R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63

[Maliclavelli]

I am glad that Argiedude is going to be tested for DF13 and, if negative, for DF63. But I am asking why nobody tried to test these Kellaways or Westwood. Difficult to find Richter, tested by SMGF and put on ySearch by me, and Soncina, who never replied to my letters.

International 11
99973 Kellaway England R1b1a2
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17                                    
32501 Kellaway England R1b1
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17                                    
22356 Kelleway United Kingdom R1b1
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17                                    
Westwood
13 24 10 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 21 31 15-15-16-17 11 11 19 23 16 13 16 17 37 39 12 12
Richter
13 23 10 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19 23 16 14 12 14 13 11 11 13 24 10 13 12 30 24
Argiedude
13 25 10 11 11-11 13 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 31 15-15-17-17 10 12 19-23 15 14 18 16 38 38 11 12
Soncina
13 24 10 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-16 10 10 19-23 16 13 16 17 36 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 16 10 12 21 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

They have some marker values in common, not only DYS19=10, and some of them DYS385=11-11, but also the high value of DYS448, modal 19, a mutation to 18 in Richter and Maddox, but Argiedude 20 and Kellaway 21 which presuppose 20. Also the low value of DYS607 (14/13) is interesting.

I make you note that the unique so far found DF13- DF63- have the rare amongst R-L21 DYS19=13 and the very rare DYS388=13 and DYS426=11 (Argiedude 13):

Bb. L21* (DF13-, DF63-)
N80403 Thomas Bishop, c. 1770, London, England England R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 13 10 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 14 18 17 36-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 24-24 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
94428 Francis Meadows, b. c. 1754, Rockingham County, VA United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 13 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 14 18 17 36-38 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 24-24 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
236395 Thomas Bishop, born c. 1750 England R1b1a2
13 24 13 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 14 18 17 36-40 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 24-24 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
37201 John Berry d.1502 Almondbury, W.Yorks, England England R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 15 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 16 14 18 16 37-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                        
25304 JAMES Maddox b.c. 1715 FRANCE_James France R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 11 13-14 11 12 11 13 13 30 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 29 14-14-15-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12

[rms2]

Okay, Chavez is DF63+.

That's the last of our DF13- folks for now.

[Mark Jost]

Did I see it up to eight DF63+'s now?

[rms2]

Did I see it up to eight DF63+'s now?

That's right. Ten total, but you were observant to notice that there are two sets of close relatives.

DF63+ is growing.

[k.o.gran]

Okay, Chavez is DF63+.

That's the last of our DF13- folks for now.

I'm quite impressed that everyone we know of that is L21+/DF13- has tested for DF63. Didn't I put my money on Chavez being DF63+? ;-)

So far 33% of those tested DF13- are L21** and 67% are DF63+. I find the L21** group very interesting. It be very important in understading the origins of L21. However, with only four results, it's not very useful yet.

-Kai

[Maliclavelli]

His haplotype is worth a DF13-.  Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed?  Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.
[/quote]
Well, he has an L21+ test result, but I don't think there's ever been a second opinion on it.
[/quote]

Rich, I have written tons of letters about this and probably Mike remembers them very well.
About R-L21 I have said that in Italy it practically doesn’t exist, being many of the few found so far of French origin, above all the Piedmontese ones, and this demonstrates that all the migrations from Central Europe to Italy didn’t happen. But the case of Argiedude, whose ancestor came from Como (Italian Lake District), and now probably also Soncina and a few others, should have had some deepen exam, and I asked that before some Italian relatives of Argiedude were tested and also were clarified his link with Kellaway/Westwood. But, once demonstrated his Italian origin, his haplotype, so different from all the other R-L21-s, could be also the witness that also R-L21 was born in the Italian Refugium and were a remnant of the first people of this haplogroup born in the Italian Lake District. Of course the rarity of this haplogroup in Italy demonstrates that the migration was from Italy to Central-North Europe and that there wasn’t return. When I wrote on Rootsweb (before the end of 2007) I remembered the Amsbury Archer, who had drunk the Alpine water.

Why did Mike say that the test of Argiedude could be a proof in favour of my theories? Because, if he were R-L21**, he would demonstrate, once more, that Italy gets the most ancient haplotypes of every haplogroup, not only R1b1, R1b1a2, R-L23/L150-, R-L51, many R-P312, the whole R-U152, but also of the “not-Italian” R-L21.

[Mark Jost]

Did I see it up to eight DF63+'s now?

That's right. Ten total, but you were observant to notice that there are two sets of close relatives.

DF63+ is growing.

I wasnt that smart, I just searched the RL21 SNP report page and it showed only eight. lol

Which brings me to test the age of DF63 with 67 markers (Ages now seems to extend farther back than using 111 markers).

YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   LTSD   VAR
30   N=683   Clade A: L21 All  GA Coal.=   126.7   32.7   3,801.5   982.2   GA=   126.9   32.8   3,807.1   983.0   4,790.1   0.0   15.0

YrsPerGen*   Count   Coalescence Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP   + - YBP   Max   LTSD   VAR
30   N=8   Clade B: DF63+  GB Coal.=   85.9   27.0   2,577.6   808.8   GB=   98.2   28.8   2,945.8   864.6   3,810.4   0.0   10.2
67(56)Markers      Sheet  Mutation Rate:   0.11821


MJost

[rms2]

Rich, I have written tons of letters about this and probably Mike remembers them very well.
About R-L21 I have said that in Italy it practically doesn’t exist, being many of the few found so far of French origin, above all the Piedmontese ones, and this demonstrates that all the migrations from Central Europe to Italy didn’t happen. But the case of Argiedude, whose ancestor came from Como (Italian Lake District), and now probably also Soncina and a few others, should have had some deepen exam, and I asked that before some Italian relatives of Argiedude were tested and also were clarified his link with Kellaway/Westwood. But, once demonstrated his Italian origin, his haplotype, so different from all the other R-L21-s, could be also the witness that also R-L21 was born in the Italian Refugium and were a remnant of the first people of this haplogroup born in the Italian Lake District. Of course the rarity of this haplogroup in Italy demonstrates that the migration was from Italy to Central-North Europe and that there wasn’t return. When I wrote on Rootsweb (before the end of 2007) I remembered the Amsbury Archer, who had drunk the Alpine water.

Why did Mike say that the test of Argiedude could be a proof in favour of my theories? Because, if he were R-L21**, he would demonstrate, once more, that Italy gets the most ancient haplotypes of every haplogroup, not only R1b1, R1b1a2, R-L23/L150-, R-L51, many R-P312, the whole R-U152, but also of the “not-Italian” R-L21.

I don't know, Gioiello.

I think I tried to contact one of the Kellaways with 19=10 way back when argiedude got his L21+ result. I'll try again. From what I saw in Ysearch, if I remember rightly, some of them were saying the name was originally French, Caillouet, or something like that. It sounds or looks like a version of Callaway to me, though.

[Maliclavelli]

I don't know, Gioiello.
I think I tried to contact one of the Kellaways with 19=10 way back when argiedude got his L21+ result. I'll try again. From what I saw in Ysearch, if I remember rightly, some of them were saying the name was originally French, Caillouet, or something like that. It sounds or looks like a version of Callaway to me, though.

A French origin is likable, above all if they say this. In fact these Kallaways are totally different from the other Kallaways of the project and a French origin would be closer to the probable origin of the haplogroup. See also the French amongst the R-L21 (xDF13,DF63) I posted above:

25304 JAMES Maddox b.c. 1715 FRANCE_James France R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 11 13-14 11 12 11 13 13 30 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 29 14-14-15-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12

He is very different from the others.

[Maliclavelli]

The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.

[rms2]

The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.

You're right. The one with 19=10 and 385=11-11 is Ysearch GPYZW and lists England as place of origin. I'll email him.

[Maliclavelli]

The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.

Of course this is haplogroup G.

[rms2]

The Kallaway on ySearch, and who say to be of French origin, aren’t ours. Anyway look at this hapotype:

14 23 15 10 13-14 11 12 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11 11 23 16 21 29 13 14 14 14

Difficult to say which haplogroup it is. But it has some points of contact with our French R-L21 (xDF13,DF63).

Of course we should test it for a SNPs test, but this to say that there are many haplotypes which we don’t know and that will be able to say something fundamental in our researches.

Of course this is haplogroup G.

I was going from memory, and I knew I remembered seeing something connecting the name Caillouet with Kellaway. I just didn't recall the exact connection.

Now I have emailed the right Kellaway, though, the one with Ysearch GPYZW.

I don't think I got a response a couple of years ago when I wrote, but we'll see how things go this time.

[jerome72]

Since a few weeks, there is no more new result DF13-?

At the moment: 352 DF13+ (96,17%) et 14 DF13- (3,82%)

[rms2]

Since a few weeks, there is no more new result DF13-?

At the moment: 352 DF13+ (96,17%) et 14 DF13- (3,82%)

No. I've been hoping for some, but no new DF13- results lately.

[k.o.gran]

Since a few weeks, there is no more new result DF13-?

At the moment: 352 DF13+ (96,17%) et 14 DF13- (3,82%)

No. I've been hoping for some, but no new DF13- results lately.

I'm working on it, contacting people predicted by Mikewww and Alex Williamson to be DF13-. :-)

There are actually 16 DF13- results, atleast that I know of. But only 12 different surnames.

-Kai

[rms2]

Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

Every time I hear or see the surname Tupper, I think of a scene from the 1951 version of A Christmas Carol, which starred Alistair Sim as Ebenezer Scrooge. In the party scene at Scrooge's nephew's house, a young woman, mostly in jest, reproaches a young man with the line, "Mr. Tupper! You are incorrigible!" (or something very like that).

Don't know why that stuck with me, but it did. Well, I've seen that film probably a hundred times. That might be a factor. :-)

[k.o.gran]

Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

Woohoo! Another DF13- bringing the total to 17. Let's hope 23andMe had that L21+ result right. I'm starting to get paranoid after the Jones incident. I really hope he tests for DF63. And I really hope he tests positive for it as a DF63- result would leave L459 and Z245 and we could possibly have the same mess once again... ;-)

-Kai

[Mark Jost]

Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

26883 Tupper is he L21+ somewhere else as he hasnt tested positive even for P312?

MJost

[rms2]

Tupper, kit 26883, came up DF13- this morning. His mdka came from Sussex in England. Tupper joined the R-L21 Plus Project back in 2009 based on an L21+ result from 23andMe.

Another DF13- from the east side of England. Hmmm . . .

Hopefully, he'll test for DF63.

26883 Tupper is he L21+ somewhere else as he hasnt tested positive even for P312?

MJost

You missed the part in my post where I said he tested L21+ with 23andMe.

Tupper has ordered DF63.

[Mark Jost]

ahhhh i c.... whoops... Thanks.

MJost

[rms2]

ahhhh i c.... whoops... Thanks.

MJost

No problem. I do that kind of thing all the time, especially when I am in a hurry.

[bmattox]

Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

[rms2]

Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Hi, Bob.

If you click on his name on your Y-DNA Matches page, his profile will come up, including his email address. Please encourage him to join the R-L21 plus Project.

That's a very close match at 67 markers. Got to be a relative.

[Mikewww]

Colleagues, I just learned that there is another Maddox who recently received DNA test results. He is a match to me. His kit number is 226438. He has not submitted any information that I can find about him or his family tree? Is there a way to contact him? Thanks. Bob.

Bob, can you ask the Maddox project admin to turn on the Y DNA SNP report in the GAP tool under project administration / public web site / site configuration?