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Author Topic: Are the modern Irish really an admixture?  (Read 5262 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: July 13, 2012, 08:34:38 AM »

As I've said noted, as a good Irishman, I'm ready for a good argument any time. Even if it turns out my paternal lineages have more Norman or Welsh than Old Irish we all know they were said to be more Irish than the Irish themselves - "Níos Gaelaí ná na Gaeil iad féin." Either way, I've got enough Old Irish to be belligerent when called upon.

I get a little tired of the sarcasm that implies or insists one thing or another about the Irish.  An hypothetical example might be that because you have a Gaelic surname you are of ancient Gaelic descent. Another hypothetical example might be that certain SNPs are quintessentially Gaelic and therefore if you are French or German and have that SNP you are from an historic back-migration from Ireland. A third might be that if you are in Scandinavia or Italy with that SNP you are descend from an imported slave.

It is probably true that some SNPs are Irish originated any SNP that is over 1000 years old is going to be hard to discern an origination on. Even M222, I say.  I recognize that modern Irish descendants are dominated by the L21+ SNP but there is no doubt there are other haplogroups in the mix. There probably were some slaves from Ireland that have surviving lineages elsewhere but that doesn't seem to fully (or even mostly) explain the appearance of L21 in most places outside of the Isles.


As you know, we even have some U106 folks who are pretty convinced they are Gaelic.
And we wouldn't want that, would we boys?  ;-)

Not true. Not at all, at least for me.

I've definitely shown openess toward U106 being in the Isles before the Anglo-Saxon Invasion period and have said so on my multiple occasions. Below is one example, but I know I've presented stronger statements in the past that this one. I think some forms of U106 could have been with the ancient Gaels who came into Britain and Ireland or soon after.

....
U106 is not any older in the Scandinavian Peninsula than it is in England, that I can see.

I looked at the Alpine area (Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, N. Italy) and tried to combine with and keep separated from S. Germany but it made no difference. U106 looks older to the north, although, I'll say again it's variance in Germany just wasn't that high.

Variance is higher over in Hungary, Czech Republic, but it is definitely highest in Poland. Some of the people from Poland list themselves as German background, Prussia, etc.

This is pure just speculating without trying to align with other kinds of evidence, but I'd guess moved into NW Europe from the SE Baltic coast along into Denmark/Saxony and then from there spreading across into the Scandinavian Peninsula, the Isles and down into Germany.

The one really strange thing about this is that U198 seems to be oldest subclade of U106. It's most prevalent and oldest in England though.  What do studies show about U198? Would an early form of U106, i.e. U198, have moved into the British Isles before the Anglo-Saxons and the history we know about?
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10012.msg123999#msg123999

There are not only other haplogroups in the mix in Ireland, but L21 is not the monolith some people think it is. Anatole Klyosov analysis once concluded that there were twelve major founders in the L21 family. We know that under DF13 there are at least five big subclades - DF21, DF49, L513/DF1, Z253 and Z255. We don't even know if the TMRCAs for each of these are Irish? Some may have been pre-Gaelic or some may have come from a foreign country.

I don't know, but my inclination is that the Ireland is a country of immigrants, the first Gaels being just one group. There were probably multiple waves of Q-Celtic (which may actally be pre-Gaelic) and then P-Celtc (which I don't think you can call Gaelic) people. I'm not sure what the Belgae spoke, but they came to Ireland. I'm not sure what the Picts spoke, but they came too.

Even Irish mythology, the Book of Invasions is the book invasions. Why should we think there was only one invasion when all Gaels or pre-Gaels came to Ireland.  This would be equivalent to saying England is monolithic and settled solely in the Anglo-Saxon Invasion Era. I doubt it.

Not much is really pure of anything so I don't see any particular ownership of the Gaelic title.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 09:02:13 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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whoknows
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 08:45:11 AM »

Mike I applaud your balanced and questioning position with regard to this subject. I share your general position and cannot see anything but reason and probability that various Haplogroups, as part of an admixture could have entered Eire,prior to the arrival of Strongbow and subsequent English colonization. I include in that model R U106, not denying it's current frequency in Germanic regions, but equally not deluding myself that it may not have established a presence in Ireland at an early time.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 08:45:24 AM by whoknows » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 08:56:43 AM »

I agree that the Irish are an admixture of different peoples, but to what extent I think depends on the area in Ireland. In other words, one might see more Norman or Scandinavian ancestry in the eastern part of the island, whereas the western part is not as affected by these population movements.

L21 is shared by more Irish males than in both England and Scotland, so at least among paternal lineages there is less variation in Ireland.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 09:01:26 AM »

... I don't know, but my inclination is that the Ireland is a country of immigrants, the first Gaels being just one group. There were probably multiple waves of Q-Celtic (which may actally be pre-Gaelic) and then P-Celtc (which I don't think you can call Gaelic) people.
....
Not much is really pure of anything so I don't see any particular ownership of the Gaelic title.

I don't know if these questions have a clear answer or not, which is why I ask -
When did what we now think of as Gaelic languages first come about? and where? Was this a localized (in Ireland) dialect of ancient Q-Celtic languages? Could it have been initiated in Iberia or in England and brought in with some various invasion?

I've read that "Goidel" was just what the Welshmen called the Old Irish. It's actually a Welsh term in that event. One story I've read is that Gael is take-off of an Egyptian princess named Scota. Of course the Romans called raiders from Ireland Scoti, which then is really a Latin term.

If I understand correctly, Goidel Glas is the founder of the language. He's supposed to be Greek, right?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 01:33:56 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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inver2b1
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 09:13:01 AM »

Just using the search function over the last few fays and I noticed one of Alans posts where he brings up the origin of the word gael and it derives from a Welsh word for raider or wild man. So by using it in the context of expecting a movement of people to go along with it may be misleading.
When the Irish statistics are brought up, what was the source data based on?
Is it a lrage number, does it cover many counties/regions, did it look at rural areas, try to get as many surnames/or surname groups etc
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I-L126
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 09:38:18 AM »

Gaeilge is the name of the Irish language. Originally meaning literally  'the speak' in ancient Irish. This is the most common belief by far, so it is. So by definition if 'you have the Irish' you're a Gael.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 09:41:05 AM »


If I understand correctly, Goidel Glas is the founder of the language. He's supposed to be Greek, right?


Goidel Glas was "Scythian", I think. And I think you are right about the word Scotti coming from the Romans, and the word Gael from Welsh. I remember reading that Gael means "raider".
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inver2b1
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2012, 09:55:06 AM »

But wasn't Scythia one of those places in classical times that everyone wanted to be part of for prestige reasons, just like how people wanted a connection to biblical times. I don't think anyones mythology says they were descended from sheep thieves or other undesirables.
Someone on DNA Forums put it well when discussing Bedes claim that the Picts were descended from Scythians, to paraphrase:
what would Bede know about Scythis freezing his knackers off in Sunderland
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2012, 10:02:12 AM »

But wasn't Scythia one of those places in classical times that everyone wanted to be part of for prestige reasons, just like how people wanted a connection to biblical times. I don't think anyones mythology says they were descended from sheep thieves or other undesirables.
Someone on DNA Forums put it well when discussing Bedes claim that the Picts were descended from Scythians, to paraphrase:
what would Bede know about Scythis freezing his knackers off in Sunderland

You're right. Anyone who lived north of the Greeks/Romans was considered a Scythian at one time or another. I think Ogma is actually considered the inventor of the Irish language though.

Ironically, Celtic pressure from the west was one of the reasons Scythia ultimately fell.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 10:02:25 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

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A.D.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2012, 10:10:38 AM »

Ogma invented writing, I don't know about language.
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whoknows
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2012, 10:13:53 AM »

Kinda lost on the object/focus of this thread, after just a handful of posts its gone from the Haplogroup profile of Ireland to a discussion on Scythia(a popular subject it seems). Oh for moderation that was intolerant of folks going-off topic
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2012, 10:23:46 AM »

Kinda lost on the object/focus of this thread, after just a handful of posts its gone from the Haplogroup profile of Ireland to a discussion on Scythia(a popular subject it seems). Oh for moderation that was intolerant of folks going-off topic

There's no need for moderation there, right? I may be wrong, but the moderator is referring to those topics that are controversial and just beyond amicable correspondence. The thread is pretty much hijacked at that point.

Anyway, I think we can agree the Irish are not Scythians.
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2012, 11:15:48 AM »

Kinda lost on the object/focus of this thread, after just a handful of posts its gone from the Haplogroup profile of Ireland to a discussion on Scythia(a popular subject it seems). Oh for moderation that was intolerant of folks going-off topic

Look at the title of the thread. Just to make it easy for you, it is "Are the modern Irish really an admixture?", not "Haplogroup Profile of Ireland."

A discussion of whether or not Goidel Glas was a Scythian is entirely appropriate for this thread.
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whoknows
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2012, 11:31:41 AM »

Thanks for making it simple now I can see how in your view as impartial and detached moderator, as opposed to biased agent provocateur, you would insist that responses on Scythians and obtuse linguistic definitions of archaic Irish terms is entirely salient to this thread's original post and its questions on Ireland's modern population possibly being an admixture. I remain sincerely grateful for your enlightened and balanced insights.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2012, 11:36:31 AM »

You're entirely welcome (for now).

BTW, no one is trying to provoke anyone or anything. I personally would not have started a thread like this, knowing you were lurking here and already stirred up to resume your crusade to make U106 aboriginal in Ireland.

But Mike did it, so feel free to use this thread to indulge yourself.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:38:50 AM by rms2 » Logged

inver2b1
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2012, 11:37:21 AM »

Em, if there historic claims that a wave of people ancestral to the current Irish population came from a certain area then discussing that area and other linguistic claims to that area is relevant.

In projects like dodcad, there is a component usuallylabelled North Atlantic, West European etc that usually averages over 70% in Irish people. Has this component been identified as bronze age or iron age etc
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I-L126
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2012, 11:39:04 AM »

Always reassuring to note the civility and maturity of thinking  that characterizes your moderation of discussion here, particularly on the subject of R U106 and Ireland.

What disappoints however is the extent to which you go beyond the role of Moderator and employ a language that barely conceals insult and indulges in a deliberate distortion of my views.

I was not 'lurking' another term used to imply a pejorative meaning, nor am I engaged in a 'crusade' simply offering questions and a perspective that runs counter to a somewhat fossilized opinion.

Lastly, kindly refrain from placing words into my comments, I have not stated that R U106 is 'aboriginal' to Ireland, it's not a phrase I am comfortable with for one and secondly what I am actually speculating upon is the probability that it may have arrived in Ireland at an earlier time than later 'Germanic' invasions. That view, and we are all entitled to express such here without being exposed to ridicule and insult, is not entirely removed from what Mike was proposing in  his opening comments.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:48:17 AM by whoknows » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2012, 11:40:54 AM »

Em, if there historic claims that a wave of people ancestral to the current Irish population came from a certain area then discussing that area and other linguistic claims to that area is relevant.

Exactly right.

In projects like dodcad, there is a component usuallylabelled North Atlantic, West European etc that usually averages over 70% in Irish people. Has this component been identified as bronze age or iron age etc

That's a good question. I don't have the answer.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 11:41:21 AM by rms2 » Logged

A.D.
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2012, 04:04:47 PM »

Aren't Scythian s normally associated with horse riding. The oldest evidence found of horse riding in the British Isles and I believe Ireland is in the Iron-age in England.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2012, 04:16:19 PM »

Aren't Scythian s normally associated with horse riding. The oldest evidence found of horse riding in the British Isles and I believe Ireland is in the Iron-age in England.

Yes, but they were not the only ones. In fact, when the Scythian nation was in decline, we would expect the Sarmatians and Celts pressuring from the east and west respectively to have ridden horses too.
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2012, 04:16:43 PM »

Scythian horses were the predecessors of or early types of Akhal Teke. As far as I know there were none of this type in the Isles until the introduction of the Thoroughbred. I would think any Scythian s would have brought their horses with them.    
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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2012, 04:27:20 PM »

If I remember correctly the iron age saw the introduction of larger more gracile breed(s) of horse better suited to riding than the native Cobb type sometimes known as Celtic ponies.
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whoknows
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2012, 05:24:39 AM »

hmmm

Thread topic is Re: Are the modern Irish really an admixture?

Now the discussion is on Scythian horse breeds!

Someone kindly jump through some hoops  to argue the relevance?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 05:25:01 AM by whoknows » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2012, 06:48:28 AM »

I leave you lot for 5 minutes and you get back to mythology. :)

Quote
An interesting detail from the Lebor Gabála Érenn is that Fénius Farsaid is Scythian. A Scythian origin was also claimed in medieval times by the Picts and Scots of Scotland. Genetics give no support to this idea. Ancient DNA has shown that the Y-chromosome haplogroup predominant among the Scythians was R1a1a. The descendants of the Picts and Scots are notably high in subclades of R1b1b2. Linguistics gives no support to it either. The ancient Scythians spoke an Iranian language whose only similarity to the various Celtic languages of Britain lies in their shared Indo-European parentage. So whatever the origin of these ideas, the Celts of the British Isles do not descend from the people known in Classical times as Scythian......

An origin for the Picts in Scythia - a place so far distant - seemed so nonsensical that some commentators have assumed that Bede was confusing Scythia with Scandia. Yet the location of Scythia - north of the Black and Caspian Seas - was carefully described in sources available to Bede, including the Etymologies of Isidore of Seville. And an error by Bede could not explain the recurrence of the Scythians in origin myths of varied European peoples.

Scythia crops up again in the origin myth of the Franks. ... Where had this idea come from? The written sources these authors drew on would be those preserved by the Church, few of which had anything good to say about the pagan Scythians. Classical writers saw the Scythians as barbarians. There is no Scythian equivalent to Homer to wreathe them in glory. If we see the aim of origin stories as ancestor-glorification, attempts to concoct an origin from the ancient Greeks, Trojans or Romans are much more comprehensible. The Franks provide an example of that too, since the Liber Historiae Francorum of 727 claims that the Sicambri were originally defeated Trojans fleeing to a territory close to the River Don and Sea of Azov (in Scythia), before their journey north.

By contrast an origin in Scythia seems to offer little in the way of glory. Linguists and archaeologists have long pointed to the area north of the Black and Caspian Seas as the homeland of the Indo-European language family around 4,000-2,000 BC. This area was known as Scythia by the time of the Roman Empire. Yet it is hard to imagine that recollection of a journey taken thousands of years earlier could have survived orally for so long. There were later incursions into Central Europe from the steppe by the Cimmerians in the Iron Age, but Classical authors were so unaware of this movement that they even visualised one in the opposite direction. One largely lost Greek author, Poseidonius (c. 135-51 BC), is quoted by later writers as suggesting that the Cimbri, a tribe of northern Jutland who raided deep into southern Europe, reached the area north of the Black Sea, where they became known as Cimmerians.

Most curious of all is the tale of Odin in the Ynglinga Saga, part of the history of the kings of Norway written by the Icelandic poet Snorri Sturluson about 1225. Odin was the chief Norse god. Naturally we suppose that stories about the gods are set in a mythical realm. Yet the story of Odin is not only precise on geographical locations, but paints a picture of a man so revered that he was later worshipped as a god. This has set people wondering if there is some element of history to the tale, despite its weird and wonderful cladding, which includes giants and dragons. The story tells of Odin, chief of a country called Asaland, east of the River Don, which runs into the Black Sea.

European national origin stories

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Jean M
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2012, 06:54:33 AM »

Since I wrote that, I have started to wonder if this Scythian idea has something to do with the Bible, since Christian writers pegged the peoples of Europe as descendants of Japheth. The latter's brood as portrayed by the Bible are the Indo-Europeans who were known at that time to Near Eastern people: to the east were the Medes, to the north on the steppe ranged the Scythians and Cimmerians, while the Hellenes lay to the north-west in Greece, Ionia and Cyprus.
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