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Author Topic: An IE Thread That Began on 03 April 2012  (Read 13581 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #275 on: July 17, 2012, 01:41:39 PM »

Oh and I wonder if the whole L23* spread and distribution (and perhaps the mixing with mountain elements in the area) would have something to do with the gradual infilltration of rounder headed people that has been observed in Copper Age Europe.  It was apparently also rare in Anatolia before the copper age according to a new post by Dienekes on Anatolia and Greece. 

Another thought is that if R1b was a steppe fringe group who had developed upland farming rather than nomadism then they may have looked to spread into similar area.  If R1b and R1a first arose to prominance among groups adapted to upland settled farming and steppes nomadism then they may have spread in a way that they didnt initially actually conflict much as they were looking for different environments for their different subsistance strategy.  That could explain quite a lot about the way their distributions seem so different.  Basically two sides of the same coin but different in crucial ways.  L23* and to a lesser extent M269* may demonstrate this when compared to R1a of the same age.  Even downstream from L23* R1b does seem to peak in upland areas.  I wouldnt push this too far and it may simply be down to one group seeking open steppe-like environments and the other settling the agricultural lands (and not being phased by it being mountain land).   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #276 on: July 17, 2012, 02:30:06 PM »

Ignoring the details of the interpretation, these papers (which I am sure have been posted before) are very interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/#R7

More food for thought type stuff than conclusive. 
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Jarman
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« Reply #277 on: July 17, 2012, 03:23:39 PM »

What is the direction of learned speculation now - does IE = Bell Beaker folk? And since there is a connection between Bell Beaker and Yamna, does that connection also include Maikop?  And finally, what pulled or pushed Yamna and/or Maikop away from their Black Sea homeland?
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razyn
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« Reply #278 on: July 17, 2012, 03:47:57 PM »

And finally, what pulled or pushed Yamna and/or Maikop away from their Black Sea homeland?

I was idly wondering whether the half-mile diameter asteroid impact of 3123 BC had anything to do with it.

Just saw that recently on some over-the-top cable TV show about Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife being basically a cinder, etc.  There is a Sumerian astronomical observation that they think refers to it.  I take such things with a grain of salt; but an actual impact of that size (and at that recent date) might well have had observable consequences to the food supply then, and in the gene pool later.

On the other hand, the incoming body allegedly clipped a mountain in Australia, and I don't think Sumerians would have seen that.  Maybe too many separate events, or tales, are being conflated.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,343674,00.html

Can't believe I just cited that, as if it were an actual news source.  It's just the easy path to what I'm talking about, whether real or imagined.
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R1b Z196*
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« Reply #279 on: July 17, 2012, 04:24:17 PM »

A while back there was a theory (I don't know who's) about an eruption of Krakatoa causing emissions that led to climate change in Europe that led to poor harvests and the effects led to Germanic migration and a weakening of the Roman Empire and it's eventual downfall. Dendrochronology in Ireland testified to the climate change at the time. 
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #280 on: July 17, 2012, 04:35:31 PM »


That quoting problem does sometimes happen,  Not sure why.  

I do find it interesting though that Dienekes seems to be slowly morphing his Asia idea from the first farmers in Anatolia to the fringes of it slightly to the north and also to a point later in time.  I quite like that idea (and several people have offered ideas not too different from it in the past).  There were copper age cultures intermediate between the steppes and Mesopotamia.  The most famous is Maykop but there could be others.  The mountain fringe area to the east of the Caucuses is pretty obscure to me.  

However, I would tend to think, due to the two-direction movement of L23* into the farming zones to the south (Anatolia etc) and west (Balkans) that it is less likely to have come fom either an eastern or western extreme on the steppes.  I think its probably more likely that it was somewhere like on the very shore of the north Black Sea or the Caucuses.  We know R1a had a trajectory that took it into south-east Germany in the Corded Ware period and we know its distribution today tends to be from there eastwards.  We also know L23* tends to be older to the south of it.  So, I am tempted to see a pattern of R1b either being bypassed slightly by R1a passing to the north or maybe exiting in two directions (to the Balkans and through the Caucuses) from its path.  Yamanaya as far as I know is thought to have pulsed out from further east so perhaps L23* was located around the Caucuses or nearby on the Black Sea shore itself and was bypassed slightly to the north or pushed west and south.  One hint at a shore position for L23 is the apparent maritime aspect of L23* and its later descendants.  

I really could do with knowing more about the shores of the Black Sea.  I know about Kemi Oba which pre-Yamnaya roots in the Lower Michaeylovka culture and there were links with Maykop.  Maykop really facinates me the way it was the link between the steppes and Mesopotamia through the Caucuses and developed its own mountain agriculture.  I think somewhere in there might be where Dienekes is edging towards.  

The dates of Maykop of c. 3700BC would not seem out of place for L23* nor would its higher variance area.  It would also place R1b in a situation where it was more agricultural than steppe nomads like Yamnaya and that could have influenced its choice of directions to expand into, maybe preferring locations other than steppe land. That could partly explain the distibition of R1b.  Agriculturist groups (even if they had steppe roots) would not have been as attracted by steppe environments as groups who were well adapted to that environment and thrusting deep into the steppes may have not been an option to them compared to R1a Yamanaya and related groups.  

Disclaimer- i am dabbling in an area that I have limited knowledge on.

In the end, it seems pretty clear where he is going with all of this - that J2 is "the" PIE Y-DNA marker.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #281 on: July 17, 2012, 08:05:44 PM »


That quoting problem does sometimes happen,  Not sure why.  

I do find it interesting though that Dienekes seems to be slowly morphing his Asia idea from the first farmers in Anatolia to the fringes of it slightly to the north and also to a point later in time.  I quite like that idea (and several people have offered ideas not too different from it in the past).  There were copper age cultures intermediate between the steppes and Mesopotamia.  The most famous is Maykop but there could be others.  The mountain fringe area to the east of the Caucuses is pretty obscure to me.  

However, I would tend to think, due to the two-direction movement of L23* into the farming zones to the south (Anatolia etc) and west (Balkans) that it is less likely to have come fom either an eastern or western extreme on the steppes.  I think its probably more likely that it was somewhere like on the very shore of the north Black Sea or the Caucuses.  We know R1a had a trajectory that took it into south-east Germany in the Corded Ware period and we know its distribution today tends to be from there eastwards.  We also know L23* tends to be older to the south of it.  So, I am tempted to see a pattern of R1b either being bypassed slightly by R1a passing to the north or maybe exiting in two directions (to the Balkans and through the Caucuses) from its path.  Yamanaya as far as I know is thought to have pulsed out from further east so perhaps L23* was located around the Caucuses or nearby on the Black Sea shore itself and was bypassed slightly to the north or pushed west and south.  One hint at a shore position for L23 is the apparent maritime aspect of L23* and its later descendants.  

I really could do with knowing more about the shores of the Black Sea.  I know about Kemi Oba which pre-Yamnaya roots in the Lower Michaeylovka culture and there were links with Maykop.  Maykop really facinates me the way it was the link between the steppes and Mesopotamia through the Caucuses and developed its own mountain agriculture.  I think somewhere in there might be where Dienekes is edging towards.  

The dates of Maykop of c. 3700BC would not seem out of place for L23* nor would its higher variance area.  It would also place R1b in a situation where it was more agricultural than steppe nomads like Yamnaya and that could have influenced its choice of directions to expand into, maybe preferring locations other than steppe land. That could partly explain the distibition of R1b.  Agriculturist groups (even if they had steppe roots) would not have been as attracted by steppe environments as groups who were well adapted to that environment and thrusting deep into the steppes may have not been an option to them compared to R1a Yamanaya and related groups.  

Disclaimer- i am dabbling in an area that I have limited knowledge on.

In the end, it seems pretty clear where he is going with all of this - that J2 is "the" PIE Y-DNA marker.

Well I think we will finally have a lot of the answers over the next few years ane I doubt that is going to be one of them!
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Jean M
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« Reply #282 on: July 17, 2012, 09:08:25 PM »

What is the direction of learned speculation now - does IE = Bell Beaker folk?

No. Bell Beaker is just one of the many cultures that can be linked with IE languages late and early. This being a R1b forum, there has been particular interest in Bell Beaker because its distribution correlates pretty well with the later coverage of Celtic and Italic languages and the spread of R1b. (I'm leaving Germanic out of this summary - it is too complicated. I'm also leaving out the Bell Beaker and R1b around the Vistula for the same reason.) 
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Jean M
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« Reply #283 on: July 17, 2012, 09:20:15 PM »

And since there is a connection between Bell Beaker and Yamna, does that connection also include Maikop?  

Maikop is certainly connected to Yamnaya. It had an influence on the development of Yamna from the start (notably the use of kurgan burials). When the Maikop Culture collapsed c. 3,100 BC, some of its people melded into Yamnaya. The big debate has been over the language issue. Some scholars include Maikop in PIE. Others (such as David Anthony) firmly exclude it - with good reason in my view. Maikop has its origins in the Near East. It is not the culture from which Afanasievo derives. Maikop melds into Yamnaya far too late to provide the dominant language for that horizon.
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Jean M
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« Reply #284 on: July 17, 2012, 09:25:13 PM »

what pulled or pushed Yamna and/or Maikop away from their Black Sea homeland?

The Maikop Culture collapsed because of some upset (pretty violent) in its trade relations with Sumer. Yamnaya was more moved by the pasture problem. A shift in the climate after 3200 BC may have encouraged an exodus from the European steppe. Conditions became colder and drier. In the forest-steppe belt the forest was reduced and the steppe expanded. The region was at its most arid between 2700 and 2000 BC.
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razyn
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« Reply #285 on: July 18, 2012, 10:57:43 AM »

A shift in the climate after 3200 BC may have encouraged an exodus from the European steppe.

I was thinking a big asteroid impact in 3123 BC might have contributed to that (or even caused it).  Supposedly, the airborne ash darkened the sky for a few years.  And the Sumerians were the ones who wrote it up... for whatever that's worth.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #286 on: July 18, 2012, 12:20:29 PM »

what pulled or pushed Yamna and/or Maikop away from their Black Sea homeland?

The Maikop Culture collapsed because of some upset (pretty violent) in its trade relations with Sumer. Yamnaya was more moved by the pasture problem. A shift in the climate after 3200 BC may have encouraged an exodus from the European steppe. Conditions became colder and drier. In the forest-steppe belt the forest was reduced and the steppe expanded. The region was at its most arid between 2700 and 2000 BC.

I was reading the recent Maikop skulls paper with interest.  Pretty inconclusive but probably some sort of mixed near east-steppes group.  I was looking to see if there might be deeper roots to the bell beaker type or even some steppes towards it that pre-date the simialr Balkans types.  Not a great match though.

It is still interesting how the round headed form just came from nowhere (wasnt present in steppes or Anatolia) in the Copper Age in many places.  I know there are cases where climate or sexual selection may be the answer and something similar happened in Medieval Europe too.  Its hard not to notice that the round headed form was certainly later strongest in Mountain areas.  Clearly there was a lot of interest in mountain areas for metal deposits in the copper age.  I am wondering if the spread or development of rounder heads was particurly stong in the uplands as it spread in the copper age.  Some sort of adaptation mixed with migration (not sure about the chicken and egg aspect) might have happened.  You tend to read about this phenomenon in terms of Anatolia, Balkans, Alps, beaker people etc where round headedness remains in many places today.  This may be unconnected but I recall reading that rrounder heads in France were associated with the Alps and Brittany and I know In Ireland that the SW of Ireland (the area of the early copper mines) is seen as the Irish stronghold of round headedness.  I understand it is also common along the Rhine and Belgium and of course the alps east of France.  I dont know what was going on but there are interesting patterns.   
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A.D.
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« Reply #287 on: July 18, 2012, 06:16:32 PM »

Anyone seen this article  at

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/search/label/pigmentation
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