World Families Forums - R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 17, 2014, 04:38:27 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 15 Go Down Print
Author Topic: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63  (Read 33066 times)
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #175 on: July 28, 2012, 08:39:31 PM »

The indications seem to be that DF13 negative on the continent corresponds with the general L21 hotpots down from NW France to the Pyrenees and is incredibly rare elsewhere.  As per usual the few hits in Britain have to be seen in light of the gigantic bias in testing towards British heritage folks and the telling statistic is the numbers of DF 13 per number tested (i.e. percentage) in a given area.  Simple totals tell us nothing.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #176 on: July 28, 2012, 10:40:46 PM »

The indications seem to be that DF13 negative on the continent corresponds with the general L21 hotpots down from NW France to the Pyrenees and is incredibly rare elsewhere.  As per usual the few hits in Britain have to be seen in light of the gigantic bias in testing towards British heritage folks and the telling statistic is the numbers of DF 13 per number tested (i.e. percentage) in a given area.  Simple totals tell us nothing.

I think one total that may be telling us something is the absence of DF13- in Ireland, and in the western part of the Isles in general, thus far. So far, the westernmost DF13- result in the British Isles is that of Berry, whose ancestor came from Almondbury in West Yorkshire.

The two Scots are both from the east coast: Sutherland from Caithness and Lowden from Dundee.

If Jones is confirmed as L21- Z245+ L459+, that will be something to chew on. I get the feeling that's going to fall through, but, of course, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 10:42:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

df.reynolds
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 126


« Reply #177 on: July 29, 2012, 01:58:03 AM »

...
If Jones is confirmed as L21- Z245+ L459+, that will be something to chew on. I get the feeling that's going to fall through, but, of course, I could be wrong.

I wasn't particularly optimistic initially, but a post from Mark Jost made think this is more likely than I originally thought.

--david
Logged
jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #178 on: July 29, 2012, 07:41:39 AM »

To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G
Logged
k.o.gran
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #179 on: July 29, 2012, 07:54:15 AM »

To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Nice map! The ones you're missing are (if we ignore those with the same surname):
N72406 - Darke - England
54798 - Franklin - England

All 14 that I know of are listed here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=ysnp
Just search for DF13-.

I'm hoping to see more DF13- results soon. It is very unfortunate that DF13 is not included in Geno 2.0. :-/

-Kai
Logged

R-DF63+
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #180 on: July 29, 2012, 08:21:30 AM »

To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Excellent map.

Kai mentioned Darke and Franklin. Neither lists a specific, mappable location for his most distant y-dna ancestor, so I can see why you don't have them on your map.

Logged

jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #181 on: July 29, 2012, 08:37:26 AM »

To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Nice map! The ones you're missing are (if we ignore those with the same surname):
N72406 - Darke - England
54798 - Franklin - England
Thanks!
I added Franklin, but not Darke because there are no details about his origine country
Logged
k.o.gran
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2012, 08:40:59 AM »

To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

Nice map! The ones you're missing are (if we ignore those with the same surname):
N72406 - Darke - England
54798 - Franklin - England
Thanks!
I added Franklin, but not Darke because there are no details about his origine country

I have England as location for Darke in my notes. That comes from the L21 Yahoo group. But I don't have a specific location as Rich correctly points out.

-Kai
Logged

R-DF63+
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2012, 08:53:20 AM »

Both Darke and Franklin are Americans. I don't think either of them knows where in England his ancestor came from.

They're probably like me in that way. I'm pretty sure my immigrant ancestor came from England or Wales, but I can't say who he was or where exactly he was from, so I list "Unknown" for national origin.

As far as I know, my y-dna 3rd great grandfather and his brothers just magically appeared in the vicinity of Pittsburgh in the first decade of the 19th century. Pop! Pop! Pop! And there they were.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 08:55:39 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #184 on: July 29, 2012, 09:14:50 AM »

To better visualize things, I created a map with the DF13-
I could locate only 10.
All accuracy or correction is welcome!
http://goo.gl/maps/wA2G

We must also remember that each continental dot is worth about 100 on the isles when you take into account origins of people testing (I think that was the figure when we last discussed this.  So each dot on France and the Pyrennees etc is massively more significant than those in Britain.  The map shows the basic pattern but the emphasis is incrediby misleading.  As far as I can tell a vastly higher proportion of L21 in places like western France are coming up DF 13 negative. 

As for why its in the eastern part of the isles but the Atlantic part of the continent, perhaps that is indicative that L21 first spread into the east of Britain and that western L21 is a subset/founder effect that lost the DF13 negative element.  Other possibilities are that the Normans (and allies) were involved in moving the Atlantic continental DF13 negative element into eastern Britain.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #185 on: July 29, 2012, 09:45:25 AM »

Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.

(If Jones of Wales turns out to be really be L21- Z245+ L459+, what then? Of course, we will need many more such results to be able to say anything definite.)
Logged

Mark Jost
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707


« Reply #186 on: July 29, 2012, 10:06:05 AM »

Nice map Jerome72. Interestingly, I have a question about Gery's location. Since he was adopted, was this his birth location or was he a transplanted child?

Morlaix, France
Dernière mise à jour il y a 2 heures par jerome.HAMON2
Ancêtre: Gery, enfant adopté
DF63+

MJost
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #187 on: July 29, 2012, 10:14:14 AM »

Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.


P312 * (without L21 or U152) is rare in Ireland, isn't it?
 Perhaps there is a correlation between P312* and DF13-?
Logged
jerome72
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #188 on: July 29, 2012, 10:16:27 AM »

Nice map Jerome72. Interestingly, I have a question about Gery's location. Since he was adopted, was this his birth location or was he a transplanted child?

Morlaix, France
Dernière mise à jour il y a 2 heures par jerome.HAMON2
Ancêtre: Gery, enfant adopté
DF63+

MJost

I think RMS2 will respond better than me!
I took the info on the map L21: http://goo.gl/maps/TMmy
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #189 on: July 29, 2012, 10:22:33 AM »

Nice map Jerome72. Interestingly, I have a question about Gery's location. Since he was adopted, was this his birth location or was he a transplanted child?

Morlaix, France
Dernière mise à jour il y a 2 heures par jerome.HAMON2
Ancêtre: Gery, enfant adopté
DF63+

MJost

His father was born there, and it was his father who was the adopted child. Gery is a French citizen.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #190 on: July 29, 2012, 10:26:10 AM »

Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.


P312 * (without L21 or U152) is rare in Ireland, isn't it?
 Perhaps there is a correlation between P312* and DF13-?

It is relatively rare, at least based on Busby's statistics and what we have seen in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. It is very rare among those with Gaelic Irish surnames.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #191 on: July 29, 2012, 10:42:51 AM »

Thus far, Ireland and the west of Britain are solidly DF13+. That would seem to eliminate those areas as candidates for the Urheimat of L21.


P312 * (without L21 or U152) is rare in Ireland, isn't it?
 Perhaps there is a correlation between P312* and DF13-?

It is relatively rare, at least based on Busby's statistics and what we have seen in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. It is very rare among those with Gaelic Irish surnames.

I want to qualify my statement about P312* and Busby's figures somewhat.

There were four Irish sample locations in Busby in which the frequency of P312* was over 10%. Two of those were in locations of fairly heavy historical period settlement, Northern Ireland and Eastern Ireland. The other two were "Ireland South" and "Ireland Southwest".

The problem with all four locations is that the sample sizes were just too small. The sample size of "East Ireland" was just 16. That for "North Ireland" was 21. "Ireland South" and "Ireland Southwest" were 24 and 22, respectively.

All four of those samples came from Myres et al and were not original to Busby. I think Myres' focus was on something other than P312.

None of Busby's Irish samples yielded a P312* frequency higher than 8%.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:44:57 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707


« Reply #192 on: July 29, 2012, 10:43:11 AM »

Ok, just checking the infomation as Brittany location thanks.
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #193 on: August 01, 2012, 03:10:17 AM »

Finally I received an answer from FTDNA:
Quote
Thank you for your email. I apologize for the delay. The lab has had some difficulty processing the DF13 SNP for your sample. We are in the process of re-testing now. If everything goes well on this attempt, your results should be ready within about 2 to 3 weeks. We appreciate your patience.
Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #194 on: August 01, 2012, 06:25:11 AM »

Finally I received an answer from FTDNA:
Quote
Thank you for your email. I apologize for the delay. The lab has had some difficulty processing the DF13 SNP for your sample. We are in the process of re-testing now. If everything goes well on this attempt, your results should be ready within about 2 to 3 weeks. We appreciate your patience.

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
Logged

secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #195 on: August 01, 2012, 07:51:36 AM »

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!
Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #196 on: August 01, 2012, 08:10:33 AM »

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I hope you have a wonderful vacation. One week without internet is probably a good thing.

Maybe you should take some y-dna kits with you and collect samples there? ;-)
Logged

Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #197 on: August 01, 2012, 08:13:54 AM »

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I'm in the Lot at the moment, weather gorgeous :)
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #198 on: August 01, 2012, 08:20:05 AM »

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I'm in the Lot at the moment, weather gorgeous :)


Must be nice.

I've spent my entire summer thus far installing hardwood floors in my house, including the stairs, and working like a dog. I just finished a couple of days ago.

My wife and daughter are leaving tomorrow for Russia and Ukraine and will be gone for a month.

It'll just be me and the dog here.
Logged

Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #199 on: August 01, 2012, 09:41:10 AM »

Hopefully the result will come even sooner.

Maybe you will be DF13-?
I hope, nevertheless I go on vacation next week in Perigord: one week without internet!

I'm in the Lot at the moment, weather gorgeous :)


Must be nice.

I've spent my entire summer thus far installing hardwood floors in my house, including the stairs, and working like a dog. I just finished a couple of days ago.

My wife and daughter are leaving tomorrow for Russia and Ukraine and will be gone for a month.

It'll just be me and the dog here.

Sorry to here you won't be able to holiday with your family this year, but I suppose at least you'll get a little peace.

It's lovely here, not even raining which took a little getting used to :)
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 15 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.134 seconds with 19 queries.