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Mark Jost
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« on: July 17, 2012, 01:38:57 PM »

How does this writers views hold up to any truth?

Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Britonum

The work alleges the settlement of Britain by Trojan expatriates, and states that the nation of Britain took its name after Brutus, a descendant of Aeneas. This work was also the "single most important source used by Geoffrey of Monmouth in creating his Historia Regum Britanniae",[3] and via the enormous popularity of that work, this brand of the earlier history of Britain, including the Trojan origin tradition, became incorporated into subsequent chronicles for the long-running history of the land, e.g., the Middle English Brut of England aka The Chronicles of England
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 01:44:09 PM »

How does this writers views hold up to any truth?

Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Britonum

The work alleges the settlement of Britain by Trojan expatriates, and states that the nation of Britain took its name after Brutus, a descendant of Aeneas. This work was also the "single most important source used by Geoffrey of Monmouth in creating his Historia Regum Britanniae",[3] and via the enormous popularity of that work, this brand of the earlier history of Britain, including the Trojan origin tradition, became incorporated into subsequent chronicles for the long-running history of the land, e.g., the Middle English Brut of England aka The Chronicles of England


Like Welsh Nenius and the Irish Book of Invasions its historical use is extremely minimal indeed.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 01:59:51 PM »

How does this writers views hold up to any truth?

Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Britonum

The work alleges the settlement of Britain by Trojan expatriates, and states that the nation of Britain took its name after Brutus, a descendant of Aeneas. This work was also the "single most important source used by Geoffrey of Monmouth in creating his Historia Regum Britanniae",[3] and via the enormous popularity of that work, this brand of the earlier history of Britain, including the Trojan origin tradition, became incorporated into subsequent chronicles for the long-running history of the land, e.g., the Middle English Brut of England aka The Chronicles of England


Like Welsh Nenius and the Irish Book of Invasions its historical use is extremely minimal indeed.

I would agree but as history being embellished some truth is at is core.

http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur/geofmon.html

How would information like the "Troy' Story get fabricated into this work and not be held out out as nonsense by other experts at the time and forever perpetuating that this was a false work.
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A.D.
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 04:01:44 PM »

At the time there seems to be attempts by a lot of 'kingdoms' to be the 'rightful heirs of Rome' , there was the 'Holy Roman Empire. The Romans claimed to be descendants of the Trojans. I think it was a question of legitimacy, God no their side etc.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 04:42:15 PM »

The Aeneid was extremely popular in early middle ages. In the Book of Leinster (1160) there is a story called "Togail Troí" (The Taking of Troy) which is a translation from middle-Irish of "De excidio Trojae historia", likewise there is a translation of the Aenid which is called "Imtheachta Aenisa" and of Lucan's Pharsalia (Civil War) called "In Cath Catharda"

Article about the Aenid translation here:
http://www.classicsireland.com/2004/poppe.html

Other translations (all in Middle Irish (circa 1000-1300)
Scél In Mhínaduir   (Story of the Minotaur)
Stair Ercuil ocus a bhás   (The history of Hercules and his death)
Merugud Uilix Maicc Leirtis   (The Wanderings of Ulysses son of Laertes)
Scéla Alaxandair maic Pilip   (The Tale of Alexander (the Great) son of Philip)
Togail na Tebe   (Statius: Thebaid (Seven Against Thebes))


For example "Muirchertach mac Néill" (d. 943 AD)the son of Niall Glundubh (Niall of the Black-knee) was called the "Hector of the Western World" in the Annals of Ulster in his obiturary.

He's an interesting character as his son was the first man to bear the surname Ó Néill this been Domnall ua Néill (ua = Ó) who was high king form 955-980AD. The name signifying "grandson/descendant of Niall Glundubh. Who had been High King from 916 to 919AD (when he was killed in battle with the Dublin Vikings). Muirchetach was likewise killed in battle at Armagh with the Dublin vikings who were led by Blácaire mac Gofrith.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 04:43:37 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
A.D.
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »

Some say this is the origin of the O'Neill surname. Though Niall Glundubh is supposed to be a direct descendent of Nial of 9 hostages.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 06:23:10 PM »

Well it is the origin of the Ó Néill of Ulster surname, obviously there are other Ó Néill surnames around Ireland descended from different men called Niall. Surnames that were multigenerational only come into existence during the 10th century in Ireland, before that it was like Iceland is currently, the surname would change each generation to reflect your father's name.

Obviously Niall Glundubh was a member of the Northern Uí Néill "dynasty". So in Irish:
Uí Néill == descendants of Niall Noígíallach (Niall na Naoi nGiallach = modern irish)
Cenél nEóghain == "kindred" of Eoghan mac Néill -- son of Niall Noígiallach, one of originally three "kindreds" of the Northern Uí Néill.
Ua/Ó Néill == descendants of Niall Glundubh member of the Cenél nEóghain and thus the Northern Uí Néill.

The Uí Neill rotated the Highkingship between the Northern and Southern Branches (some exceptions). Niall Glundubh was succeded by "Donnchadh Donn mac Flainn" who was a member of Clann Cholmáin of the Southern Uí Néill. The succession before the rise of Brian Boru and the interuption of Uí Néill grasp was following during the 9th and 10th centuries

Niall Caille mac Áeda (832-846) Cenél nEóghain -- Northern
Máel Sechnaill mac Máele Ruanaid (846–860) Clann Cholmáin -- Southern
Aed Findliath mac Néill (861–876) Cenél nEóghain -- Northern
Flann Sinna (877–914) Clann Cholmáin -- Southern
Niall Glúndub mac Áedo (915–917) Cenél nEóghain -- Northern
Donnchad Donn    (918–942)  Clann Cholmáin -- Southern
Congalach Cnogba (943–954)  Síl nÁedo Sláine -- Southern
Domnall (mac Muirchertaigh) ua Néill (955–978) Cenél nEóghain -- Northern
Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill (979–1002) -- Clann Cholmáin -- Southern

In the above list you the Cenél nEóghain kings are all a direct lineage of father -> son, apart from transistion of Niall Glundubh -> Domhnall Ua Néill (father -> grandson). If Muirchertach hadn't been killed in battle in 943 he would probably had succeded to the throne.

Domnall Ua Néill son of Muirchertach son of Niall Glundubh son of Aedh son of Niall Caille son of Aedh ....
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Jean M
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 09:31:11 PM »

How would information like the "Troy' Story get fabricated into this work and not be held out out as nonsense by other experts at the time and forever perpetuating that this was a false work.

In fact it was criticised by a better historian even when it came out. But you have to understand that true historians (i.e. writers keen to get at the truth and critical of their sources) were few and far between until modern times.

I have a page up on one particular story of his, that goes into a bit of the background: The mystery of Bladud  

A lot of his thinking was based on false etymology, which was very common in his day. If people knew nothing about the history of a place, they would try to guess something from its name. After all, they knew that some places were genuinely named after a person. The Brutus story is in that category. Isodore of Seville had rather rudely supposed in his etymologies that that Britain was so named because the people were brutes! Geoffrey was not the first to try to put a better gloss on this by turning the meaning into a foundation by Brutus. Troy was a false etymology from Trinovantes, which he thought meant "New Troy" I think. I would need to check. Actual meaning: the Celtic intensive prefix tri- ("very") to the novio ("new, fresh") element.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 09:47:10 PM by Jean M » Logged
Bren123
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2012, 07:59:50 AM »

How would information like the "Troy' Story get fabricated into this work and not be held out out as nonsense by other experts at the time and forever perpetuating that this was a false work.

In fact it was criticised by a better historian even when it came out. But you have to understand that true historians (i.e. writers keen to get at the truth and critical of their sources) were few and far between until modern times.

I have a page up on one particular story of his, that goes into a bit of the background: The mystery of Bladud  

A lot of his thinking was based on false etymology, which was very common in his day. If people knew nothing about the history of a place, they would try to guess something from its name. After all, they knew that some places were genuinely named after a person. The Brutus story is in that category. Isodore of Seville had rather rudely supposed in his etymologies that that Britain was so named because the people were brutes! Geoffrey was not the first to try to put a better gloss on this by turning the meaning into a foundation by Brutus. Troy was a false etymology from Trinovantes, which he thought meant "New Troy" I think. I would need to check. Actual meaning: the Celtic intensive prefix tri- ("very") to the novio ("new, fresh") element.



There was actually someone I was having a converstion with tried to imply that the Trinovantes name had its origins in Troy.
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Jean M
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 11:49:40 AM »

Yes I'm pretty sure that's a bit of Geoffrey. The irritating thing is that he never explains where he gets these ideas, so the unwary reader does not realise that it is all guessing games from place-names. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 11:51:04 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 01:11:56 PM »

Yes I'm pretty sure that's a bit of Geoffrey. The irritating thing is that he never explains where he gets these ideas, so the unwary reader does not realise that it is all guessing games from place-names. 

Did a lot of these crazy classical derivations not actually start with Nennius? 
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A.D.
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 04:21:44 PM »

Nennius, Bede-- Christian monks how many depictions of Jesus have Semitic features.
In most he looks more like a son of Odin in most. Hardly without an agenda.
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Jean M
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 05:33:26 AM »

Did a lot of these crazy classical derivations not actually start with Nennius?  

He certainly went in for it (the foundation of Britain by Brutus is one of his, which he says he took from Mark the anchorite), but Geoffrey added a lot more guessing from place-names, and what is worse he claimed that his history was a translation of an ancient book, which fooled a lot of people, rather than admitting its actual nature. Nennius was more honest:

Quote
Be it known to your charity, that being dull in intellect and rude of speech, I have presumed to deliver these things in the Latin tongue, not trusting to my own learning, which is little or none at all, but partly from traditions of our ancestors, partly from writings and monuments of the ancient inhabitants of Britain, partly from the annals of the Romans, and the chronicles of the sacred fathers, Isidore, Hieronymus, Prosper, Eusebius, and from the histories of the Scots and Saxons, although our enemies, not following my own inclinations, but, to the best of my ability, obeying the commands of my seniors; I have lispingly put together this history from various sources...
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Jean M
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 05:35:01 AM »

[Dup]
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:35:42 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mark Jost
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 09:59:59 AM »

How would information like the "Troy' Story get fabricated into this work and not be held out out as nonsense by other experts at the time and forever perpetuating that this was a false work.

In fact it was criticised by a better historian even when it came out. But you have to understand that true historians (i.e. writers keen to get at the truth and critical of their sources) were few and far between until modern times.

I have a page up on one particular story of his, that goes into a bit of the background: The mystery of Bladud  

A lot of his thinking was based on false etymology, which was very common in his day. If people knew nothing about the history of a place, they would try to guess something from its name. After all, they knew that some places were genuinely named after a person. The Brutus story is in that category. Isodore of Seville had rather rudely supposed in his etymologies that that Britain was so named because the people were brutes! Geoffrey was not the first to try to put a better gloss on this by turning the meaning into a foundation by Brutus. Troy was a false etymology from Trinovantes, which he thought meant "New Troy" I think. I would need to check. Actual meaning: the Celtic intensive prefix tri- ("very") to the novio ("new, fresh") element.

Jean, as always, you have a nice summary of the subject. Thanks.

MJost
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 08:00:34 AM »

Nennius, Bede-- Christian monks how many depictions of Jesus have Semitic features.
In most he looks more like a son of Odin in most. Hardly without an agenda.

Maybe it was because  sons of Odin were great Christians &great  contributors to the church at their times.
 
Most likely it was because that was what the mass of the people saw in their daily lives, similar to black Christians in Africa using black Jesus or East Asians using East Asian looking  Buddha idols I think you’re reading a little too much into it, there weren’t many British Israelists or black Israelites around trying to usurp another’s heritage.
The worst you can say even about the lying national genealogies of the time by Europeans was it an attempt at linking to a historical people, Scythians, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc, for more prestige or political purposes & not to try to take it from someone else.
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