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Author Topic: R1b-L21* "true asterisk" DF13- people & DF63  (Read 28994 times)
rms2
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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2012, 01:45:39 PM »

Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  

Well, with our limited General Fund right now, I have offered a free DF13 test to three men: an R-L21 with Croatian ancestry, an R-L21 from Poland (a Polish citizen with no close matches of any kind), and an R-L21 from Hungary (an actual Hungarian with no close matches of any kind).

If they accept, their results should tell us a little something, anyway.

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2012, 01:48:59 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.

That makes a lot of sense.  Interesting though that the division is not a simple east-west on.  it may be on the continent but its not in terms of Britain and Ireland.  I think though the extreme lack of L21* among the Celtic parts of the isles indicates that the few L21* folk may be later blow-ins in post-Roman and maybe even Norman times.  Nearly all the names seem standard Medieval English names.  

This does of course have some interesting implications.  The Celtic fringe of the isles (and perhaps all the isles in pre-Roman times) only seem to have got DF13 and not L21*.  It will be interesting how the distribution of the two clades looks in France once we have a bigger sample.  It does kind of hint that the isles and German DF13 are in some way derived from the same subset of continental L21 that lacks L21*.  There is an initial impression that L21* might be more western and DF13 more north and eastern looking at all the countries so far.  I realise that they may be parallel clades though and the ancestral/derived aspect vis a vis DF13 may not be a sure-fire indicator of relative age.  However, in other P312 clades it does tend to be that the * clades do have higher variance.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2012, 01:55:32 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.



What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


certainly goes against the 'randy allied soldiers' total crazy horse theory for L21 in south-west germany that dates it to 1945!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 01:56:04 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2012, 01:58:59 PM »

Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  

Well, with our limited General Fund right now, I have offered a free DF13 test to three men: an R-L21 with Croatian ancestry, an R-L21 from Poland (a Polish citizen with no close matches of any kind), and an R-L21 from Hungary (an actual Hungarian with no close matches of any kind).

If they accept, their results should tell us a little something, anyway.

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.

I would reckon on them being DF13, pretty amazed if they were not.  Its a shame we cant have another round of pushing the very sluggish rate French testing.  Unfortunately the recession has made me too poor to sponsor it again!
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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2012, 02:10:59 PM »

Jeez this is exciting stuff.  I was kind of surprised that the significance of this was not commented on yesterday after Mike posted.  Whatever it means (and maybe I am jumping the gun a bit) it is a very strong trend with France and its western border in Spain being the area where its 50-50 and Germany and the isles and Germany are just subsets.  

Here is another possibility based on this.  L21xDF13 was a little more south and western while DF13 occurred on the east of the early L21* world moving on a north and east trajectory.  Maybe we should see them as two parallel lineages, one weighted slightly west and drifting more west and one weighted slightly more east drifting more north and east.. and the origin point most likely where the two lineages both occur i.e. France.  If the sample of L21* ever gets to a decent size where a fair comparison could be made between it and an equal random sample of the massive DF13* group then that would be very interesting.  I would like to see samples of 20 or so for continental countries like France etc before that is done though because one group is huge and the other tiny right now. Mind you if half of all French L21 is L21xDF13 then there is plenty out there if only they would test.  I would think that L21XDF13 could well be the reason that France has the highest variance.  My prediction is DF13 will be younger but not by much.  

Well, with our limited General Fund right now, I have offered a free DF13 test to three men: an R-L21 with Croatian ancestry, an R-L21 from Poland (a Polish citizen with no close matches of any kind), and an R-L21 from Hungary (an actual Hungarian with no close matches of any kind).

If they accept, their results should tell us a little something, anyway.

I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.

I would reckon on them being DF13, pretty amazed if they were not.  Its a shame we cant have another round of pushing the very sluggish rate French testing.  Unfortunately the recession has made me too poor to sponsor it again!

I don't know. Just for grins I am going to take the contrary view and bet that at least the Hungarian will be DF13- and that probably the Croatian will be, too.

I suspect the Pole, with his lack of any kind of matches (except for the one to another man with his surname), might be DF13-.

I could be wrong, but if I am, it's no big deal. I don't feel confident enough to argue that they will be DF13-, so I have no pride invested in the outcome either way. It's all just for fun at this point.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2012, 02:11:59 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.



What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


certainly goes against the 'randy allied soldiers' total crazy horse theory for L21 in south-west germany that dates it to 1945!

Well that whole area was the Roman province of Germania Superior. You only probably see actual "Germanic speakers" taking over the area from the 3rd century onwards. More then likely it was mostly Celtic speaking during the time of Roman expansion under Caesar.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Alemanni_expansion.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Karte_limes.jpg
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2012, 02:17:22 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.



What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.


certainly goes against the 'randy allied soldiers' total crazy horse theory for L21 in south-west germany that dates it to 1945!

Well that whole area was the Roman province of Germania Superior. You only probably see actual "Germanic speakers" taking over the area from the 3rd century onwards. More then likely it was mostly Celtic speaking during the time of Roman expansion under Caesar.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Alemanni_expansion.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Karte_limes.jpg


Right, which is also why you have Tacitus writing in the 1st century in his Agricola that Germans had red hair like Caledonians. Now red hair is much less common in Germany than it is in the British Isles.

I know someone will jump on me for saying it, but I think red hair was probably more common among Celts than it was among actual Germanic-speaking "Germans".
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 02:18:06 PM by rms2 » Logged

seferhabahir
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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2012, 02:25:27 PM »

The Baltic Cluster is DF13+.  Klyosov's analysis indicated it was probably brought to NE Europe by German Jews who fled Germany during the Middle Ages due to persecution.

What's interesting about that is it's often said that Yiddish developed out of Jewish communities originally based in the Rhineland who then spread into Eastern Europe during medieval persecution.

I am still waiting for a non-Ashkenazi to show up in 1111EE that might indicate a probable Middle Ages conversion event. Until I see one, I'll stay with my theory that this cluster with its rare DYS388=11 is an old offshoot of DF13+ that arrived shortly after P312 and L21 came about (whenever and wherever that happened). I suppose all the non-Jewish lines could have daughtered out, leaving nobody but we few Ashkenazi 1111EE's

This cluster is more than likely descended from someone who lived in the Rhineland 700 years ago, as estimated by Klyosov, but I can't say that it would be a native continental. For many Rhineland Jews, it was a long round-about trip to get there through the Mediterranean and/or Iberia after the destruction of the second temple, and maybe only a handful of R-DF13 made the trip or left enough male sons.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2012, 02:32:47 PM »

Right, which is also why you have Tacitus writing in the 1st century in his Agricola that Germans had red hair like Caledonians. Now red hair is much less common in Germany than it is in the British Isles.

I know someone will jump on me for saying it, but I think red hair was probably more common among Celts than it was among actual Germanic-speaking "Germans".

Indeed, now my memory might be hazy on this but I think I recall reading once that the 1st century AD concept of been "German" was anyone who was from East of the Rhine.

Of course there's also the massive Celtic Oppidum discovered at Glauberg about 40km Northeast of Frankfurt am Main (about 90km's North-East of Rhine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg

http://www.dainst.org/sites/default/files/medien/de/Netconnect_3_Statue_g.jpg

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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2012, 02:35:06 PM »

Our Hungarian has agreed to the DF13 test, and the test has been ordered. I hope we get a fast turnaround on it, and I am hoping the result is the more interesting minus sign right of the lucky number.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2012, 02:55:09 PM »

Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.

Here is what Mike has as Non-isle DF13+ with Old World, Region and MDKA&O

Quote

Non-Isle DF13+ N=64


N=2
Denmark   NO Baltic Sea   Denmark, Region Sjælland, Lolland, Nakskov
Denmark   NO North Sea   Denmark, Sønderjyllands Amt, Tønder, Buntje-Ballum

N=18
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Languedoc-Roussillon
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
France   EW Fra North & Central   England, Channel Islands (near France)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France (northern)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Marans
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Brasparts
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Morbihan, Kervignac
France   EW Fra Northeast   France, Lorraine, Moselle, Montbronn
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France

N=16
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Kaiserslautern, Otterberg
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Saalfeld-Rudolstadt, Oberweißbach
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Pozen
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Eifa
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Stade, Heinbockel
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hannover
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Bavaria, Franconia, Würzburg
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Weil-der-Stadt
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany

N=1
Italy   EW Ita z unk   Italy

N=3
Luxembourg   EW Low Countries   Luxembourg, Pratz
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen

N=8
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Rogaland, Utsira
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Sør-Trøndelag, Gauldal, Melhus
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland Co., Svolvær
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Møre og Romsdal, Vatne
Norway    NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland, Laksaa

N=9
Portugal   EW Iberian Peninsula   Portugal
Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Andalucía, Cadiz

N=5
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Jämtland län
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Virserum
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult

N=1
Switzerland   EW Alpine & Cisalpine   Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau,
Herzogenbuchsee

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2012, 02:59:23 PM »

Another interesting thing is two of the French seem to have Breton connections.  One is from Finistere (although the name may originate elsewhere) while the name Madox sounds very Breton to me.  That is very interesting and an eye opener considering L21* has not been discovered yet in the Celtic fringe of Britain or Ireland in what seems like a very large sample tested for DF13.  This again indicates to me that the strength of L21 in Brittany is at least half pre-dating the Breton/Britons arriving.   
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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2012, 03:00:30 PM »

Okay, I did the bean counting for British Isles DF13+ results.

Of course, these figures do not include all of the British Isles folks in DF13+ subclades, i.e., nearly all the subclades we currently know about.

Here is what Mike has as Non-isle DF13+ with Old World, Region and MDKA&O

Quote

Non-Isle DF13+ N=64


N=2
Denmark   NO Baltic Sea   Denmark, Region Sjælland, Lolland, Nakskov
Denmark   NO North Sea   Denmark, Sønderjyllands Amt, Tønder, Buntje-Ballum

N=18
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Languedoc-Roussillon
France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
France   EW Fra North & Central   England, Channel Islands (near France)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France (northern)
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey
France   EW Fra North & Central   France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Marans
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Brasparts
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Morbihan, Kervignac
France   EW Fra Northeast   France, Lorraine, Moselle, Montbronn
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France
France   EW Fra z unk   France

N=16
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Kaiserslautern, Otterberg
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Saalfeld-Rudolstadt, Oberweißbach
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Thuringia, Pozen
Germany   EW Ger Middle   Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Eifa
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Stade, Heinbockel
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover
Germany   EW Ger North   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hannover
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Bavaria, Franconia, Würzburg
Germany   EW Ger South   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Weil-der-Stadt
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany
Germany   EW Ger z unk   Germany

N=1
Italy   EW Ita z unk   Italy

N=3
Luxembourg   EW Low Countries   Luxembourg, Pratz
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands
Netherlands   EW Low Countries   Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen

N=8
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Rogaland, Utsira
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Sør-Trøndelag, Gauldal, Melhus
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland Co., Svolvær
Norway   NO North Sea   Norway, Vestlandet, Møre og Romsdal, Vatne
Norway    NO North Sea   Norway, Nordland, Laksaa

N=9
Portugal   EW Iberian Peninsula   Portugal
Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain
Spain   EW Iberian Peninsula   Spain, Andalucía, Cadiz

N=5
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Jämtland län
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Virserum
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden
Sweden   NO Baltic Sea   Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult

N=1
Switzerland   EW Alpine & Cisalpine   Switzerland, Bern, Oberaargau,
Herzogenbuchsee


Where do those figures come from? When I ran the different continental categories for DF13 in my GAP Y-SNP search thingy, I did not get anywhere near that many DF13+ results. Only three Frenchmen came up as having gotten DF13+ results, for example.

Or are these likely DF13+ outcomes based on haplotype?
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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2012, 03:10:58 PM »

Is it the additional variance in DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull that have produced the older numbers than overall L21All?

MJost

Quote
[/YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,327.5   GA=   136.7   3,758.8
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,999.4   GB=   116.1   3,192.3
                     
59 Markers               
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP         
27.5      GAB=   159.6   4,389.7         
quote]
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2012, 03:19:54 PM »

even with the bigger list like this, the trend is clear.  There is a basic trend there that France and the neighbouring border area of Spain have a much higher proportion of L21* compared to negligible amounts in Britain and in Germanic Europe.  It seems on the continent there is a west-east division of some sort with L21* being more western than L21 (i.e largely DF 13) as a whole.  Its not a simple north south division because a couple of the three French guys are from the far NW of France.  It does seem more of a west-east than north-south division so far on the continent.  However, this is not continued in the isles, where the L21 seems to resemble more the kind of mix we see from Germany/Low Countries eastwards i.e. its almost all DF13.  The total absence of L21xDF13 in the Celtic fringes is very striking and links them more with the eastern part of the L21 world than the west.  This is big news.  These are not subtle trends.  They are massive differences.  
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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2012, 03:20:24 PM »

Quote

Where do those figures come from? When I ran the different continental categories for DF13 in my GAP Y-SNP search thingy, I did not get anywhere near that many DF13+ results. Only three Frenchmen came up as having gotten DF13+ results, for example.

Or are these likely DF13+ outcomes based on haplotype?

Ah, these are 'Tested' (not predicted) Non-Isle DF13's that MikeW flagged as DF13 in his latest spreadsheet.
MJost

PS these are in the order I listed them in the previous post showing Old World ect. (except I forgot to list Belarus in the country post: f193834 Yurzditsky R-L21/DF13 Belarus   EE East Cont Europe   Belarus, Igumen


f193834   Yurzditsky   R-L21/DF13
f210257   Matrois(Nakskov)   R-L21/DF13
f174552   Gram(Buntje-Ballum)   R-L21/DF13
f78065   Lamphier   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23*
f176268   Gontaut   R-L21/DF13/L96
f198135   Brunet   R-L21/DF13
fN92711   Le Provost   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23*
f21472   Johnston   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f79112   Grenier   R-L21/DF13/Z253
f150405   Turpin   R-L21/DF13/L513
fE13942   Robert(Lefèvre)   R-L21/DF13
f18917   Brun   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23*
f57411   Fournier   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
fN56523   Le Bras   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f85844   Bergeron   R-L21/DF13/L513/L706.2/L705.2
fN98545   Le Guennec   R-L21/DF13
f55943   Schneider   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f42087   Via   R-L21/DF13
f158136   Montgomery   R-L21/DF13/DF21*
f191044   Corse   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
fE5371   Bellieres   R-L21/DF13/Z253
f55501   Fortineux   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f113882   Müller   R-L21/DF13/L513
f152421   Becker   R-L21/DF13
f140503   Krueger   R-L21/DF13
f166617   Wiegand   R-L21/DF13
fN45541   Tiedeman   R-L21/DF13
f208773   Reith   R-L21/DF13
fN47848   Adams   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f115552   Everett   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f65932   Wigand   R-L21/DF13
f88876   Kepler   R-L21/DF13
f81967   Wentzel   R-L21/DF13
f50389   Brune   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f156802   Fortineux   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
fN14949   Lominac   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f24073   zzzUnk(Stroup)   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
yDZRKP   zzzUnknown   R-L21/DF13/L513/L69.5/P66
fN28650   Conrardy   R-L21/DF13/DF21/P314*
fE9807   Kaptein   R-L21/DF13/DF21/Z246*
fN3933   Ammerlaan   R-L21/DF13/L513
fN5924   Måland(Hjelmeland)   R-L21/DF13/DF21/P314*
fN55657   Skaar(Utsira)   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f162176   Falch(Ølfernes)   R-L21/DF13/Z253**
fN82019   Synnset(Melhus)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f125806   Duoos   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f198811   Jørgensen(Svolvær)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f211524   Ulvestadbakken(Vatne)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
fN14161   Olsson(Laksaa)   R-L21/DF13/Z255/L159
f172173   Neves   R-L21/DF13
fN93033   Amuchástegui   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f58625   Guerra   R-L21/DF13/Z253**
f143916   Rodriguez   R-L21/DF13/Z253
f66434   Davila   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f46334   Sampedro   R-L21/DF13/Z253*
f197385   Barraza   R-L21/DF13
fN10695   Escalante   R-L21/DF13
f31126   Olazabal   R-L21/DF13
fN5620   Backstrom(Jämtland)   R-L21/DF13
f99735   Svensson(Virserum)   R-L21/DF13
f148856   Forgason   R-L21/DF13/DF49/DF23/M222
f132118   Bankston   R-L21/DF13/Z253
fN29541   Sunesson(Tibbhult)   R-L21/DF13/L513/L706.2/L705.2
fE4785   Gerber   R-L21/DF13/Z253**
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 03:26:23 PM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2012, 03:22:52 PM »

Is it the additional variance in DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull that have produced the older numbers than overall L21All?

MJost

Quote
[/YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,327.5   GA=   136.7   3,758.8
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,999.4   GB=   116.1   3,192.3
                     
59 Markers               
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP         
27.5      GAB=   159.6   4,389.7         
quote]

Sorry I dont follow you?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2012, 03:31:22 PM »

Is it the additional variance in DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull that have produced the older numbers than overall L21All?

MJost

Quote
[/YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=620   DF13xSubPredNull  GA coal=   121.0   3,327.5   GA=   136.7   3,758.8
YrsPerGen*   Count   AGE   Generations   YBP   Founder   Generations   YBP
27.5   N=2647   L21 All GB coal=   109.1   2,999.4   GB=   116.1   3,192.3
                     
59 Markers               
TMRCA      Founder   Generations   YBP         
27.5      GAB=   159.6   4,389.7         
quote]

Sorry I dont follow you?

The coalescence AND the Founders age estimate are higher with the DF13All xSubclades xPredictedSubclades xNull guys have a GA coal= 121.0 generations where the L21Guys have GB coal= 109.1 generations.

Just wondering why ten generations more with about four times small group could be the reason but why so much more?

MJost

 
Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
seferhabahir
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2012, 03:48:14 PM »

For many Rhineland Jews, it was a long round-about trip to get there through the Mediterranean and/or Iberia after the destruction of the second temple, and maybe only a handful of R-DF13 made the trip or left enough male sons.

Here from www.jewishgen.org on origins of Yiddish and some Rhineland Jews:

"The initial growth of Yiddish began in Western and West-Central Europe. At the turn of the 9th century, Charlemagne (742-814) invited the Jews of southern France and Italy to the Rhineland to encourage economic growth.  Jews had lived in the trading towns along the Rhine River long before, under the Roman Empire.  Charlemagne's initiative caused trade and economic life to develop rapidly in the Rhineland.

Then, in the Early Yiddish Period tenth and eleventh centuries, Jews from northern Italy and northern France, who spoke Jewish Romance languages (Old French or Tsorfatic (Western Laaz), and Old Italian or Italkic (Southern Laaz)) migrated to Rhineland towns along the middle and upper Rhine Valley in an area called Loter (Lotharingia);  this area is close to present-day Lorraine.  It is from these Rhineland Jews that Yiddish originated.  In their new surroundings, they adopted various medieval Germanic dialects of the region, mixing in their earlier Romance and Hebraic/Aramaic elements.  They wrote their new language in Hebrew characters, from right to left.

The collapse of the Babylonian academies took place during this Early Yiddish Period and many Babylonian teachers arrived at this time in Ashkenaz (the name used in Rabbinic literature for Germany), impacting nascent Yiddish."
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2012, 04:55:25 PM »

I am still not sure I understand. Are you basically comparing DF13* against L21*?  L21* is a small group so I suppose we havent got all its variance yet and also the surviving L21* is basically an intraclade which may simply mean  only some lines with with a more recent common ancestor have survived.  Intraclade is always a very risky way of deducing anything IMO.  The way I look at it is there are areas with both L21* and Df13* in significant numbers and there are areas that near enough only have DF13*  All we know for sure is that they are different lines and for some reason only some areas have both lines and there does seem to be a strong hint that there is a geographical pattern to this with France and the Pyrennees having a good mix of both while the continental areas to the east and the isles are very dominanted by DF13*.  The significance to me is that some areas have both and other areas pretty well only have DF13*.  They may be parallel lines butt one thing is clear - L21* is not descended from DF13* and that is pretty significant when you consider that that is nearly all there is in Germany, northern Europe and the isles (including even the remoter areas of the Celtic fringe).  The one clear conclusion is that the significant L21* (L21xDF13) on the continent is not descended from the large DF13* group which is pretty well all there is in northern Europe and the isles.  It doesnt mean that DF13* is descended from the surviving L21* lines in France and the Pyrenees but it does rule out the opposite.  I think that is big news because there are those who look too much to frequency and have tended to see L21 on the continent as coming from the isles.  Of course there are likely isles-derived L21 on the continent who have give-away isles type downstream subclades but that is a different issue from the root period of L21. Basically there is a group of L21* people in France and immediately west who simply cant be descended from the large block of Df13 L21 people in the isles and northern Europe.  These L21xDF13 people can only be derived from other L21XDF13 people.  I think that is a very important realisation and I dont think coalescence or intraclade variance is that important as after all these are all end-lines.  
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 09:12:00 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2012, 06:39:44 AM »

I double-checked the DF13 results. What I listed in my posts above is correct. Only six Frenchmen total from the France category have DF13 results, and three of those are negative. I actually went through the France category member by member and checked it. Those six are the only DF13 test results: three positives, three negatives.

The other figures I listed in my posts are correct, too. Very few continentals had ordered DF13 as of yesterday.

Apparently the difference is that I only looked at the R-L21* geographic categories, not the DF13+ subclades (which disclaimer I mentioned in one or more of my posts above). Obviously a Frenchman or a Spaniard or whoever who is DF23+ or Z253+ (or whatever) is DF13+, as well.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 06:41:58 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2012, 06:42:52 AM »

Our R-L21* Polish candidate has agreed to be tested for DF13, and the test has been ordered.
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rms2
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« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2012, 07:57:13 AM »

Our Hungarian has agreed to the DF13 test, and the test has been ordered. I hope we get a fast turnaround on it, and I am hoping the result is the more interesting minus sign right of the lucky number.

Our R-L21* Polish candidate has agreed to be tested for DF13, and the test has been ordered.

It's too bad these doggoned tests take so long! It would really be nice if we had the results by the end of the week, but you know that's not going to happen.

I hope our Croatian accepts the DF13 test offer.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2012, 12:20:59 PM »

Our Hungarian has agreed to the DF13 test, and the test has been ordered. I hope we get a fast turnaround on it, and I am hoping the result is the more interesting minus sign right of the lucky number.

Our R-L21* Polish candidate has agreed to be tested for DF13, and the test has been ordered.

.

It's too bad these doggoned tests take so long! It would really be nice if we had the results by the end of the week, but you know that's not going to happen.

I hope our Croatian accepts the DF13 test offer.

Looks to me like the French (a bit like when the random L21 testing was done) is going to be the best return on money when seeking L21* people.  A 50-50 chance and probably the only way that a decent amount of L21* will be built up so that some sort of reasonable sample exists to calculate variance of L21*.  I think right now it would be futile and I suspect the English L21* may be a Medieval subset of NW French anyway and so not likely to help with variance
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 12:21:38 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mark Jost
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« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2012, 04:19:12 PM »


I wish we could offer free DF13 and DF63 tests to all our continentals.

Ok, I put out a call for donations for Continental DF13 and DF63 testing on the Yahoo L21 forum. Your already have enought for up to four SNP tests.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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