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Author Topic: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63  (Read 29527 times)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2012, 06:08:06 PM »

Steve you now up to 176 bucks (for six SNP orders) for testing Continental DF13 and DF63's.

Hope you are starting culling your list of candidates.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2012, 06:19:22 PM »

Well I would throw the money at France because it looks like there will be a good return of L21* from the DF13 tests while the results so far would suggest there would be a catastrophic waste of funds with only extremely rare L21* coming through if you tested Germany, Scandinavia etc.  I think going for the French is the only way to get the total of L21* up to useful levels for analysis. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2012, 06:21:24 PM »

Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas. 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2012, 07:58:54 PM »

Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas. 
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2012, 07:33:22 AM »

Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas.  
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.

That is a good thought, Gioiello.

I think I will offer argiedude a DF13 test. He does have one of the weirdest L21 haplotypes ever.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 07:45:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2012, 07:42:44 AM »

Just a thought but the few Italian L21s would be very interesting.  They could be from sources in either France or the south Germanic speaking areas.  
I have said many times in the past that the only Italian cases interesting would be those of Argiedude, if he isn’t a recent link with Kellaway (but he didn’t respond to my requests to test some close relative in Italy) and of Soncina, if he is actually a R-L21. The others are mostly of recent French origin, etc. Anyway the very few Italian R-L21-s (if we are able to demonstrate that they are Italian ones from some centuries) do demonstrate that the migration from North-West or Central Europe to Italy simply doesn’t exist.

That is a good thought, Gioiello.

I think I will offer argiedude a DF13 test. He does have one of the weirdest L21 haplotypes ever.


Well, so much for that. My email to him bounced, and it was the only email address I had for him. The guy has a mania for privacy, so he may be hard to find again.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 07:46:01 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2012, 07:57:39 AM »

Well I would throw the money at France because it looks like there will be a good return of L21* from the DF13 tests while the results so far would suggest there would be a catastrophic waste of funds with only extremely rare L21* coming through if you tested Germany, Scandinavia etc.  I think going for the French is the only way to get the total of L21* up to useful levels for analysis. 

I will take a look at the French. My thinking in offering the Hungarian and the Croatian the test was that, if, on the off chance, L21 was actually born on the P312 route north via the Danube, some DF13- results there might give us some indication of that. Of course, we have precious little Danubian L21 to work with, but it might be worth a shot.

I realize I could be totally off in my thinking on that, but I thought it was worth testing our most extreme easterners, especially those with no close matches of any kind. That is also why I would like to snag argiedude with a DF13 test, although his origin is Italy, which is not so far to the east, and not anywhere near the Danube.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2012, 10:11:05 AM »

I realize I could be totally off in my thinking on that, but I thought it was worth testing our most extreme easterners, especially those with no close matches of any kind. That is also why I would like to snag argiedude with a DF13 test, although his origin is Italy, which is not so far to the east, and not anywhere near the Danube.

As I have said before, he never responded to my letters about Kellaway, desaparecidos, etc. I have seen that he writes sometimes on Rootsweb, and I think he is living and studying in Great Britain now. Unfortunately neither Soncina answered my letters.
About Argiedude perhaps it is more likely to contact the Kellaways and test them for DF13.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2012, 07:18:55 PM »

We have a second Catalonian (Pais) testing for DF13 now. Since one of the DF13- guys is Catalonian, it will be interesting to see how Pais comes out.

One of our Normans (St. Jorre dit Sergerie) has also ordered DF13.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 07:19:11 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2012, 07:34:14 PM »

Well, I finally broke down and ordered DF13 for myself (paid for by me, naturally).

That ought to answer the burning question of whether or not DF13 was present on the eastern shore of the Ohio River in the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia in 1804. :-)
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2012, 02:00:18 PM »

I have taken some time over the last few days and worked up a data file cantaining
620 DF13+ Xsubclades, XPredicted subclades, XNulls. Running them through McGee's Utility

- Infinite allele mutation model is used
- Average mutation rate: 0.00172844 (MarkoH-67)
- Probability is 68.27% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
- Average generaton: 30 years

DF13+ has TMRCA of 450 years from L21 modal.

Modal-DF13x            13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   13   13   
16   17   9   10   11   11   25   15   19   30   15   15   17   17   11   
11   19   23   15   15   18   17   37   38   12   12   11   9   15   16   
8   10   10   8   10   10   12   23   23   16   10   12   12   15   8   
12   22   20   13   12   11   13   11   11   12   12

I created a new Phylogram of these 620 using the McGee output setting above.
I am labeling the edges with the over 100 known remaining DF13x varieties.

MJost
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:21:21 AM by rms2 » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2012, 07:15:52 PM »

Well, I figure I'll probably be DF13+. If so, I'm pretty much stuck in the same boat
I'm in now: trying to figure out which new SNP to test for (I'm already DF21- and DF23-).

If, on the other hand, I get lucky and score a DF13- (funny to put it that way, isn't it?),
then I'll just order a DF63 test. There's no guarantee a DF13- result always means a
DF63+ result, but right now it's the only choice. It makes things easy.

If I get a DF13+ result (which seems likely), I'll probably follow up with Z253 and see
how that goes.
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rms2
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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2012, 08:29:17 AM »

Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:29:51 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2012, 12:29:04 PM »

Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.



Make that five from Spain now.
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MHammers
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« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2012, 12:57:34 PM »

Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.



Make that five from Spain now.

Nice work!  This should be very helpful in determining direction of L21 movement.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2012, 03:26:03 PM »

Hopefully we'll get a good set of results. Obviously it would be nice also if by increasing awareness we end up "flushing out" another DF63+, after all we just need two (with GD greater then 10) to get it on ISOGG tree.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2012, 04:55:02 PM »

MikeW, if you could update your spread sheet for Thomas K who is now DF13+ and previously was L526?

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8629

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
k.o.gran
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« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2012, 05:20:02 PM »

Hopefully we'll get a good set of results. Obviously it would be nice also if by increasing awareness we end up "flushing out" another DF63+, after all we just need two (with GD greater then 10) to get it on ISOGG tree.

Hi all,

According to my notes, we have 7 DF13- people in the L21 project pending a DF63 result. Most are from last weeks batch. There is also a person that Mike has placed in the same variety as me (DF63+) who has ordered DF13 and DF63.

-Kai
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2012, 05:50:11 PM »

MikeW, if you could update your spread sheet for Thomas K who is now DF13+ and previously was L526?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8629

Will do.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2012, 07:44:46 AM »

Hopefully we'll get a good set of results. Obviously it would be nice also if by increasing awareness we end up "flushing out" another DF63+, after all we just need two (with GD greater then 10) to get it on ISOGG tree.

Hi all,

According to my notes, we have 7 DF13- people in the L21 project pending a DF63 result. Most are from last weeks batch. There is also a person that Mike has placed in the same variety as me (DF63+) who has ordered DF13 and DF63.

-Kai


Hi, Kai. Welcome!

What you wrote above is correct.

All three of our French DF13- guys and our Catalonian-Spanish DF13- guy have ordered DF63.

Three of the DF13- guys with English surnames have ordered it as well, and we have one man, with y-dna origin in Portugal, who has ordered DF63 without first having a DF13 result, positive or negative.

Things should get interesting here in about a month. Wish we didn't have to wait so long!

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2012, 09:45:38 AM »

Here is what we have with regard to pending continental DF13 testing thus far.

Pending DF13 Tests


France - 6

Spain - 4

Germany - 3

Norway - 3

Poland - 2

Czech Republic - 1

Hungary - 1

Netherlands - 1

I'm trying to recruit some more, so the numbers may change.


That, together with the results we already have, should go a good way to confirming the pattern that is already strongly suggested by the results to date. 
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Jdean
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« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2012, 10:16:23 AM »

That, together with the results we already have, should go a good way to confirming the pattern that is already strongly suggested by the results to date. 

And hopefully another DF63+ result is what FTDNA are waiting for before updating the haplotree !!
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Kit No. 117897
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2012, 02:00:52 PM »

MikeW, if you could update your spread sheet for Thomas K who is now DF13+ and previously was L526?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/message/8629

Will do.

Thanks.

Also would you look at variety  25911 with 1130-A-2 (and 1130-A-1 and -A's) and see if 25911 should be 1130-A-2 and the current 1130-A-2 should be the 1130-A-2-A?

Thanks.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
k.o.gran
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« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2012, 06:52:27 AM »

Things should get interesting here in about a month. Wish we didn't have to wait so long!

Luckily, SNP results usually come back long before their lab date, but I wouldn't mind having the results today.
I'm currently trying to get any of the three Brooms from Mike's variety X13-913 to test. That's the variety with Roma in it. So far no reply from any of the Broom project admins and the two I've contacted through ysearch. I will keep trying though. It seems they have many potential DF13- kits if the variety is valid. I find the names "Roma" and "Broom/Broome" interestingly similar, but I do not know the history of either names, so I guess that would fall into the category of speculation.

-Kai
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R-DF63+
rms2
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« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2012, 07:59:14 AM »

It would be nice if the results came back in a couple of weeks. My own test hasn't even gone to the lab yet due to the July 4th holiday here in the USA. It's still sitting in "Pending Shipment to the Lab", along with several other DF13 tests.
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