R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63

[rms2]

In the west, the emphatic presence of S145 [L21] appears to mirror mercantile contact. Distinctive pots known as maritime bell beakers were first made in the region around the River Tagus in Portugal and the tradition of bows and arrows in graves may also have originated there. By 2,500 BC, this cultural package had spread north to the Morbihan area of southern Brittany and the mouth of the Loire. This area became a centre of production and exchange not only for bell beakers but also other valuable items such as axes, flints, daggers and lance heads. From Morbihan/Loire the beakers filtered down the French river valleys to the Mediterranean coast and eastwards to northern Italy. To the north, contacts were made with Wessex, Ireland and Atlantic Scotland.

Now it appears that S145 also travelled these trading routes. The marker probably originated in southern France and northern Iberia and people carrying it came to Ireland and western Scotland. (The Scots: A Genetic Journey, by Alistair Moffat and James F. Wilson, page 89.)

Sounds good for our French and Spanish DF13-.

Our DF13- DF63- English sort of spoil the tidiness of it, however.

Still, we know that persons of British Isles ancestry far and away outnumber persons of continental ancestry in FTDNA's database.

Thoughts?

[rms2]

Mattox (Motteux) of France just got a DF63- result. So there's a Frenchman in the DF13- DF63- category now.

[bmattox]

Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.

[rms2]

Right now you are "tested up" with regard to SNPs. The only thing that might help further would be an upgrade to 111 markers. But that would be above and beyond the call of duty, so that's up to you.

[Mark Jost]

Hello everyone, I am the elusive Mattox/Maddox (France). I just learned today that I am DF63-. I am also DF13-. This is my first post on this forum. Is there another logical sequence of testing that would be beneficial for me to undertake or do we just wait to see the results of others testing this subclade. Thank you.

Hi BMattox(Maddox)

I am interested in what worldnames.publicprofiler.org/ is showing for both spellings of your surname. The latter(Maddox) has substantial UK presence and Mattox has a nice size core in then West Midlands. Any notes you could provide would be appreciated.

MJost

[bmattox]

Yes there appears to be a larger concentration of the name and it's derivatives in the Mid Lands, Wales and South East Ireland. The french connection comes for a letter received in 1920 and reads as follows:

Letter From Mark Maddox, 1920
Mark Maddox was born in February 1844 in Union County, NC. He died Dec. 21, 1929 in Warrenville, SC. Mark was the son of John Maddox, prior to his death a granddaughter asked him several questions about the origin of the family. Mark was the son of John Maddox, born 1805 in Lancaster County, SC; died 1876 in Covington, Ga. John was the son of Samuel Maddox, 1775-1850, who resided in Lancaster SC and Union County, NC.
Questions and Answers:
Where did the Maddoxes come from? France.
What is the name of the one farthest back you know of? My great grandfather’s name was Jim Maddox.
Who did he marry? Don’t know.
Where did his wife come from? France.
What was the name of your grandfather who fought in the Revolution? Samuel Maddox.
Did the Maddoxes first come from France when your great grandfather Jim Maddox, settled in Yorktown, Va. in 1767? Yes.
Do you know what pat of France they came from? No.
Or why they left? Was it religion? They came here to go to Canada but about that time England taken Canada from France and they just settled in Yorktown.
Do you know what ship they came in or where they landed? At Yorktown on the York River. Don’t know ship name.
What was your father’s name? John Maddox.

As you can see all the names are Anglicized, which has proven very confusing as to the French connection. Anyway, those are his words and that is what I am basing the French Connection on for lack of refutatory evidence to the contrary.

[rms2]

Bob,

You mentioned the surname Motteux to me, which was one of the French Huguenot surnames at Manakin Town in Virginia, as I recall.

[rms2]

I'm not trying to make a case for France, but it is interesting that Berry is also one of our DF13- DF63- guys, and at least one source, The Huguenots of Devonshire, by Inkerman Rogers, lists Berry as a surname brought to England by French Huguenots.

http://lerhistory.tripod.com/devhugs2.html

Of course, our Berry lists an mdka in Yorkshire, so perhaps it is a different Berry family, but it's worth considering.

[bmattox]

Yes, there was a Benjamin Motteux that arrived in Charleston, SC in 1724. From the book "North American Wills Registered in London, 1611-1857":

Benjamin Motteux of London, jeweller, but late of SC, bachelor. Will 1 Jan. 1724 pr. 14 Dec. 1725 by brother John Anthony Motteux of London, merchant.

It was common for wills to be drawn up prior to ones departure to the Americas. This Motteux family has it's heritage based in Rouen, France and they were Huguenots who left there for London in the late 17ty century. However, I have no verifiable evidence for this connection.

There is another connection in 1714 but does not match the letter of Mark Maddox:

Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
about Wm Mattock
Name:   Wm Mattock
Year:   1714
Place:   Virginia
Source Publication Code:   6223
Primary Immigrant:   Mattock, Wm
Annotation:   Abstracts of Virginia Land Office patent books 9 through 14, covering the early decades of the eighteenth century. Includes numerous references to land patented by "French refugees," the Protestants (Huguenots) who fled France after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes.
Source Bibliography:   NUGENT, NELL MARION, abstractor. Cavaliers and Pioneers: Abstracts of Virginia Land Patents and Grants. Vol. 3: 1695-1732. Richmond [VA]: Virginia State Library, 1979. 578p. Indexed.

[rms2]

Hey!

I finally heard from argiedude, Ysearch X56RP.

He has ordered DF13. Given his bizarre haplotype and his ancestral origin in northern Italy, this should be interesting.

care to guess how it will come out?

[Mark Jost]

Wow, great info BobM. Thanks for the overview. It is interesting what information is available to help nail down family history. Thanks.

MJost

[Mikewww]

Hey!

I finally heard from argiedude, Ysearch X56RP.

He has ordered DF13. Given his bizarre haplotype and his ancestral origin in northern Italy, this should be interesting.

care to guess how it will come out?

His haplotype is worth a DF13-.  Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed?  Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.

[rms2]

Hey!

I finally heard from argiedude, Ysearch X56RP.

He has ordered DF13. Given his bizarre haplotype and his ancestral origin in northern Italy, this should be interesting.

care to guess how it will come out?

His haplotype is worth a DF13-.  Has he ever had his L21 test confirmed?  Maybe he'll prove Maliclavelli right.

Well, he has an L21+ test result, but I don't think there's ever been a second opinion on it.

He gave the go ahead to test him for DF63 if he gets a DF13- result.

[k.o.gran]

I've contacted two people and suggested DF13 testing based on Alex Williamson's new phylogenetic trees for the L21 project. They are both in varieties with Irish people in them, so it will be interesting to see the result if they agree to test.

-Kai

[rms2]

So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

[rms2]

So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

As a kind of aside, I want to say that waiting for dna test results drives me bonkers, whether it's my own or in cases like this in which I am interested.

The last few days FTDNA hasn't posted that many SNP test results. It's really aggravating (but I'm not blaming them).

Phew! (Shaking my head.)

Hopefully, we'll get a bunch to talk about this evening.

[k.o.gran]

So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

As a kind of aside, I want to say that waiting for dna test results drives me bonkers, whether it's my own or in cases like this in which I am interested.

The last few days FTDNA hasn't posted that many SNP test results. It's really aggravating (but I'm not blaming them).

Phew! (Shaking my head.)

Hopefully, we'll get a bunch to talk about this evening.

I know the feeling! Roma was one of the first DF13- results, and I believe he ordered DF63 the same week... Still no result. What I remind myself is that we've been spoiled by having SNP results come long before their due date for a long time. There are lots of results I'm waiting for, and it's usually the first thing I check in the morning (the results get posted while I'm asleep, as I'm living in Europe).

-Kai

[rms2]

So far, we have had over forty Irish DF13 results, all positive, but we still have a lot of Irish guys who have not tested for DF13. I'm not including all the Irish guys in the DF13+ subclades already.

And we have some more Irish guys awaiting DF13 results. Maybe a negative or two will show up.

As a kind of aside, I want to say that waiting for dna test results drives me bonkers, whether it's my own or in cases like this in which I am interested.

The last few days FTDNA hasn't posted that many SNP test results. It's really aggravating (but I'm not blaming them).

Phew! (Shaking my head.)

Hopefully, we'll get a bunch to talk about this evening.

I know the feeling! Roma was one of the first DF13- results, and I believe he ordered DF63 the same week... Still no result. What I remind myself is that we've been spoiled by having SNP results come long before their due date for a long time. There are lots of results I'm waiting for, and it's usually the first thing I check in the morning (the results get posted while I'm asleep, as I'm living in Europe).

-Kai

Lately they've been posting them while I'm asleep, too, and I live on the eastern coast of the USA.

It used to be the results would start appearing about 1800 my time, but lately that's not happening.

[df.reynolds]

Pere Roma just showed up as DF63+

[Mikewww]

Pere Roma just showed up as DF63+

Very cool. I'll update the L21 file while I watch the game. I just scraped through the Cumberland Gap project. It's pretty good sized.

[rms2]

Pere Roma just showed up as DF63+

Very cool. I'll update the L21 file while I watch the game. I just scraped through the Cumberland Gap project. It's pretty good sized.

Sutherland got a DF63+, too, so both of our Scot DF13- are DF63+.

[rms2]

A number of guys got moved to the DF13+ category, including Bernard.

No Irish DF13- yet, although a few Irish guys went DF13+ this evening.

[df.reynolds]

No Irish DF13- yet, although a few Irish guys went DF13+ this evening.

Be kind of convenient if it stayed that way! :)

--david

[rms2]

No Irish DF13- yet, although a few Irish guys went DF13+ this evening.

Be kind of convenient if it stayed that way! :)

--david

Yes, it would.

Our potential Welsh L21- Z245+ L459+ is enough to worry about! :-)

[k.o.gran]

Finally, some new results!

229805 Bøen came back as DF13+, giving variety X63-1011 a shot to the bow. But at least now we know. :)
Still waiting for the results for Broom.

-Kai