R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63

[bmattox]

Done. Also, the new Mattox is a cousin of mine who now lives in Mississippi. I knew of him before he was tested and this just confirms our relationship. Thanks.

[Mikewww]

Done. Also, the new Mattox is a cousin of mine who now lives in Mississippi. I knew of him before he was tested and this just confirms our relationship. Thanks.

Who are your closest matches other than your cousin? I'm having a hard time coming up with much in the L21 confirmed file.

[bmattox]

I have two more cousins who match with the Mattox/Maddox last name. At the 67 marker level there is William McKeich (five steps away, from Alexander McKeich, Scotland, 1755) and Michael Davis (seven steps away). At the 37 marker, I have Michael Perkins (four steps way, from Richard Perkins, Herefordshire, England 1695).

[Mikewww]

I have two more cousins who match with the Mattox/Maddox last name. At the 67 marker level there is William McKeich (five steps away, from Alexander McKeich, Scotland, 1755) and Michael Davis (seven steps away). At the 37 marker, I have Michael Perkins (four steps way, from Richard Perkins, Herefordshire, England 1695).

ahh! I shall look at the Perkins DNA project. It's one I didn't have on my list.

[rms2]

Got a new DF13- just now: Broom, kit N11946. There are two more Brooms in the R-L21 Plus Project, kits 12311 and 14194, that are close matches at 67 and beyond to him and each other, so they're all in category "B. L21+, DF13- (If you can, test for DF63 status)" on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now.

As far as I can tell, none of them can get his y line beyond North America.

I don't know how dependable what I found on the web is, but from what I saw Broom is supposed to be a surname that was brought to England by the Normans and was originally de la Brome and de Brom. Like I said, I don't know how reliable that is or if it even applies to this particular family.

[k.o.gran]

Got a new DF13- just now: Broom, kit N11946. There are two more Brooms in the R-L21 Plus Project, kits 12311 and 14194, that are close matches at 67 and beyond to him and each other, so they're all in category "B. L21+, DF13- (If you can, test for DF63 status)" on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now.

Fantastic! I contacted the Broom project admin and suggested DF13 testing based on Mikewww's variety X63-913, which is based on Roma's DF13- result. Looks like this variety is for real. The Broom project admin told me they would test for DF63 if the test came back DF13-. I'll send him an email straight away.

Mikewww: Well done! :)

-Kai

[rms2]

Got a new DF13- just now: Broom, kit N11946. There are two more Brooms in the R-L21 Plus Project, kits 12311 and 14194, that are close matches at 67 and beyond to him and each other, so they're all in category "B. L21+, DF13- (If you can, test for DF63 status)" on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now.

Fantastic! I contacted the Broom project admin and suggested DF13 testing based on Mikewww's variety X63-913, which is based on Roma's DF13- result. Looks like this variety is for real. The Broom project admin told me they would test for DF63 if the test came back DF13-. I'll send him an email straight away.

Mikewww: Well done! :)

-Kai

Good. I'm glad they're going to do the DF63 test.

[k.o.gran]

I don't know how dependable what I found on the web is, but from what I saw Broom is supposed to be a surname that was brought to England by the Normans and was originally de la Brome and de Brom. Like I said, I don't know how reliable that is or if it even applies to this particular family.

This is what they told me as well.

The chronicles of England show the early records of the name Broome to be derived from the Norman race. The name appears in England from about 1066 A.D.

... the first record of the name Broome was found in Kent where they had been granted lands by William the Conqueror for their assistance at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 A.D.

and

The surname Broome emerged as a notable family name in the county of Kent. The family name claims direct descendancy from the Earls of Anjou who changed their name to Broome after a pilgrimage to the crusades and the Holy Land. Fulk, Earl of Anjou, having worn a sprig of Broome as a symbol of humility took the name of the plant as his name. Fulk was father of Geoffrey Plantagenet. The first on record was Sir William de Broome, standard bearer to King Edward II of England, Thomas Brome was secretary to King Henry VI, and Henry Broome followed the Earl of Richmond and died in his cause at Bosworth.

Like you, I can not guarantee that this is correct, but there sure seems to be ties to the Normans.

-Kai

[rms2]

The Broom with the DF13- result has ordered DF63.

[k.o.gran]

The Broom with the DF13- result has ordered DF63.

They are very excited with the DF13- result. :)

Would the other Broom kits with close GD's to that kit be accepted to the L21 project, or do you require a L21 or downstream positive SNP result? I'm thinking as Mike imports them to his spreadsheet anyways, it would be easier to have them in the project.

-Kai

[rms2]

The Broom with the DF13- result has ordered DF63.

They are very excited with the DF13- result. :)

Would the other Broom kits with close GD's to that kit be accepted to the L21 project, or do you require a L21 or downstream positive SNP result? I'm thinking as Mike imports them to his spreadsheet anyways, it would be easier to have them in the project.

-Kai

They would be accepted, as long as they are all close matches to the tested Brooms.

Having whole families in the project can be a little clumsy to organize, but I don't mind.

[hamish]

Hello everyone,

A short introduction: my name is (Robert) Hamish Allan and my oldest known patrilineal ancestor is William Allan of Kilconquhar, Fife, Scotland (married 1760; birthdate unknown).

I've just tested DF13- and ordered a test for DF63.

We're Scots as far back as records go, but there's a potential French connection in a family legend that should probably be taken with a pinch of salt.

Looking forward to getting to know you all!

[erwangery]

Welcome aboard!

How many of us have been tested DF13- so far?

Erwan Gery
fN66966  DF63+

[k.o.gran]

Welcome aboard!

How many of us have been tested DF13- so far?

Erwan Gery
fN66966  DF63+

Hi Erwan!

I have in my notes 19 L21+, DF13- results whereof 2 + 4 have the have the same surname or a very close GD indicating an NPE. So 15 different surnames.

Of the 19, 4 are DF63-, 12 are DF63+ and 3 have no DF63 result. I know at least 2 of the 3 latter have ordered DF63 (one of them is Hamish who posted right before you).

-Kai (191950 - Lowden - DF63+)

[Mikewww]

I have in my notes 19 L21+, DF13- results whereof 2 + 4 have the have the same surname or a very close GD indicating an NPE. So 15 different surnames.

K.O., am I missing any?

Here are the 8 that are L21+ DF13- that either are or probably are DF63-

f208171   Allan   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   Scotland, Fife, Kilconquhar   L21+ DF13-   xx
f37201   Berry   R-L21**   X13 -unassigned   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield   L21+ DF13- DF63- L69- L192.1- 3c1g   15
f167223   LeBlanc   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne   L21+ DF13-   xx
f25304   Maddox   R-L21**   X13 -unassigned   France   L21+ DF13- DF63-   25
f26883   Tupper   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   England, South East, West Sussex, Bury   L21+ DF13-   xx
fN80403   Bishop   R-L21**   X13-1313   England, London   L21+ Z245+ L459+ DF13- DF63-   10
f94428   Meadows   R-L21**   X13-1313   UK   L21+ DF13- DF63-   7
f236395   zzzUnknown   R-L21**   X13-1313   England   L21+ DF13- DF63-   7

Maddox's GD is 25 @67 to the modal for the group above so we can see this is a diverse paragroup, not a single clade.  There is no single off-modal STR among all the people above.

Here's another three that cluster with them.

f99379   Edwards   R-L21   X13 -unassigned   Wales
f226438   Maddox   zzL21predicted   X13 -unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin
f176877   Wilson   zzL21predicted   X13-1313   zzzUnkOrigin

[Mikewww]

Here is my expected DF63+ roll call.  Am I missing any here?  The key to the "predicted" DF63 is a confirmation that a Broom is DF63+. That hasn't happened yet, has it?  I expecting the Broom's result because of the off-modals they match with confirmed DF63+ Roma, but that's a tenuous grouping so we should make sure to watch the Broom folks.

f180338   Chavez   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin   DF63+   17
fN72406   Darke   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   England, London   DF63+ 3c1g   21
f49976   Franklin   R-L21   X63 -unassigned   England   L21+   15
f54798   Franklin   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   England   DF63+   14
f174870   Franklin   R-L21*   X63 -unassigned   England   L21+ DF13-   15
f81528   Franklin   R-L21   X63 -unassigned   zzzUnkOrigin   L21+   13
fB2414   Franklin?   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   England   DF63+   xx
fN66966   Gery   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix   DF63+ L69- L319.1- 3c1g   25
f127090   LeBlanc   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   France   DF63+   19
f191950   Lowden   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee   DF63+ Z245+ L459+ L192.1-   15
f14713   Sutherland   R-L21/DF63   X63 -unassigned   Scotland, Lothian, Edinburgh   DF63+   14
f15536   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   England      0
f34193   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   Scotland      1
fN11946   Broom   R-L21*   X63-913   Scotland   L21+ DF13-   0
f154024   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   UK      1
f12311   Broom   R-L21   X63-913   UK   L21+   2
f14194   Broom   R-L21   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin   L21+   1
f47769   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      1
f156866   Broom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      2
f12380   Broome   zzL21predicted   X63-913   England      2
f208546   Hendrix   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      0
f158115   McBroom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   England      1
f112070   McBroom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   Scotland      1
f171640   McBroom   zzL21predicted   X63-913   zzzUnkOrigin      4
f232541   Roma   R-L21/DF63   X63-913   Spain   DF63+   12
f8042   Sims   R-L21   X63-913   UK   L21+   24
f59963   Sinclair   zzL21predicted   X63-913   Scotland      15

If the above holds, DF63 is not all young. Sims is another key guy to test.

[k.o.gran]

Hi Mike,

Here is my list:

DF13-, DF63-:
 37201 - Berry - England
N80403 - Bishop - England
 94428 - Meadows - USA
 25304 - Maddox - France

DF13-, DF63+:
191950 - Lowden - Scotland
N66966 - Gery - France
N72406 - Darke - England?
 54798 - Franklin - England
174870 - Franklin - England
 49976 - Franklin - England
 B2414 - (Franklin) - England
127090 - LeBlanc - France
167223 - LeBlanc - France
232541 - Roma - Spain?
 14713 - Sutherland - Scotland
180338 - Chavez - Spain

DF13-, DF63 unknown:
 26883 - Tupper - England
N11946 - Broom - England - DF63 ordered
208171 - Allan - Scotland - DF63 ordered


I've assumed that both LeBlancs are DF63, other than that, everything seems to match up. Broom's DF63 test will be batched today.

As there are so few L21** results, I suspect both DF13 and DF63 are really old.

-Kai

[Mark Jost]

As there are so few L21** results, I suspect both DF13 and DF63 are really old.

-Kai

Ok, I just ran my mod of MikeW's estimator with Ken's Gen111T  at 67 markers for the DF63's Use the Intraclade Founders for the True Age of DF63 .

YrsPerGen*   Count   IntraClade Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   VARP   SD
30   N=15   Clade A: DF63+ w/L21Prdctd  GA Coal.=   76.8   25.6   2,304.5   767.6   9.0   3.0
YrsPerGen*   Count   IntraClade Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   VARP   SD
30   N=683   Clade B: L21  GB Coal.=   127.7   33.0   3,829.9   989.6   15.0   3.9

Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   VAR   SD
GA=   82.3   26.5   2,469.1   794.6   3,263.7   9.7   3.1
Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   VAR   DP
GB=   127.8   33.0   3,835.5   990.3   4,825.8   15.0   3.9


67(56)Markers      Sheet  Mutation Rate:   0.11733   STRs not used: 385,389i,459,464,CDY
            
YrsPerGen*   TRUE MRCA   InterClade AB Founder   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   PooledVar   Pooled SD
30   Pooled SD   Interclade GAB: L21* for DF63+ w/L21Prdctd & L21   124.7   41.7   3,741.7   1,252.4   24.0   4.9


I used these HTs:

f180338   Chavez   R-L21/DF63
fN72406   Darke   R-L21/DF63
f49976   Franklin   R-L21
f54798   Franklin   R-L21/DF63
f174870   Franklin   R-L21*
f81528   Franklin   R-L21
fN66966   Gery   R-L21/DF63
f127090   LeBlanc   R-L21/DF63
f191950   Lowden   R-L21/DF63
f14713   Sutherland   R-L21/DF63
fN11946   Broom   R-L21*
f12311   Broom   R-L21
f14194   Broom   R-L21
f232541   Roma   R-L21/DF63
f8042   Sims   R-L21


MJost

[hamish]

Mike, may I ask how you came to consider me likely DF63- and Sims likely DF63+?

Here are the 8 that are L21+ DF13- that either are or probably are DF63-

f208171   Allan   R-L21*   X13 -unassigned   Scotland, Fife, Kilconquhar   L21+ DF13-   xx
...

Here is my expected DF63+ roll call.

...
f8042   Sims   R-L21   X63-913   UK   L21+   24
...

I ask because he and I form a reasonably tight STR cluster, at least at 37 markers...

[k.o.gran]

MJost:
Thank you for crunching the numbers. I believe the predicted age of DF63 will increase as we find more kits positive for it, but still, I wonder why there are so few L21** kits. There are some pending DF13 tests based on Alex Williamson's predictions, so I think we will know more in a months time.

Mike:
51598 - Franklin came in DF63+ recently. No surprise there. I'll ask him to join the L21 project.

-Kai

[Mark Jost]

Kai,

Yes the founders age may prove to extend further out with more haplotypes. So keep recruiting. I note that using 67 markers vs 111 appears that the smaller length and with the associated marker mutation rates cause the overall age to be even older than the 111 marker age.

Plus there maybe a SNP above DF63 looking at the age results.

MJost

[hamish]

Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.

Right now you are "tested up" with regard to SNPs. The only thing that might help further would be an upgrade to 111 markers. But that would be above and beyond the call of duty, so that's up to you.

I've got a DF63 on order and was considering the possibility of a negative result (which would put me in the same position as Mattox). What about L192.1? I gather we don't have anyone in the project positive for that -- do we know the haplotype at all?

[df.reynolds]

Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.

Right now you are "tested up" with regard to SNPs. The only thing that might help further would be an upgrade to 111 markers. But that would be above and beyond the call of duty, so that's up to you.

I've got a DF63 on order and was considering the possibility of a negative result (which would put me in the same position as Mattox). What about L192.1? I gather we don't have anyone in the project positive for that -- do we know the haplotype at all?

There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Note that it is positioned where it is in the tree due to lack of information; i.e., this is a sample that we do not know the DF13 status of.

--david

[hamish]

There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Thanks, David. I asked Thomas Krahn what public info was available and he said it was found in kit N11793. Is there any way we can find out more about that kit, to determine the haplotype?

[df.reynolds]

There has been only one L192.1+ result, and all we know about the result is that it is also L21+. L192.1 has been extensively tested and is almost certainly private.

Thanks, David. I asked Thomas Krahn what public info was available and he said it was found in kit N11793. Is there any way we can find out more about that kit, to determine the haplotype?

Son of a gun. N11793 (Ash) is in the L21 project and is R-L513*.
L193-, L21+, L23+, L49+, L513+, L706.2-, L908-, L909-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

L192 is right next to L193, so L192.1+ was probably recognized when Ash had the L193 test done; since he didn't actually order L192, it wouldn't show in his results.

Thanks Hamish!

--david