Answer to Jarman about the Robbins (R-L23/L150+)

[Maliclavelli]

I thank Jarman for having sent me this question:

I think it was you that has mentioned YCAII=18/23, but I have not grasped the significance yet.
I've sponsored a descendant of Daniel Robinson, b. c1627 somewhere in Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23* (L51-). His haplotype includes YCAII=18/23.  Should this mean something important to us?
An additional "oddity" is DYS425=null. Several of these haplotypes are available at http://www.ftdna.com/public/robins/
Thank you.


I reply on the forum, because I think that my answer may have a general meaning.
The problem I raised about YCAII=18-23 has this meaning: in my theory about the origin of the European subclades of R1b1 I think that they were born from a Western European R1b1* with YCAII=18-22 or 18-23 and not from the Eastern one with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23. A consequence of this is that I think that the original YCAII “modal” of R1b1a2* was probably 18-23 and not 19-23 as is thought, also because we have an Italian cluster of R1b1a2* with YCAII=17-23 and it is more economic to think that from YCAII=18-23 we had two subclades with 1 mutation (1 backwards and 1 forwards) rather than one subclade with no mutations and another with a back mutation of two steps. Of course the subclades of R1b1a2*/YCAII=19-23 had these values like modal and also R-L23* had this modal. Then to the question of Jarman I answer that the values of the Robbins =18-23 is likable a back mutation in YCAIIa rather than a descendant of the original R1b1a2* with YCAII=18-23 or a mutation forwards of R1b1a2* with YCAII with 17-23, which always remains a possibility and should be taken present.

These are the Robbins values:

Group#1 - Proven and likely descendants of Daniel Robins, c1627-c1714 of Scotland and New Jersey
92387 Ephraim Robbins, moved NJ to Fayette Co, PA, c1807 Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 N57139 Kirk Robins, b. 1832, Camber, Ontario United Kingdom R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 N72896 Absalom Robbins, b. 1765, of Breckenridge Co., KY Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                           
26091 William Robbins, c1745-c1816, of Rutherford Co, NC United Kingdom R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 35619 Daniel Robens, b c1795, of Carter & Morgan Cos. KY Unknown Origin R1b1
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 72633 George Robins, b. 1806, of Easton, PA d. 1883 Bla Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
82203 Daniel Robins, c1627-c1714, Scotland > NJ Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 10 11 23-23 15 17 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
74013 Robins b 1768 Knowlton, New Jersey USA Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-17-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 19 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
166144 Blatchley Robins, born 1773; died 1814 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 22-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12 36 15 9 15 12 27 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 11 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 15 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
111211 Edward Robbins, b. 1836, NY(?) Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17                                                                                                                 88741 William Robbins, c1745-c1816, of Rutherford Co, NC Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 16 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
72663 James H Robbins, 1830 Overton Co TN; Howell Co MO Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 19 15 36-38 12 12                                                         
73506 William Robins, 1761 - 1837, of NJ, PA & OH Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 19 15 36-38 12 12                                                         
28822 William Robbins d. c1829, Randolph Co., Illinois Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 12 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
63506 William Robbins, c1745-c1816, of Rutherford Co, NC Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
49584 William Robbins, c1745-c1816, of Rutherford Co, NC Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 35-38 12 12                                                         
141348   Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 35-38 12 12                                                         
50143 George Robbins c1833-1881, of Sunflower Co., MS Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
42377 Jonathan Robins, c1720-c1796, of Hunterdon Co., NJ Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
68031 Roley Patterson, abt 1790, SC Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
96254 Amos Robbins, married 1866, Tazewell Co., IL Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
83639 Robbins family - Lincoln Co., Ontario, Canada Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
99938 Daniel Robins, (1786 - 1855) Hunterdon Co., NJ Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
185906 James Allen Robbins, 1887 - 1954 Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 22 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-25 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
220747 Richard Robins, b c1710, res. Rowan Co., NC Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
188604 Richard Robins, b c1710, res. Rowan Co., NC Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17                                                                                                                 111361 William Robbins m. 1802 Wayne Co., KY d. 1836 TX Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 16 21 16 34-37 12 12                                                         
42581 Isaac Robbins, d. c1838, Overton Co., TN Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 19 17 36-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
40812 Richard Robins, b c1710, res. Rowan Co., NC Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
67637 Ransom Robbins, b1793 Montgomery Co VA, d 1869 MN Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                         
37486 Levi Robbins, c1806-c1856, Overton Co., TN Scotland R1b1a2a
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8   9 11 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 20 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
175072   Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
82450 James Robbins, c1793-1860, Giles Co., TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 13 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 53237 William Robins, 1761 - 1837, of NJ, PA & OH Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12 36 15 9 15 12 28 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 11 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 15 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11

Ungrouped
221674 Bernard Ray Robbins b. 1926 d. 1997 United States R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-16-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 12 12                                                     
113574 Pierre Senever dit Marbec, 1699-1789, Paris, Franc France R1b1a2a1a1a
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 18 36-38 12 13 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 12 11 11 13 12                                                                                         
221204 GEORGE ROBBINS England R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 16 21 16 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
84207 Clayton Miller b 1832 McMinn, TN died 12/1909 MO United Kingdom R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 20 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
127343 Chisum, A.J. Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-39 12 12                                                         
224850 Joshua Robbins- Nathaniel Robbins England R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 16 21 16 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
176336 Robert Richard Robbins, b. 1818 AR and d. 1866 TX Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 21 16 36-38 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
107531 John Robbins, b. c1797, of Monongalia, WV Scotland R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 18-23 15 17 22 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                         
164179 John C. Robbins, 1839-1912 Brunswick County, NC Unknown Origin R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 11 12 13 13 13 29 16   9-9 11 11 25 14 19 30 15-15-16-16-17-17 10 10 19-23 16 16 18 17 37-41 12 12                                             
U1914 Albert Eric Vere Robbins b 1898 United Kingdom R1b1a2
12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 11 14 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-17-17                   

It is clear that all these Robbins, and almost all of the ungrouped, descend from one person. The rare mutation in DYS425=0 links them all. In fact who hasn’t this mutation like 113574 (DYS425=12 and YCAII=19-23) belongs to another line, and also others who haven’t tested DYS425 nor YCAII belong to other lines for their values in other markers (164179, U1914). This line has YCAII=18-23, with one person who had a RecLOH and has YCAII=23-23, and this demonstrates that statistically it is more likely a RecLOH than a mutation. I remember that the mutation rate of YCAIIa is 0,000496. Easier a mutation in YCAIIb: MR=0,001141. This could make us think that the Eastern R1b1* are due to a RecLOH, but there we have also 21-23 and I think it is more likely that they are different haplotypes as to the Western ones.

I already noted these Robbins, also because they belong to my haplogroup (R-L23/L150+) and I am waiting within this month my 111 upgrade. 53237, having been tested to 111 markers, has clearly DYS461=11.

[vineviz]

All of the closest matches of the Robins L23+ L51- men have YCAII=19,23.

Certainly this is a simple mutation to 18,23 for this family from the 19,23 ancestral value for R-M269.  Mutations of YCAII are not as rare as some might believe.

[Maliclavelli]

All of the closest matches of the Robins L23+ L51- men have YCAII=19,23.

Certainly this is a simple mutation to 18,23 for this family from the 19,23 ancestral value for R-M269.  Mutations of YCAII are not as rare as some might believe.

This year we haven’t had only the reassessment of mtDNA by Behar et al., but also of the haplogroup R1b1 by the trio Vizachero, Vass, Hrechdakian. I criticized a sacred monster like Behar, imagine if I don’t say mine about Vizachero, probably the author of this reassessment, he who is probably the most East oriented of the three.

What has changed in this haplogroup? Now there are 4 clusters A and 3 clusters B, amongst them B2b is M335, put here we don’t know why (or, better, we know: M335, which I have demonstrated to be European, has put in the East!). A1 is composed by Humphrey, eight Jews (who are the same clade and should count for 1) and DeMao. A2 is composed by the Puerto Ricans. A3 by Armenians. A4 from 2 Germans. Of course this R1b1-A should be the most important, because amongst these should be the ancestor of the subclades, from R1b1a2 to all the others. You know that my theory is that from the R1b1 with YCAII=18-23 (or 18-22) were born both R-M335 and R-M269. These four clusters comprise both YCAII=18-23 (and 18-22) but also 23-23 and 22-23. Which does unify them? They have chosen to privilege DYS413=21-23, but the mutation rate of YCAIIa is 0,000496 and that of DYS413a is 0,00229 and of DYS413b is 0,001527. I let you judge of the reliability of this markers, but in this way the eastern ones are put into the play again.

Mikewww, after paying homage to Vincent Vizachero, says: “What's the big deal? I wasn't aware we were playing a card game. I would like to learn something. I just came from church. That arena is where the confidence of my convictions comes from. This arena of genetic genealogy and population genetics is still in its infancy. Realism about that is a good thing, not a bad thing”.

Mike, you won’t realize if your confidence is well reposed because first you’ll have to dye,
but genetics isn’t a faith: here we do previsions and someone wins someone loses.

We have just seen the capacity of Vincent Vizachero to do previsions about the recent haplotype of the bonesetter of Anglesey! I have made theories and previsions. I have just won about the bonesetter and I am seeing that also about Javakhishvili my previsions were right. I wrote:

This writes Kartveli on Dna-forums:
"I ran all the L389+ haplotypes from the R1b1(xP297) DNA Project through the McGee utility and made a tree with PHYLYP. Now I know, building phylogenetic trees is a complicated process and this can't be very trustworthy, but still I wanted to share the result: [see Dna-forums] Does this make any sense?"
I’d say that this Georgian is very close to R-M335 more than any other subclade, but he should be tested just for this SNP. You know that my theory is that the subclades of R1b1* (the European and most diffused ones) descend from the Italian ones: see DeMeo but also Mangino(actually the Tuscan Mancini).
P.S. Anyway the R-M335 known have YCAII=18-23, and Javakhishvili has 21-23, then he could belong to another subclade of R1b1* and have nothing to do with the European haplotypes. [Is Javakhishvili R-M335? « on: January 25, 2012, 10:13:48 AM »]

But this diagram of Kartveli demonstrates also how useless is this McGee utility and the tree-PHYLYP, just because they treat the markers values without considering my golden principles: mutations around the modal, convergence to the modal as time passes, some mutations go for
the tangent. It is clear for me that R1b1-A2 and R-M335 descend from the same haplotype which generated the European R-M269* (probably with YCAII=18-23) and have nothing to do with the others. Then if Javakhishvili were actually R-M335 my theory should be reconsidered[Re: Is Javakhishvili R-M335?]

Now also Javakhishvili has been reassessed by the trio, and I was right: “216826  Javakhishvili   Kaikhosro Javakhishvili, b.c. 15??, Georgia     R1b R-M343  M18-, M269-, M335-, M343+”. But what are waiting they to test him for P25 or L389?

[vineviz]

These four clusters comprise both YCAII=18-23 (and 18-22) but also 23-23 and 22-23. Which does unify them? They have chosen to privilege DYS413=21-23, but the mutation rate of YCAIIa is 0,000496 and that of DYS413a is 0,00229 and of DYS413b is 0,001527.

Among all the nonsense, this is the only piece I suspect of being even tangentially related to the topic, so I'll reply to it.

You allege some "privilege" to DYS413, yet the clusters were built without any use of that marker whatsoever (or any other multi-copy marker, for that matter).  When I construct a GD matrix (a prerequisite to building the phylogeny), I omit multi-copy markers because there is no objective way to properly count GD in a manner consistent with the single-copy markers.

VV

[acekon]

http://www.yhrd.org/DYS393

It would be interesting to see the allele distribution graphs broken down into catagories, with snp's.

[OConnor]

it seems that I have many Robbins matches in the 23/25 range.

I also pointed out in another topic about some Murphy's who have similar sequences.

Mine... 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29...and so on...


Perhaps there an ancient connection? Murphy/Robbins/O'Connor ?

[Maliclavelli]

it seems that I have many Robbins matches in the 23/25 range.

I also pointed out in another topic about some Murphy's who have similar sequences.

Mine... 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29...and so on...


Perhaps there an ancient connection? Murphy/Robbins/O'Connor ?

You are R-L21 and the Murphys/Robbins are R-L150 like me, then you aren't closely related, but I am receiving my upgrade to 111 and I am close to all the modals under P312. What does it means? That you all descend from "me" and there we all are linked, then also you and the Murphys who belong to my haplorgoup.