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Author Topic: R-L21: Subclade DF21 expands again  (Read 2302 times)
Heber
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2012, 02:58:34 PM »

I neglected to mention the R-DF21 and Subclades Project, which is excellent and is administered by Dave Reynolds, who posts here.

You're probably already a member, Heber, but Dave would be a good one to advise you on this.

Thanks Rich.  I will join that project.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2012, 03:56:25 PM »


This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna


Mike,
I am the Corcoran on the first list. It looks like a Co. Galway cluster to me based on the majority of place names listed. I did the deep clade test and am back to L21 (no star). Does that make a difference?

L21 Y DNA SNP report for you:
L1-, L130-, L144-, L148-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L196-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L4-, L44-, L459+, L48-, L513-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-, U106-, U198-

From a pure STR perspective, you are an "in-betweener" as far as being possibly in 513-1113 Combo or 21-2311-Arn. You have 406s1=11 and 617=13 so you could easily have been L513+ but I see you've tested as L513- that solves that question mark.

Since one person in 21-2311-Arn is DF21+ I recommend that you test for it.  If you are DF21+, then there are other considerations to test for. If you are DF21- then I'd recommend you backup one level and test for DF13 to make sure you are DF13+.

There are four and probably five big old known subclades of DF13.  The "Big Five" are DF21, DF49, L513 (aka DF1), Z253 and Z255.  I recommend that any L21+ who matches a cluster with a known terminal SNP to consider testing for that terminal SNP, DF21 in this case. If there are no matches, my general recommendation is to test for DF13 and if DF13+ (as is probable), to test for each of the Big Five.

Unfortunately, FTDNA's old deep clade packages were built before we knew about DF13, the "Big Kahuna", and DF21, DF49, L513 , Z253 and Z255, the "Big Five."

I don't know how you will come out. This is just the sequence I'd follow if it was me.

Mike,
I came back DF13+ as expected and DF21+.
I suspect I am in the  21-2311 Arn group.
Have any of this group tested downstream of DF21.
What would you recommend as the next test.

Richard is correct. Z246 is a good suspect for you but he is even more correct that David Reynolds is the expert on DF21.

If you matched with any of P314.2 people you might test for that as an alternative but it does not appear you do.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
df.reynolds
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2012, 03:58:20 PM »

Hi Heber, assuming you are kit N11153, you are indeed grouped with a Foley and a Feeney, as variety 21-1123-Aran. You are a GD of 17/67 with Feeney, 20/67 with Foley.

Feeney is Z246-, P314.2-, and is currently testing L720; he is Y67. Foley has not done any SNP testing, but is at Y111 markers.

I see no reason to believe that your results would be any different than Feeney, if  you were to test Z246, P314.2, or L720. So not tests I would particularly recommend.

If are you looking for an opportunity to invest in additional testing, you might want to look at the Geno 2.0 test from National Geographic.
http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/product/genographic-kits/geno-2.0---genographic-project-participation-and-dna-ancestry-kit

Although the full details are not known yet, this test includes around 12,000 Y-SNPs, and at this point, no one knows exactly what we are going to find, or where. So lots of opportunity for discovery. :)

(And if you aren't N11153, please join the DF21 project, and I'll be happy to look over your results and make a recommendation.)

Regards,
david
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Heber
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2012, 05:13:11 PM »

Hi Heber, assuming you are kit N11153, you are indeed grouped with a Foley and a Feeney, as variety 21-1123-Aran. You are a GD of 17/67 with Feeney, 20/67 with Foley.

Feeney is Z246-, P314.2-, and is currently testing L720; he is Y67. Foley has not done any SNP testing, but is at Y111 markers.

I see no reason to believe that your results would be any different than Feeney, if  you were to test Z246, P314.2, or L720. So not tests I would particularly recommend.

If are you looking for an opportunity to invest in additional testing, you might want to look at the Geno 2.0 test from National Geographic.
http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/product/genographic-kits/geno-2.0---genographic-project-participation-and-dna-ancestry-kit

Although the full details are not known yet, this test includes around 12,000 Y-SNPs, and at this point, no one knows exactly what we are going to find, or where. So lots of opportunity for discovery. :)

(And if you aren't N11153, please join the DF21 project, and I'll be happy to look over your results and make a recommendation.)

Regards,
david

Thanks David and Mike. I am indeed N11153.  I noticed you have an Ely O Carroll cluster in DF21. According to ancient Gaelic genealogies the O Corcorains were a sept in the Ely O Carroll Clan and originated in the Fermanagh area in the 6th century and ended up in Ely O Carroll country of Offaly, North Tipperary, East Galway after the arrival of the Normans. This corresponds to the recorded history of my family. It will be interesting to see if other Ely O Carroll Septs such as Bowen, Dooley, Meagher/Maher, Kelly/Kealy, Flanagan, O Gara, O Hara, Corcoran, Healy, Nevin, O'Connor match the SNP. Ely O Carroll is DF21+ and - for other known SNPs so I will test for Geno 2.0 and see if we can define it further.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Heber
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2012, 06:55:49 AM »

I have updated my understanding of the migrations from M269 to DF21 (my new assignment). I have only included SNPs which have 5% or more frequency and excluded private SNPs. For example M222 reaches 20%.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763591605/
http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2012, 06:28:51 PM »

DF21 may end up with a quite diverse distribution.

I see the guy from Germany that I suspected is P314.2 (son of DF21) came through as DF21+

f208773   Reith   R-L21/DF13/DF21   21-314-P*   Germany


No one from Iberia has tested positive for DF21, but not many have tested, period. These three guys are good suspects as they match existing clusters.

fE6409   Arévalo   R-L21   21-1722     Spain
f251256   Sánchez   R-L21   21-314-P12   Spain
f89912   Rodriguez   R-L21/DF13   21-246-1417   Spain


... but France and Germany are also possibilities

f30052   Runyan   zzL21suspect   21-246-1417   France
f211522   Pestel   zzL21suspect   21-2225-EC   France
f67944   Sterling   R-L21   21-314-P*   France

f59188   Ailor   zzL21suspect   21-246-3016   Germany
f148632   Immler   R-L21   21-1722   Germany
f62278   Baumgaertner   zzL21suspect   21-425n-A1*   Germany
f37416   Kern   zzL21suspect   21-425n-A1*   Germany


It reminds me of SRY2627 a bit. Maybe they traveled together ???
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:29:35 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2012, 06:35:17 PM »

I see the guy from Germany that I suspected is P314.2 (son of DF21) came through as DF21+

f208773   Reith   R-L21/DF13/DF21   21-314-P*   Germany


Alan, the reason I suspected him as P314.2+ is that his STR signature looks like some of the P314.2 people.  David informed me he is P314.2-.  One interpretation could be that 388=13 (very slow) occurred in a lineage along with 406s1=11, then P314.2+ happened.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:36:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2012, 06:42:56 PM »

I see the guy from Germany that I suspected is P314.2 (son of DF21) came through as DF21+

f208773   Reith   R-L21/DF13/DF21   21-314-P*   Germany


Alan, the reason I suspected him as P314.2+ is that his STR signature looks like some of the P314.2 people.  David informed me he is P314.2-.  One interpretation could be that 388=13 (very slow) occurred in a lineage along with 406s1=11, then P314.2+ happened.

I believe that one of the three Iberians you list has prevously tested negative for P314.2 after he had a number of similarities with that clade.  He seems a good candidate to be a case like Reith.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:43:30 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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