that all I am saying is true and I am waiting confident for the aDNA.
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Maliclavelli


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princenuadha
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 04:37:23 PM »

Richard, you understand that all this implicates a “theory”. I arrived to my position at least 5 years before Herrera or others and, as I have said many times, all this implicates also a linguistic theory about the origin of the Indo-European languages. You all have discussed a lot recently about this, but frequently without any glottological knowledge. Dienekes, for demonstrating his theory of Gedrosia, quotes the great Gramkrelidze and Ivanov and the glottalic theory, which is interesting, but doesn’t abolish the fact that centum languages (which are spoken above all in Western Europe) precede the satem ones, which are spoken above all in Eastern Europe and Asia. Then the origin of the Indo-European languages is in Western Europe and not in the East.
I have also said that I think that ancient Italy, after the Younger Dryas, had at least 3 linguistic groups: a Caucasian one, spoken probably in Sardinia and after to West (by which survives the Basque: but many words survives in Alpine dialects and elsewhere); the ancestor of the Indo-European and an intermediate group, i.e. the Etruscan/Rhaetian/Camun. You can see that to all this corresponds a genetic pool: hg. G2a4 of Ötzi and the I-M26 (Sardinia/Iberia); G-L497, linked to Etruscans and diffused all over Europe; presence of ancient hg. E: see my posts about E-V68 and E-V257, massive presence in Tuscany of hg. J, probably very ancient and not recent; and somewhere there was also hg. R (both R1a-M420 and R1b1* and subclades).
About Armenians and R-L23 (I have said that almost all R-L23 in the East are Armenian) I have said that they, Indo-European speaking linked to Greek languages, came from the Balkans, like before the Hittite and I have asked many times in the past if what is in the Balkans in more recent time weren’t before in Italy.
The expansion of the agriculturalists from Italy to Iberia 7500 years ago I think it is history and not a theory and your map of the presence of R-L51 in the places where they landed a proof.

I would suggest, maliclavelli, that there is another way to approach population movements in the past and that is climate change.  Rhys Carpenter a professor at Bryn Mawr wrote a book some time ago: "Discontinuity in Greek Civilization", whose major thesis is that the shift in the upper atmospheric winds over Europe created a fertile northern africa and a wet, cool southern Europe at the beginning of the Holocene.  He also discusses his theory that the inhabitants of western Europe c. 14K to 9K., BP migrated East.  He presents his thinking as follows: "Between the two impassable fronts, the solid ice to the north and the snow-blocked mountains to the south - a corridor of open country led west from inner Asia to the Atlantic coast....There lived a race of hunters amid the wild animals - reindeer, bison and mammoth--on which they fed.  As the climate changed, it  changed the scrub growth and forest, swamps and marshland replaced the open pastures.... the animals (and after them the hunters) seem to have wandered away, under the climatic shelter of the retreating icecap, through the great European corridor across Russia ....  A recent paper discussed on Dienekes forum: " Population strata in the West Siberian Plain" appears to discuss this event.  Unfortunately they didn't present Y STR data, but the MtDNA were all U's, characteristic of western europe  The descendants of these folks might be the source of R1b in Eurasia?

Interesting. There had to be some sort of highway or bottleneck (your guy actually argues both) for the meso Europeans to be so similar. Even the modern English and Western Russians are pretty close considering their geographic distances. I definitely think this point should get more attention in the forums.

Instead of one crucial migration east, I think there was a lot of bi directional movement in pre neolithic Europeans. I forgot the study, but the researchers argued for some mtdna migrating from eastern Europe to western during the mesolithic.
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princenuadha
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 04:45:20 PM »

Quote from: Maliclavelli
My theory of an Italian Refugium during the Younger Dryas began when it seemed to me that the zone at the feet of the Alps was one of the few fertile region of Europe (but it is possible that I am wrong). Anyway my theory continued based on other “facts”:

I believe r1b sprang from Hawaii after the ice age. It is a known fact that Hawaii was relatively warm during the ice age.

This fact is undeniable.

Jk. Why do you think the fact that northern Italy was fertile during the ice age matters? Do you think they were a more populus refugium than F-C or eastern Europe?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 04:47:40 PM by princenuadha » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 07:45:53 PM »

. . .
If you have read the paper, Iran is mixed more than the United States, and you have said in another thread that mixed peoples have high variance and presence of haplogroups from all over the world and don’t say anything about the origin, and this is what I think too.


I haven't had the chance to really read it yet. For the last two, almost three, weeks, my wife has had me installing hardwood floors in our house from morning until night. I'm working on the stairs now, the last of my indentured servitude. I'm exhausted.

Anyway, the more I learn about genetics and various theories about this y haplogroup and that, the more confused I become. I do agree with you that variance may not be all that important. It's pretty obvious that a haplogroup can look far older in a particular place than it really is, simply because it had a lot of different sources contributing to its population in the newer area of settlement.

I confess a lot of this is over my head, but I am unwilling to just blindly trust scientists. Everybody has an axe to grind.


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 09:03:08 PM »

I believe r1b sprang from Hawaii after the ice age. It is a known fact that Hawaii was relatively warm during the ice age.
This fact is undeniable.

The Hawaii idea is very promising. During my researches (not having at my disposal the FTDNA clones, I found samples on SMGF and put them on ySearch) I found an interesting R-L23 in Okinawa Island (Terukina). I thought he was a descendant from some Mexican who was a son of some Spaniard etc, but to think that hg. R was born on the Hawaii and not in Central Asia is worthy of your intelligence.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 09:27:41 PM »

I find this answer on the Dienekes blog from Ezr:
“Great paper.

My own pet theory is that there were two expansions of both R1b and R1a, before and after Indo-Europeanization:
The first “Mediterranean”, non-IE-influenced expansion of R1b gave origin to Vasconcic-Iberian languages and whatever was spoken in Sardinia prior to the Romans (Sardinia has unusual R1b diversity); the second, “Balkanic” IE-influenced expansion of R1b gave origin to Centum IE and Anatolian.
The first non-IE influenced expansion of R1a gave origin to Kassite/Gutian and maybe Burushaski; the Stay-at-home R1a gave origin to North(west/east?) Caucasian and Hurro-Urartian. The IE-influenced expansion gave origin to Satem IE.
The uncertainty here is the position of the Tocharians and the Tarim R1as / R1b 's”.

I permit to publish it here because it is very close to the ideas I have been expressing from many years. Probably Ezr doesn’t know Gioiello Tognoni.
About the presence of R-M73 in the zone of the Tocharians, I suggest to Ezr to read my postings about the origin of R-M73 in Western Europe against all who say “Central Asia”. And of course he should read also my postings about R-M335 and all the rest.

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 09:46:11 PM »

Interesting, what we can glean from this survey, reminds me of elevated numbers found in Talysh.
R1b1a2a*/L23*

Low and or not found

Turkmen-Golestan
Afro/Iranian- Hormozgan
Bandari-Hormozgan
Persian-Khorasan
Arab-Kuzistan
Kurds-Kurdistan
Baluch-Sistan Baluchistan


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Elevated in Western regions

Armenians-West Azerbaijan/Terhan
Lur-Lorestan
Gilak-Gilan

A swath from  the north Karabagh/Syunik into North Western Iran into Lorestan, outlined by the Eastern border of the Assyria, with Armenians in the North to traditional Iranian tribes like Medes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png


« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 10:59:22 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2012, 01:58:01 AM »

Interesting, what we can glean from this survey, reminds me of elevated numbers found in Talysh.
R1b1a2a*/L23*

Low and or not found

Turkmen-Golestan
Afro/Iranian- Hormozgan
Bandari-Hormozgan
Persian-Khorasan
Arab-Kuzistan
Kurds-Kurdistan
Baluch-Sistan Baluchistan


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Elevated in Western regions

Armenians-West Azerbaijan/Terhan
Lur-Lorestan
Gilak-Gilan

A swath from  the north Karabagh/Syunik into North Western Iran into Lorestan, outlined by the Eastern border of the Assyria, with Armenians in the North to traditional Iranian tribes like Medes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png




Ah! I was wondering when Syunik would come up in this thread.

Arch
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acekon
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 11:35:10 AM »

Alleged "Assyrians" from West Azarbaijan N39- 23%
Alleged "Azeri" from West Azarbaijan N63-12%
Alleged "Persian" from Fars N44-11%
Lur from Lorestan N50-23%
Armenians from Tehran N34-23%

We can add the results to,

Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Talysh-indigenous
Gilaki-Indo-Iranian
Lur-Medes?
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 12:45:26 PM »

Interesting, what we can glean from this survey, reminds me of elevated numbers found in Talysh.
R1b1a2a*/L23*

Low and or not found

Turkmen-Golestan
Afro/Iranian- Hormozgan
Bandari-Hormozgan
Persian-Khorasan
Arab-Kuzistan
Kurds-Kurdistan
Baluch-Sistan Baluchistan


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Elevated in Western regions

Armenians-West Azerbaijan/Terhan
Lur-Lorestan
Gilak-Gilan

A swath from  the north Karabagh/Syunik into North Western Iran into Lorestan, outlined by the Eastern border of the Assyria, with Armenians in the North to traditional Iranian tribes like Medes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria.png




Ah! I was wondering when Syunik would come up in this thread.

Arch


Nice map, courtesy Humanist.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Map_Middle_East_R1b.jpg


Perhaps if we isolate the two Armenian[Karabagh/Syunik] provinces the figures should be closer to 30%-40%?

An updated study would be nice.
Weale et al. 2001:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-HG-01-Armenia.pdf

hg1 (PxR1a):
10/44 = 0.2273 Ararat
42/189 = 0.2222 North
56/140 = 0.4000 Syunik
92/215 = 0.4279 Karabakh
18/56 = 0.3214 Iranian
20/90 = 0.2222 West
238/734 = 0.3243 Armenian total



« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 12:47:10 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2012, 01:01:47 PM »

... If you have read the paper, Iran is mixed more than the United States, and you have said in another thread that mixed peoples have high variance and presence of haplogroups from all over the world and don’t say anything about the origin, and this is what I think too.

Your conclusion may be right but I don't think you can use the US as an example similar to Iran. We know on the historical record and via archaeology that many of the genetic types in the US, most in fact, are immigrants in the last several hundred years. The US is a known melting pot.  Iran may be as well, but we don't have same certainty that Iran is made up of recent immigrants.
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2012, 01:02:41 PM »

Many have discussed about the Indo-European haplogroup par excellence: R1a (but it is linked above all with satem languages); J2, supported above all by Dienekes (very likely it is its own Y), etc. From your data it seems that the Indo-European haplogroup of the most ancient times could be R-L23 (which is mine!), and this till Armenians, Hittite, Tocharians (where R-M73 prevailed), and in Western Europe the subclades of R-L23, beginning from R-L51. Of course my hypothesis is that R-L23 and IE languages where then in Italy or nearby.
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 01:08:22 PM »

Your conclusion may be right but I don't think you can use the US as an example similar to Iran. We know on the historical record and via archaeology that many of the genetic types in the US, most in fact, are immigrants in the last several hundred years. The US is a known melting pot.  Iran may be as well, but we don't have same certainty that Iran is made up of recent immigrants.
Iranian melting pot began in the 1st millennium Before Christ with the arrival of IE peoples, continued with the Persian Empire and after with the invasions of Greeks, Arabs, Turks etc.
Of course I think that every people, also mine, is a melting pot. Who is characterized like Tuscans is only because they have had a millennium or more of isolations, but the melting pot continues.
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2012, 01:25:36 PM »

This is a comment of Eurologist on Dienekes’ Anthropology blog:

“My problem with this and with some of Dienekes' thinking is that this is all too terribly late, for Central and Northern Europe. Most specialists agree that Proto-Germanic arose in Northern and Central-to-Eastern Germany and current Western Poland (forget about silly Scandinavian origins that were abolished half a century ago except in the Anglo-American literature - there is a complete lack of any evidence of N --> S cultural impact, but plenty vice versa).
And many agree this plus separation into Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic happened either during or before the northern Urnfield / Tumulus in a region with clear archeological continuity(*) since at least the early bronze age or before. Cynics will say, yeah, that's why y-DNA haplogroup I survived, there. Others think that PIE spread much further much earlier, which then much later enabled groups to establish their IE language locally, much more easily.
That is, Celtic, Germanic, and Italic may have started separation and full establishment on a fertile PIE background, and separated locally as early as 2000 - 1500 BCE - way before any of the often-cited late intrusion from the East.
(*) Unlike popular "constant-latitude-exchange" theories, Europe's climate is very different, between the West and the East. In the West and part of the Western Center, you can go 800-1,000 km N/S without much climatic change. Do the same W/E, and you go from a moderate, Atlantic Climate in the North to one 15-20C colder in the winter, with much longer winters, and more snowfalls. Or go from a mild Adriatic to an unbearable summer inland SE Hungary to a frigid winter NE Romania, a mildish Black Sea, and a truly mild Crimean - all the same latitude.
For the most part, the East is much more continental and much more prone to severe and catastrophic climate changes (droughts and very long, cold winters) - which means inability to cut enough hay and get sufficient food for animals and people, while you need more animal labor to collect it, food for many more days before they can go outside, and collection on more days than remain available. It's a vicious cycle.
So, population density in the East was fluctuating extremely before the advent of mechanized harvesting. But not in the more western parts of Central Europe, or in Western Europe. This makes for a huge difference in population continuity. Some regions indeed were susceptible to huge population turn-around, others were not. We should keep this straight”.

One of my first hypotheses which took me to the Italian Refugium was that the Balkans were (and are) colder than Italy.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 01:26:04 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2012, 02:48:53 PM »

Many have discussed about the Indo-European haplogroup par excellence: R1a (but it is linked above all with satem languages); J2, supported above all by Dienekes (very likely it is its own Y), etc. From your data it seems that the Indo-European haplogroup of the most ancient times could be R-L23 (which is mine!), and this till Armenians, Hittite, Tocharians (where R-M73 prevailed), and in Western Europe the subclades of R-L23, beginning from R-L51. Of course my hypothesis is that R-L23 and IE languages where then in Italy or nearby.

I noticed that, too, that Dienekes seems to think J2 is the paramount IE y haplogroup and that the data from this report seem to point toward R-L23. In various blog posts in the past, Dienekes has suggested there is a correlation between the distribution of J2 and R1b in Europe.
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2012, 05:19:19 PM »

I noticed that, too, that Dienekes seems to think J2 is the paramount IE y haplogroup and that the data from this report seem to point toward R-L23. In various blog posts in the past, Dienekes has suggested there is a correlation between the distribution of J2 and R1b in Europe.
These are the last positions of Dienekes about J2a (see the comment to this paper in his blog):

“Of course, the idea that the diffusion of J2a related lineages ties in with early agricultural expansions has been with us for a long time, but it is time to abandon it. First of all, as we have seen, J2a diminishes greatly as we head towards South Asia; it certainly doesn't look like the lineage of the multitude of agricultural settlements that sprang up along the southeastern vector soon after the invention of agriculture. Second, it is lacking so far in all ancient Y chromosome data from Europe down to 5,000 years ago. It seems much more probably that J2 related lineages spread from the highlands of West Asia much later.
The "age estimates" are the result of using the inappropriate "evolutionary mutation rate", and become even older because of the inclusion of the DYS388 marker that is very stable in many haplogroups but very mutable within haplogroup J. On the left you can see frequency, Y-STR variance, and haplotype network structures for various J-related groups”.

It would be very interesting (and shocking) if he had the courage we have to declare his haplotype.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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