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Author Topic: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63  (Read 27047 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: June 30, 2012, 10:14:15 PM »

Here are the L21+ DF13- people that I have to-date:

f37201____ Berry____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ RHFU8___ England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN72406___ Darke____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ G8GVC___ England, London
f54798____ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ 7FXAK___ England
f174870___ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ England
fN66966___ Gery_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ SP96E___ France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
f127090___ LeBlanc__________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ EH9SR___ France
f25304____ Maddox___________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ France
f191950___ Lowden___________________ R-L21/DF63___________________ X13-1011____________ 8XW6J___ Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
fN80403___ Bishop___________________ R-L21**______________________ X13-1313____________ GDNM8___ England, London
f232541___ Roma_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13-913_____________ JRJZC___ Spain


An intesting geographic distribution. No one from Ireland yet, which says something given the number of Irish who have tested for DF13.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 10:16:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 11:03:13 AM »

Given sample biases, 3 French out of 10 is an incredible amount in such a small group.  I find that a lot more significant than 5 British given the enormous bias towards that group.  I would love to know the percentages i.e 3 out of how many French tested?  5 out of how many British Isles tested?  I bet that would put it in a different light and show the significance of the 3 French results. I would imagine the British Isles 5 is out of hugely larger sample than the French 3.


Overall a lot of France and Britain is pretty well in line with what we know of L21 as a whole.  I would still feel it supports that L21 took off as P312* passed through northern France shortly before it took off to Britain.    
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 11:04:35 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
jerome72
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2012, 10:23:54 AM »

I think it will be interresting to compare the different results between the countries of continental Europe.
There where DF13- will be the most important, maybe we will have the place of origin of L21...
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2012, 11:39:14 AM »

I think it will be interresting to compare the different results between the countries of continental Europe.
There where DF13- will be the most important, maybe we will have the place of origin of L21...


I think you could be right. When the DF13 results first started streaming in, and it looked like everyone was positive, I thought DF13 might be another flash-in-the-pan SNP. Now it looks like it could be important.

Right now I am trying to encourage our continentals to order the DF13 test. It's too bad our General Fund is a bit low right now.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 11:39:44 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2012, 12:42:08 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 12:48:32 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 12:51:48 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

For Spain, we have two results: one positive (a man of Basque ancestry), and one negative (a Catalonian).

Standby for more!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 12:54:56 PM »

Here are the L21+ DF13- people that I have to-date:

f37201____ Berry____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ RHFU8___ England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN72406___ Darke____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ G8GVC___ England, London
f54798____ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ 7FXAK___ England
f174870___ Franklin_________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ England
fN66966___ Gery_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ SP96E___ France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
f127090___ LeBlanc__________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ EH9SR___ France
f25304____ Maddox___________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13 -unassigned_____ ___ France
f191950___ Lowden___________________ R-L21/DF63___________________ X13-1011____________ 8XW6J___ Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
fN80403___ Bishop___________________ R-L21**______________________ X13-1313____________ GDNM8___ England, London
f232541___ Roma_____________________ R-L21*_______________________ X13-913_____________ JRJZC___ Spain


An intesting geographic distribution. No one from Ireland yet, which says something given the number of Irish who have tested for DF13.

I had a look at the surnames.  They are all the sort of names you get in high Medieval England and lowland Scotland.  They dont tell us much.  I was wondering if they could be Normans but the jury would be out on most of them. They could be but they are not distinctive enough to suggest a Medieval French origin.  Regardless, if DF13 is a spin-off of L21* in France then DF13 also probably took off and prospered in a similar area before arriving in the isles.  The isles could be a fission of a mix of L21* and DF13* in France but with a bit of a founder effect meaning less L21* or simply DF13* may have already become dominant before crossing to the isles.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 12:55:59 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 12:56:38 PM »

I should add that I am not including members of DF13+ subclades, just men who are currently in the R-L21* geographic categories mentioned. For example, there are two or three Frenchmen who are DF23+. They are, by default, DF13+, as well.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 12:58:04 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

For Spain, we have two results: one positive (a man of Basque ancestry), and one negative (a Catalonian).

Standby for more!

Interesting.  Those area of Spain seem to go with France IMO, as they do in terms of L21 overall.  They seem like the western edge of the main continental L21 zone, perhaps even a bit of a mountain refuge for people who originally were based in France (as some suggest for Catalans and Basques).
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 12:58:14 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Without actually counting, I don't know for sure, but I would guess at least 30 times as many men of British Isles descent have been tested.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 12:59:51 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

wow 50% for France and the Pyrennian area of Spain.  That fits very nicely with the peak zone of continental L21
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 01:04:54 PM »

The Germans are another story. Eight DF13 results, all positive.

The Rhenish Beaker route to the Isles or am I overreaching?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 01:05:02 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Without actually counting, I don't know for sure, but I would guess at least 30 times as many men of British Isles descent have been tested.

So that would be 5 out of perhaps 200=2.5% for the isles combined against 4 out of 8= 50% for France and the France-Spain border area.  I think that is pretty conclusive.  Think that is a big moment in L21 studies, particularly for us two who have fought hard against the L21=isles people.  Give yourself a slap on the back!
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 01:08:11 PM »

I have often said a lit of negatives by country is as important as a list of positives.  That is the only way that a percentage of DF13 to L21* can be estimated on a country by country basis.  I would love to know how many Isles people tested to find the 5 L21xDF13 folk compared to French who tested to get 3 L21XDF=F13.  A list of L21xDF13 tells us a lot less than it would if we new how many people tested DF13+ in the round of testings and the ratio on a country by country basis.  I would imagine there were 10 times or more isles people to French testing for this SNP maybe far more than that.  Anyone got any stats? I would think that the real news here is that a far higher ration of L21* to DF13 exists in France than the isles and that could be described as vastly higher if you compare France to the non-English in the isles.   

I can tell you easily about the French. Six men with French y-dna ancestry have received DF13 test results, and half of them are negative.

So many men of British Isles y-dna ancestry have been tested for DF13 already that it would be too much work to try to collect that stat. I'm too lazy to do it! :-)

Roughly though are we talking 30, 60, 100, 200 or what in terms of British and Irish?


Without actually counting, I don't know for sure, but I would guess at least 30 times as many men of British Isles descent have been tested.

So that would be 5 out of perhaps 200=2.5% for the isles combined against 4 out of 8= 50% for France and the France-Spain border area.  I think that is pretty conclusive.  Think that is a big moment in L21 studies, particularly for us two who have fought hard against the L21=isles people.  Give yourself a slap on the back!

I'll have a celebratory glass of Sangria this evening (I really will). :-)

I would have had one anyway, but tonight it will be for a reason in addition to the fact that it tastes so good.
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2012, 01:09:26 PM »

One Portuguese DF13 result thus far: positive.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2012, 01:14:07 PM »

The Germans are another story. Eight DF13 results, all positive.

The Rhenish Beaker route to the Isles or am I overreaching?

Well France is 50-50 which is what I would expect for an area where L21 and then DF13 arose in rapid succession.  I see your point though.  DF13-only/dominated populations are some sort of fission/founder effect offshoot of the mixed L21/DF13 population in France.  If isles (including/especially the Celtic fringe areas) L21 AND German L21 both are DF13 dominated and lack L21* then that is either a coincidence or maybe one derived from the other.  Or perhaps both derive from one offshoot.  Its incredibly interesting.  One way or another L21 became very dominant among the British in pre-Roman times and the British's main links with beaker seem to have been with the Lower Rhine area.  L21 is not strong there now but it may have been in beaker times.  U106 overall may only be 4000 years old or so and west of east Germany/Poland its variance is much lower suggesting it only got there maybe 1000BC so someone clearly was there pre-U106.
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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2012, 01:14:28 PM »

There are three DF13+ results from the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category. All three have Spanish surnames. If they are counted as Spanish - and I'm pretty sure they should be - that reduces the percentage of DF13- results from Iberia thus far.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2012, 01:18:43 PM »

One Portuguese DF13 result thus far: positive.

The plot thickens.  Need a bigger sample though.  Once you have two in a small sample I think it tends to be telling you something.  One is a bit too small though.  However, if L21* does maintain that kind of strike rate in Atlantic Iberia (where L21 is not common) then it may through up a surprise and be another reminder that frequency means diddly squat in terms of origins. 
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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2012, 01:24:24 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2012, 01:32:52 PM »

Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2012, 01:34:57 PM »

Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

England

32

Isle of Man

1

Ireland


39

Scotland

25

Wales

6

New World: British Isles Surname

65

Total: 168

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 01:37:26 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2012, 01:40:27 PM »

Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

England

32

Isle of Man

1

Ireland


39

Scotland

25

Wales

6

New World: British Isles Surname

65

Total: 168

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.


Scotland has produced the one DF13- DF63+ result thus far, but the man in that case with the Scottish ancestor is himself a Norwegian. He has pretty good reasons for believing his ancestor to be a Scottish seafarer, but it's a bit complicated.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 01:40:51 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2012, 01:43:11 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.

What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.
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