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Author Topic: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63  (Read 33566 times)
jerome72
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« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2012, 11:20:06 AM »

Yesterday witnessed yet more DF13+ results: one from France (with a German surname and ancestry in Alsace), one from Spain, one from the Czech Republic, and one from Norway. The one from Norway appears to have the Scots Modal haplotype (or close) and lots of fairly close Scottish matches at 67 markers.

One thing we can say for sure within L21: DF13 is big.

The tests DF13 for the European of the center and east are going to be interressant.
For my part, I think that L21 was born and it is developed in France.
The continuation will say it to us, maybe...
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2012, 12:01:08 PM »

Yesterday witnessed yet more DF13+ results: one from France (with a German surname and ancestry in Alsace), one from Spain, one from the Czech Republic, and one from Norway. The one from Norway appears to have the Scots Modal haplotype (or close) and lots of fairly close Scottish matches at 67 markers.

One thing we can say for sure within L21: DF13 is big.

The tests DF13 for the European of the center and east are going to be interressant.
For my part, I think that L21 was born and it is developed in France.
The continuation will say it to us, maybe...

Well I would agree.  It also looks like its the western half of France and also the Pyrennees.  I would still feel L21 originated as one guy passing from the upper reaches of Loire in SE France (somewhere like Saint-Ettiene and heading up the river as far as the Atlantic then spreading from there up and down the Atlantic coast of France.  It may have moved into the Seine system too That is how I would tend to interpret the totality of the evidence we have although there are other alternatives such as it moving alonng the Rhine then into the Mosselle and then into the northern French river systems.     
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rms2
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« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2012, 10:00:57 PM »

Some of his descendants would become Voyageurs in what is now Canada. That is the image that popped into my head when you spoke of "one guy passing from the upper reaches of Loire in SE France (somewhere like Saint-Ettiene) and heading up the river as far as the Atlantic", and, since a fair number of French-Canadians are R-L21, it seemed appropriate.

Anyway, I agree with what you and Jerome wrote.

What is especially heartening is that the DF13 results are still coming in well ahead of schedule.

Now I am daring to believe that mine might even be in by the end of this week. I expect to see a plus sign, but you never know.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 10:13:35 PM by rms2 » Logged

k.o.gran
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« Reply #103 on: July 19, 2012, 04:12:34 AM »

DF63 has been added to the ISOGG tree as "R1b1a2a1a1b3b". :-)

-Kai
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« Reply #104 on: July 19, 2012, 06:09:27 AM »

Some of his descendants would become Voyageurs in what is now Canada. That is the image that popped into my head when you spoke of "one guy passing from the upper reaches of Loire in SE France (somewhere like Saint-Ettiene) and heading up the river as far as the Atlantic", and, since a fair number of French-Canadians are R-L21, it seemed appropriate.

Anyway, I agree with what you and Jerome wrote.

What is especially heartening is that the DF13 results are still coming in well ahead of schedule.

Now I am daring to believe that mine might even be in by the end of this week. I expect to see a plus sign, but you never know.

Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
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« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2012, 06:22:01 AM »

DF63 has been added to the ISOGG tree as "R1b1a2a1a1b3b". :-)

-Kai

Cool! That's quick work.
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rms2
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« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2012, 06:54:28 AM »


Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.

I think L21 was probably born in France, but accounting for all of its subclades is another matter.

L21 haplotype variance also suggests that L21 is oldest in France, but I must say I have far less faith in haplotype variance than I used to. A desirable destination, like North America, for example, can receive so much input from various regions in which a haplogroup is found that its variance becomes inflated. Honestly, I suspect that might be the case with the British Isles (including Ireland) and L21. L21 there appears older than it should, although it is still younger looking than in France, because the British Isles were a magnet for L21 from the Continent. That is my guess, anyway.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2012, 08:14:44 AM »


Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.

I think L21 was probably born in France, but accounting for all of its subclades is another matter.

L21 haplotype variance also suggests that L21 is oldest in France, but I must say I have far less faith in haplotype variance than I used to. A desirable destination, like North America, for example, can receive so much input from various regions in which a haplogroup is found that its variance becomes inflated. Honestly, I suspect that might be the case with the British Isles (including Ireland) and L21. L21 there appears older than it should, although it is still younger looking than in France, because the British Isles were a magnet for L21 from the Continent. That is my guess, anyway.

The last time I ran variance using Mike's spreadsheet, L21 "All" showed highest variance in Ireland. Does that change when downstream markers are taken into account?
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« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2012, 08:17:49 AM »


Does that idea suggest most subclades of L21 were hatched in France? I'm not totally convinced of that. I am still holding out for an L21 home east of France.

I think L21 was probably born in France, but accounting for all of its subclades is another matter.

L21 haplotype variance also suggests that L21 is oldest in France, but I must say I have far less faith in haplotype variance than I used to. A desirable destination, like North America, for example, can receive so much input from various regions in which a haplogroup is found that its variance becomes inflated. Honestly, I suspect that might be the case with the British Isles (including Ireland) and L21. L21 there appears older than it should, although it is still younger looking than in France, because the British Isles were a magnet for L21 from the Continent. That is my guess, anyway.

The last time I ran variance using Mike's spreadsheet, L21 "All" showed highest variance in Ireland. Does that change when downstream markers are taken into account?

I'm not sure. Last I heard from Mike, L21 variance was highest in France. Klyosov said the same thing, but it's been awhile.

Thus far, Ireland has been solidly DF13+: not a single DF13- result.
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« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2012, 08:21:40 AM »

I just bumped into a guy in my "cluster" (such as it is) who has already tested DF13+: Cooper, kit 57563, Ysearch 4BN3G. We're 11 off at 67 markers, but we share the same off-modal values (or most of them, anyway).

So now I am pretty sure I'll be DF13+.

I'm a little disappointed. I was kind of hoping for a DF13- result, since that is less common.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2012, 01:59:11 PM »

ok 2nd posting try.

(edit: ok i just realized these number are from 37 marker panel using 22only. I will try and rerun them at 67.)

DF13+ Xsubclades Xpredicted Subclade 67 markers
 
If we agree that L21 is about 3.7K to 4K YBP and, since I ran the DF13+xSubclades and XPredicted Subclades in Gen111T,  the age difference was about 450 yrs@30 yr gen's,.
 
And considering that the Modal of L21 and DF13+x's has the same modal with only DYS 449=30 using 111 markers set with N=47. The mean HT for this set had 464c=-1, CYDa=+1, 413a=-1, 481+1 and 712=+1 all fast expect 413a which is medium speed mutator.
 
In the DF13+xSubcladesXPredicted Subclades using the 67 marker (calc on 59 37 Markers) set of Hts, the off modals are DYS391=-1 (Most by the 60 or so Scots and 1511-A's other wise would be modal), so I split the list in to four camps,  1) Scots only, 2) 1511's, 3) 9919's and 4) all others.
 
Cluster 1) Scots Only n=29
DYS391=10 + -1
389ii-i=17 +1
458=18 +1
GataH4=12 +1
YCAIIb=24 +1
456=15 -1
531=12 +1
413a=22 -1
444=11 -1

Cluster 2) 1511's Only n=17
DYS391=10 + -1
385b=15 +1
439=11 -1
447=24 -1
449=29 -1
456=15 -1
CDYa=35 -1
442=13 +1
565=11 -1
 
Cluster 3) 9919's Only n=13
459b=9 -1
YCAIIb=19 -4*
CDYa=36 -1
CDYb=40 +2
640=12 +1
 
Cluster 4) All others n=39  has three off modals from L21
DYS449=29
464c=16
CDYb 39

Using Gen111T calculations
 
Clusters Main Geo locations
1) 1030's Scotland ---- TMRCA 65 Gen
2) 1511's Ire-Munst ---- TMRCA 45 Gen
3) 9919's Eng-Ulstr ---- TMRCA 78 Gen
4) Remaining HT'ss Isles =
     UK mix England, Ireland-Ulster, Scotland, Wales ---- TMRCA 110 Gen
 
1) 1030's Scotland
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=29 DF13> 1030-A GA coal= 65.1 1,952.2 GA= 74.2 2,227.3
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5
                
59 37 Markers      
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 137.2 4,117.0    

 
2) 1511's Ire-Munst
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=16 DF13> 1511 GA coal= 45.0 1,351.0 GA= 50.9 1,525.6
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5
                
59 37 Markers   
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 122.1 3,661.8    

 
3) 9919's Eng-Ulstr
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=13 DF13> 9919 GA coal= 78.4 2,351.0 GA= 106.9 3,206.5
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5

 
4) Remaining HT'ss Isles =
     UK mix England, Ireland-Ulster, Scotland, Wales
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=41 DF13> Remaining GA coal= 110.0 3,301.4 GA= 119.1 3,572.1
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 109.1 3,272.1 GB= 116.1 3,482.5
                
59 37 Markers       
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 153.8 4,613.1    

MJost

Edit typo in both DYS391 to a minus 1
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:51:15 PM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2012, 03:39:42 PM »

ok 2nd posting try.

DF13+ Xsubclades Xpredicted Subclade 67 markers
 
If we agree that L21 is about 3.7K to 4K YBP and, since I ran the DF13+xSubclades and XPredicted Subclades in Gen111T,  the age difference was about 450 yrs@30 yr gen's,.
 
And considering that the Modal of L21 and DF13+x's has the same modal with only DYS 449=30 using 111 markers set with N=47. The mean HT for this set had 464c=-1, CYDa=+1, 413a=-1, 481+1 and 712=+1 all fast expect 413a which is medium speed mutator.
 
In the DF13+xSubcladesXPredicted Subclades using the 67 marker set of Hts, the off modals are DYS391=-1 (Most by the 60 or so Scots and 1511-A's other wise would be modal), so I split the list in to four camps,  1) Scots only, 2) 1511's, 3) 9919's and 4) all others.
 

I can't imagine any scenario where L21 is not at least as old as British/Irish Bell Beakers.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:41:32 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2012, 03:55:07 PM »

I've updated the R-L21 descendancy tree chart. It's in the Yahoo Group forum and here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-L21.jpg

I've tried to add the ending digits/letters from the ISOGG haplogroup labels into the correct SNP boxes.  ISOGG has done a great job of keeping up with all of the changes.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thank you to all of the researchers and thank you to ISOGG.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:56:24 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2012, 04:12:06 PM »

I've updated the R-L21 descendancy tree chart. It's in the Yahoo Group forum and here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-L21.jpg

I've tried to add the ending digits/letters from the ISOGG haplogroup labels into the correct SNP boxes.  ISOGG has done a great job of keeping up with all of the changes.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thank you to all of the researchers and thank you to ISOGG.

Thanks Mike. Just one thing - there seems to be a couple of extra letters in the FTDNA Hg designation for L21 in the diagram.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2012, 05:15:19 PM »

I've updated the R-L21 descendancy tree chart. It's in the Yahoo Group forum and here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/Haplogroup_Tree_Chart_R-L21.jpg

I've tried to add the ending digits/letters from the ISOGG haplogroup labels into the correct SNP boxes.  ISOGG has done a great job of keeping up with all of the changes.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Thank you to all of the researchers and thank you to ISOGG.

Thanks Mike. Just one thing - there seems to be a couple of extra letters in the FTDNA Hg designation for L21 in the diagram.

Good catch. I fixed it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:41:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2012, 06:04:15 PM »

Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.

L21** = L21+ DF13- DF63-
f37201   Berry   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   England, London

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin

DF13* = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255-
fN59178   Carroll   Ireland
f16114   MacLea   Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f196158   Rickwood  England, East, Suffolk, Mildenhall
fN33209   Whidden    England
f148326   zzzUnk(Ross)  zzzUnkOrigin

This group of DF13* should grow. Not many DF13+ people have tested for DF49.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 06:04:39 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2012, 06:29:52 PM »

DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
Mike, shouldn't L96- be on the DF13** list?

--david
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2012, 06:59:00 PM »


(edit: ok i just realized these number are from 37 marker panel using 22only. I will try and rerun them at 67.)

DF13+ Xsubclades Xpredicted Subclade 67 markers
 

Re: DF13+ Xsubclade Data


Ok, I  re-ran Gen111T mod to 67 markers for the three main clusters and the remainder..
 
DF13+XSubcladesXPredicted subclades n=95 at 67 markers using 59 STRs
 
Vs L21 All
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+xSub&Pred All GA coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GA= 132.8 3,983.2
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 160.3 4,808.6    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=29 1030's   GA coal= 56.6 1,699.0 GA= 63.6 1,907.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 137.4 4,121.5    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=16 1511's  GA coal= 41.8 1,255.1 GA= 46.5 1,395.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 120.6 3,617.7    

 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=12 9919's  GA coal= 103.0 3,089.5 GA= 129.0 3,870.3
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 276.6 8,299.0    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=38 All remaining  GA coal= 115.3 3,458.0 GA= 124.0 3,720.0
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=2647 L21 All GB coal= 129.8 3,893.8 GB= 146.1 4,384.1
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 160.6 4,819.1    

 
Vs DF13+XSubXPredictedSubclades.
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=38 All remaining  GA coal= 115.3 3,458.0 GA= 124.0 3,720.0
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 153.7 4,610.0    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=29 1030's GA coal= 56.6 1,699.0 GA= 63.6 1,907.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 128.0 3,839.3    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=16 1511's GA coal= 41.8 1,255.1 GA= 46.5 1,395.8
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 109.1 3,273.3    

 
 
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=12 9919's GA coal= 103.0 3,089.5 GA= 129.0 3,870.3
YrsPerGen* Count AGE Generations YBP Founder Generations YBP
30 N=95 DF13+XSubXPredictSub  GB coal= 118.5 3,556.3 GB= 132.8 3,983.2
                
59/67 Markers        
TMRCA   Founder Generations YBP    
30   GAB= 267.7 8,030.7    


Using Gen111T calculations 67 Markers
 
Clusters Main Geo locations
1) 1030's Scotland ---- Founder GA= TMRCA 57 Gen (1,908 yrs30)
2) 1511's Ire-Munst ----  Founder GA= TMRCA 47 Gen (1,396 yrs30)
3) 9919's Eng-Ulstr ----  Founder GA= TMRCA 129 Gen (3,870 yrs30)
4) Remaining HT'ss Isles =
     UK mix England, Ireland-Ulster, Scotland, Wales ----  Founder GA= TMRCA 118 Gen (3,720 yrs30)

Three appears to be the oldest cluster
 
 
Signed
Dag Nab it
 
MJost

« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 12:29:19 AM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #118 on: July 20, 2012, 06:39:24 AM »

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain

All of these have ordered DF63 except one of the Franklins. In addition:
f229805 - B√łen has ordered DF13 and DF63
fN11946 - Broom has ordered DF13

This to see if Mike's varieties X13-913 and X63-1011 hold up.

-Kai
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rms2
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« Reply #119 on: July 20, 2012, 07:12:31 AM »

No DF13 or DF63 results yesterday. It appears FTDNA was mostly doing Family Finder stuff.

Maybe today.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 07:12:43 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #120 on: July 20, 2012, 08:05:50 AM »

It's interesting that thus far there have been no Irish DF13- results. There are 42 DF13+ results in the R-L21* Ireland category at the R-L21 Plus Project, and that is not counting all of the Irish guys in the various DF13+ subclades.

It would be nice if we could get the entire project tested for DF13, so that we can track the negatives.

I am also curious about Maddox in the DF13- category. My understanding is that Maddox/Mattox is a Welsh surname, yet his ancestor is listed as having been born in France. I am wondering if he was merely born in France or was actually French. Anyway, I sent an email to that member asking for some clarification.
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« Reply #121 on: July 20, 2012, 08:43:53 AM »

It seems that the two oldest varieties under DF13* are either 9919 as English and 'All Others are UK based


9919 kits that have an 'Old World' reported as:
England
England
England
England
England
Germany
Ireland
Ireland
Scotland
Wales
zzCountry
zzCountry

And the 'All Others' Cluster (Notice the West stats)

England   IS Eng North West
England   IS Eng z unk
England   IS Eng South West
England   IS Eng North West
England   IS Eng z unk
England    IS Eng South West
France   EW Fra z unk
France   EW Fra North & Central
Germany   EW Ger North
Ireland   IS Ire z unk
Ireland   IS Ire Leinster
Ireland   IS Ire Ulster
Ireland   IS Ire z unk
Ireland   IS Ire Ulster
Ireland   IS Ire Ulster
Portugal   EW Iberian Peninsula
Scotland   IS Sco North
Scotland   IS Sco West & Central
Scotland   IS Sco West & Central
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea
Wales   IS Wales
Wales   IS Wales

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
df.reynolds
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« Reply #122 on: July 20, 2012, 12:27:46 PM »

Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.

L21** = L21+ DF13- DF63-
f37201   Berry   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   England, London

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin

DF13* = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255-
fN59178   Carroll   Ireland
f16114   MacLea   Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f196158   Rickwood  England, East, Suffolk, Mildenhall
fN33209   Whidden    England
f148326   zzzUnk(Ross)  zzzUnkOrigin

This group of DF13* should grow. Not many DF13+ people have tested for DF49.

BTW, Thomas confirmed that kit 64047 Lurz, Draas (German minority), Romania is:
  DF13+ DF49- L513- L96- L144- Z255- Z253- DF21- L371- DF41- L555- L526+

--david
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« Reply #123 on: July 20, 2012, 12:52:48 PM »

Here are the asterisk and double asterisk folks that I'm aware of (as I'm defined the asterisks.) I'm including the DF13* and DF13** guys because they've actually shown great diligence in testing, particularly DF13**.

L21** = L21+ DF13- DF63-
f37201   Berry   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   England, London

L21* = L21+ DF13-
f54798   Franklin   England
f174870   Franklin   England
f127090   LeBlanc   France
f25304   Maddox   France
f94428   Meadows   zzUnkOrigin
f232541   Roma   Spain
               
DF13** = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L144- L371- L555-
f26059   Durall   zzzUnkOrigin
f109174   Harrington   zzzUnkOrigin
f187172   Lewis   England, South West, Wiltshire
f191494   Mann   zzzUnkOrigin
fN8772   Porter   Ireland, Ulster
f19706   Price   Wales
fN55408   Smith   zzzUnkOrigin

DF13* = DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255-
fN59178   Carroll   Ireland
f16114   MacLea   Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f196158   Rickwood  England, East, Suffolk, Mildenhall
fN33209   Whidden    England
f148326   zzzUnk(Ross)  zzzUnkOrigin

This group of DF13* should grow. Not many DF13+ people have tested for DF49.

BTW, Thomas confirmed that kit 64047 Lurz, Draas (German minority), Romania is:
  DF13+ DF49- L513- L96- L144- Z255- Z253- DF21- L371- DF41- L555- L526+

--david

Yes, I should move him back to the asterisk group. I've had him marked as R-L21/DF13/L526 but L526 hasn't broken private status yet.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #124 on: July 20, 2012, 03:00:08 PM »

I wish WTY results would show up on the individual's Haplotree page and in the various arrays of SNP results that show up on GAP and public project pages.
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