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Author Topic: R-L21: Subclade DF21 expands again  (Read 2445 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: June 28, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »

This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

f163725___ Feeney___________________ R-L21/DF13/DF21______________ 21-1123-Arn_________ NNFRW___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Lettermore Island
f124898___ Feeney___________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ RKCNM___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Maumeen
f2132_____ Custer/Cursiter__________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ BGPD5___ Scotland, Orkney Islands, Sanday
f151119___ Folan____________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ XW992___ Ireland
f104374___ Faherty _________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ DGRXJ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
f209130___ Rowan____________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 3ZNCG___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea
fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna
f181797___ Folan____________________ zz predicted_________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ VNFE7___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
fN11757___ Cameron__________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ M5X29___ Scotland



Now, RMS, are you there? I have another variety I've labeled 1116 that the Stevens folks identified because several Stevens/Stephens types fit there. Although not close GD's, the 1116 people have a number of common off-modal STRs with the DF21+ person. I'm relabeling this variety as
1123-16: 390=23 385=11,11 458=16 439=11 464b=16 [Stevens]


f208061___ Stephens_________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ 6A342___ zzzUnkOrigin
f59080____ Stevens__________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ HX9ZF___ zzzUnkOrigin
f88034____ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ S23BC___ zzzUnkOrigin
yVT2R6____ Beddoes__________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ VT2R6___ England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Salop
f212967___ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ 6ZRRA___ England
f163684___ Webb_____________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ WEKT6___ England
f191665___ Johnston_________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ AUA5M___ Ireland
f7014_____ Williams_________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ Y55XQ___ England
f57563____ Cooper___________________ R-L21/DF13___________________ 1123-16_____________ 4BN3G___ UK
f124786___ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ X45FC___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN40760___ Stevens__________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ 358E9___ UK
f191492___ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ WW4G3___ zzzUnkOrigin


Johnston and Williams are a bit "iffy" for this variety because they differ at 447 and Williams at 390. Anyway, the point is someone in 1123-16 should consider an exploratory test for DF21, if they haven't already. It could just be STR convergence of two different varieties, but maybe not.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 11:47:48 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 12:26:44 PM »

This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

f163725___ Feeney___________________ R-L21/DF13/DF21______________ 21-1123-Arn_________ NNFRW___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Lettermore Island
f124898___ Feeney___________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ RKCNM___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Maumeen
f2132_____ Custer/Cursiter__________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ BGPD5___ Scotland, Orkney Islands, Sanday
f151119___ Folan____________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ XW992___ Ireland
f104374___ Faherty _________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ DGRXJ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
f209130___ Rowan____________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 3ZNCG___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea
fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna
f181797___ Folan____________________ zz predicted_________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ VNFE7___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
fN11757___ Cameron__________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ M5X29___ Scotland



Now, RMS, are you there? I have another variety I've labeled 1116 that the Stevens folks identified because several Stevens/Stephens types fit there. Although not close GD's, the 1116 people have a number of common off-modal STRs with the DF21+ person. I'm relabeling this variety as
1123-16: 390=23 385=11,11 458=16 439=11 464b=16 [Stevens]


f208061___ Stephens_________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ 6A342___ zzzUnkOrigin
f59080____ Stevens__________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ HX9ZF___ zzzUnkOrigin
f88034____ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ S23BC___ zzzUnkOrigin
yVT2R6____ Beddoes__________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ VT2R6___ England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Salop
f212967___ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ 6ZRRA___ England
f163684___ Webb_____________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ WEKT6___ England
f191665___ Johnston_________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ AUA5M___ Ireland
f7014_____ Williams_________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ Y55XQ___ England
f57563____ Cooper___________________ R-L21/DF13___________________ 1123-16_____________ 4BN3G___ UK
f124786___ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ X45FC___ zzzUnkOrigin
fN40760___ Stevens__________________ R-L21________________________ 1123-16_____________ 358E9___ UK
f191492___ Stevens__________________ zz predicted_________________ 1123-16_____________ WW4G3___ zzzUnkOrigin


Johnston and Williams are a bit "iffy" for this variety because they differ at 447 and Williams at 390. Anyway, the point is someone in 1123-16 should consider an exploratory test for DF21, if they haven't already. It could just be STR convergence of two different varieties, but maybe not.

Mike,
I am the Corcoran on the first list. It looks like a Co. Galway cluster to me based on the majority of place names listed. I did the deep clade test and am back to L21 (no star). Does that make a difference?
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 01:49:56 PM »


This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna


Mike,
I am the Corcoran on the first list. It looks like a Co. Galway cluster to me based on the majority of place names listed. I did the deep clade test and am back to L21 (no star). Does that make a difference?

L21 Y DNA SNP report for you:
L1-, L130-, L144-, L148-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L196-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L4-, L44-, L459+, L48-, L513-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-, U106-, U198-

From a pure STR perspective, you are an "in-betweener" as far as being possibly in 513-1113 Combo or 21-2311-Arn. You have 406s1=11 and 617=13 so you could easily have been L513+ but I see you've tested as L513- that solves that question mark.

Since one person in 21-2311-Arn is DF21+ I recommend that you test for it.  If you are DF21+, then there are other considerations to test for. If you are DF21- then I'd recommend you backup one level and test for DF13 to make sure you are DF13+.

There are four and probably five big old known subclades of DF13.  The "Big Five" are DF21, DF49, L513 (aka DF1), Z253 and Z255.  I recommend that any L21+ who matches a cluster with a known terminal SNP to consider testing for that terminal SNP, DF21 in this case. If there are no matches, my general recommendation is to test for DF13 and if DF13+ (as is probable), to test for each of the Big Five.

Unfortunately, FTDNA's old deep clade packages were built before we knew about DF13, the "Big Kahuna", and DF21, DF49, L513 , Z253 and Z255, the "Big Five."

I don't know how you will come out. This is just the sequence I'd follow if it was me.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 01:53:50 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 02:36:25 PM »

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

f163725___ Feeney___________________ R-L21/DF13/DF21______________ 21-1123-Arn_________ NNFRW___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Lettermore Island
f124898___ Feeney___________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ RKCNM___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Maumeen
f2132_____ Custer/Cursiter__________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ BGPD5___ Scotland, Orkney Islands, Sanday
f151119___ Folan____________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ XW992___ Ireland
f104374___ Faherty _________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ DGRXJ___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
f209130___ Rowan____________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 3ZNCG___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Loughrea
fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna
f181797___ Folan____________________ zz predicted_________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ VNFE7___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
fN11757___ Cameron__________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ M5X29___ Scotland

I figured out what the "Arn" in 21-1123-Arn is for -  Aran Island.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/flaherty/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Faherty/Flaherty people look like they might be DF21+.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 02:51:14 PM »


This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna


Mike,
I am the Corcoran on the first list. It looks like a Co. Galway cluster to me based on the majority of place names listed. I did the deep clade test and am back to L21 (no star). Does that make a difference?

L21 Y DNA SNP report for you:
L1-, L130-, L144-, L148-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L196-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L4-, L44-, L459+, L48-, L513-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-, U106-, U198-

From a pure STR perspective, you are an "in-betweener" as far as being possibly in 513-1113 Combo or 21-2311-Arn. You have 406s1=11 and 617=13 so you could easily have been L513+ but I see you've tested as L513- that solves that question mark.

Since one person in 21-2311-Arn is DF21+ I recommend that you test for it.  If you are DF21+, then there are other considerations to test for. If you are DF21- then I'd recommend you backup one level and test for DF13 to make sure you are DF13+.

There are four and probably five big old known subclades of DF13.  The "Big Five" are DF21, DF49, L513 (aka DF1), Z253 and Z255.  I recommend that any L21+ who matches a cluster with a known terminal SNP to consider testing for that terminal SNP, DF21 in this case. If there are no matches, my general recommendation is to test for DF13 and if DF13+ (as is probable), to test for each of the Big Five.

Unfortunately, FTDNA's old deep clade packages were built before we knew about DF13, the "Big Kahuna", and DF21, DF49, L513 , Z253 and Z255, the "Big Five."

I don't know how you will come out. This is just the sequence I'd follow if it was me.

Mike, Thanks. I will follow that sequence.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 07:42:41 PM »

I tested for DF21 awhile back, soon after the test was available, but I came up DF21-.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 07:42:53 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 10:39:23 PM »

I tested for DF21 awhile back, soon after the test was available, but I came up DF21-.
Ooops.  I forgot I changed my spreadsheet so that the only DF13 is relevant downstream of L21 (if it is not tested) so I didn't see your DF21- result. Should've checked the project Y DNA SNP report.
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »

There are four and probably five big old known subclades of DF13.  The "Big Five" are DF21, DF49, L513 (aka DF1), Z253 and Z255.  I recommend that any L21+ who matches a cluster with a known terminal SNP to consider testing for that terminal SNP, DF21 in this case. If there are no matches, my general recommendation is to test for DF13 and if DF13+ (as is probable), to test for each of the Big Five.

I have tested DF13+ and DF49- Z253-  so my next option is DF21 but not L513??

Is there a updated tree for the SNPs downstream of L21
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 08:59:59 AM by Mike Forsyth » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 09:05:50 AM »

The ISOGG R Tree has recently been updated:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Things used to be pretty simple. Way back when it wasn't too hard to be the master of just about every y haplogroup. Now it's tough enough just to keep up with a couple of subclades!
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 09:10:53 AM »

For me, I want pretty good odds of a positive result before I spend even the $29 for a single SNP. Sometimes I wonder if I even care past L21 or if I should just sit back and wait for whole-genome testing, which I think is just around the corner. I tell myself I should start saving money for that, since it will probably be at least $1,000 a pop when it first becomes available, perhaps even more expensive.

I have thought about ordering Z253, but I haven't seen any Z253+ guys with haplotypes like mine.

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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 11:01:07 AM »


Hi Mike

My name is James Selbie. My Ysearch No is 7D6QQ.

I have ordered an update on my strs to 67. This is due on 6th August.  I have tested positive for DF21.

I am thinking of testing one other snp just now. I thought of either S190,L362,Df5, L720 or L745.

I wonder if you would be kind enough to advise me which of those snps ( or others) would be most useful?

Regards
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 11:22:18 AM »

Does anybody know what SNPs the whole-genome testing is going to entail downstream of L21?

I think I will choose to spend the $29 bucks a pop and keep current. It may also help others with haplotypes like mine
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 12:09:38 PM »


Hi Mike

My name is James Selbie. My Ysearch No is 7D6QQ.

I have ordered an update on my strs to 67. This is due on 6th August.  I have tested positive for DF21.

I am thinking of testing one other snp just now. I thought of either S190,L362,Df5, L720 or L745.

I wonder if you would be kind enough to advise me which of those snps ( or others) would be most useful?

Regards

It's hard to tell too much without 67 markers.  I don't think L745 applies to DF21 though as there L745+ people who are DF21-.  I know that L362 is downstream of P314.2 so since you are P314.2- that eliminates that possibility. S190 is a possibility but it is apparently relegated to Little Scots cluster people so I don't think you fit that.

DF5 and L720 are possibilities for you as a DF21+ P314.2- person. DF5 is downstream of Z246 so I'd test for Z246 that first.  If you end up being Z246- then I'd proceed to L720. If you are Z246+ then we have to consider DF25 next.

Hopefully the chart here helps you see these relationships:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 12:50:58 PM »

Hopefully the chart here helps you see these relationships:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

Thanks for posting this link..This makes it much more clear to a novice like myself..
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2012, 07:05:43 AM »

Does anybody know what SNPs the whole-genome testing is going to entail downstream of L21?

I think I will choose to spend the $29 bucks a pop and keep current. It may also help others with haplotypes like mine

All of them, including many we don't know about yet. Whole-genome testing means your entire genome is tested, i.e., everything you've got genetically.

That is what is exciting about it. It will reveal everything, not just your y-dna but also your mtDNA and autosomal dna, as well.
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2012, 09:49:30 AM »

so it would be similar to what Family Finder offers,but with the added known SNPs on the 23rd pair of Chromosomes..

After reviewing the graph posted above, I wasn't aware of all the new or "relatively new" SNPs downstream of L21...Perhaps this one at a time at $29 is not such a great idea..
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2012, 05:18:33 PM »

so it would be similar to what Family Finder offers,but with the added known SNPs on the 23rd pair of Chromosomes..

After reviewing the graph posted above, I wasn't aware of all the new or "relatively new" SNPs downstream of L21...Perhaps this one at a time at $29 is not such a great idea..

Proper planning is a good idea. There is a time to test for single SNPs and there is a time to pool resources and do the Walk The Y type of testing to cast a wide net. Then, the rest of the group can do single SNP tests to validate what's what.

First, I think it is important to get tested to at least 67 markers and then recruit potential matches for off-modal STR signatures for your potential cluster. In my opinion, the recruiting should never stop. Recruit, encourage upgrades to 67 markers and then you have the option of pooling resources for whole genome types of testing if that is what you want.

You never know what you'll find out in your recruiting. I've found an affinity to Wales for my own cluster which I wasn't predicting but perhaps should have expected. Now I've also got a guy from Sweden and France with a potential match from Finland.  At some point, some patterns will provide clarity in what might have happened.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 05:19:14 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2012, 06:16:31 PM »

I am just getting starting to understand the ins and outs of genetic genealogy, but have a pretty thorough handle on the mythology and history, so I thought I would share a bit about what I know since you folks have helped me so much. I have looked into it from various angles, because although I am an Ó Maol Chonaire (Roscommon Conroy/Conry), my gg-grandmother was the only child of The O'Neill Clanaboy Charles Henry O'Neill of The Feeva in County Antrim and Dublin. She was the last O'Neill of the Feeva born at Feeva House, we are called the O'Neill Conroys for this reason. I had my 67 markers done, had no real close matches, and then got tested for DF-21+ recently which came back positive.

One issue I have heard discussed a lot in the various forums is the origin of L-21 and whether it is in fact Iberian. There are a few things I thought I would point out about this that are not being accounted for so far as I have seen.

One is the location of the Tower of Bréoghan. Íth was said to have spotted Ireland from the tower, and it is often said to be on the coast of modern day Spain. Others have made the case that the location of the tower was actually in Brittany, which would be a lot more plausible to spy Ireland from. Seeing as neither France or Spain existed at that time, perhaps France was seen as part of the Iberian Peninsula?

One thing to keep in mind with the myths is that they are based in reality, but some details were considered unimportant, some confused over being passed down repeatedly, and some changed intentionally for various political and religious reasons. At the same time the way of druidic families like my own was a science, and required intensive training. So while I would take them with a grain of salt, they in fact are valuable, particularly when combined with solid scientific data like DNA profiles.

As far as some questioning whether M-222+ is Uí Néill or not, that is a complicated issue. Some have made the case that a recent ancestor of Niall Noígiallach was in fact a Romanised Briton soldier. It gets further complicated by the fact that there is known to have been a non-paternal event in the Ó Néill Clan not long after the adoption of Ó Néill as a surname. So the vast majority of Royal Ó Néills are a different haplotype known as Ó Néill Variety.

The origins of my surname's history are similarly murky. Said to descend from Máiné Mór, it seems that in fact we don't. Further complicating matters, it seems Máiné was also not a descendant of the Three Collas. However I think it is worthwhile to point out that there is a relation between all these groups, just not a direct chronological progression. It seems they did take some pains to not say completely unrelated groups were related, but to change the relationships to suit the needs of the day.

It is not suprising that a lot of this confusion comes from the time that Ireland was evangelised. Older myths were likely altered and the timeline altered to match up with biblical stories and timelines. From Niall Noígiallach back the kings were all pagan, so any biblical mythology from that point back was purely ficticious, although existing stories would have been altered to fit this biblical mythology. However these oral traditions weren't written down until much later, often the 9th or 10th centuries.

Going back to the Mílesian invasion, if L-21 arose in the Caucasus around 4000 years ago, and the stories of Fenius Farsaidh, Niall, Goidheal Glas, and  his wife Scota of Egypt (possibly Meritaten, daughter of Akhenaten) are true, is it not entirely plausible that our Y-DNA does come from these individuals, and they were small enough in number and a tightly enough knit group that they moved collectively until reaching France, multiplied there somewhat and left descendants before striking off for Ireland?

Also, the Tuatha De Dannan and Cruithneach who were already in Ireland when the Gaels arrived were said to be related to the Gaels. So from the definition of Gaels being descendants of Goidheal Glas, is it not likely that the earlier groups migrated across Britain, and then into Ireland?

In any event one thing I do know for sure is that movement between particularly Ulster and Alba, and between Munster/Leinster and Wales was ongoing and reciprocating, so trying to draw firm distinctions between these populations is quite ridiculous. The Cruithneach are the Picts, and the Gaels are the Dal Riadans. The Tuatha Dé never went anywhere just many of their kings were conquered by the Gaels. As each population came they integrated over time. Even Brittany had close ties to the rest of the Gaelic world. A lot of the invasion stories are just about the leaders, not the vast majority of the population.

In any event we need to encourage people in the projects to get tested for DF-21, M-222, etc, because I know I was quite disappointed to pay so much money for what was essentially a set of numbers which allowed me to make guesstimates as to who I might be related to.

BTW the Hackenthorns who live near the Danube in Switzerland were relatively close matches, perhaps they are candidates for DF-21 testing? Anyway thanks for all the information shared, it really makes this a lot more interesting when you figure out how you can apply this stuff, and the amateur researchers are really leading the charge in this field.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 06:19:06 PM by omaolchonaire » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 06:55:23 PM »

One thing to keep in mind with the myths is that they are based in reality

That is a very optimistic statement. See European national origin stories.

Quote
The Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) has fascinated generations. Compiled in the late 11th century, it tells a stirring story of invaders battling for Ireland. Like Geoffrey of Monmouth's fanciful 12th-century History of the Kings of Britain, with its tales of Arthur, it was accepted for centuries as an accurate history. Yet both have only legend and supposition to offer where they try to cover prehistory. So why would either book be taken seriously in today's more critical world? Within academia they are not. R. A. Stewart Macalister, who translated the Lebor Gabála Érenn into English, declared: "There is not a single element of genuine historical detail, in the strict sense of the word, anywhere in the whole compilation."

Yet there is that tantalising hope of some scrap to bridge the yawning gap in our knowledge. Celtic scholar Thomas Francis O'Rahilly (1883–1953) postulated four waves of invaders into Ireland, based partly on his interpretation of the Lebor Gabála Érenn. The fourth and final invasion, he thought, brought the Gaelic-speakers. Thus far he follows the Lebor Gabála Érenn. But while O'Rahilly thought the Gaels came from southwest Gaul (now France), the 11th-century story tells of the final conquest of Ireland from Iberia by the Milesians, or sons of Míl Espáine. The Milesians are painted as the descendants of a Scythian prince called Fénius Farsaid, whose grandson created the Irish language. His descendants wandered the world for 440 years before settling in the Iberian peninsula, the story goes. One of his descendants supposedly saw Ireland from the top of Breogan’s Tower, in Brigantia, in far-off Spain and set off towards it with thrice thirty warriors.

The myth was boosted by early genetic studies, which found high levels of Y-DNA R1b in both countries. It was later realised that R1b dominates the whole of Western Europe. Worse still for the romantic image of Míl Espáine was the discovery that the subclade of R1b overwhelming common in Ireland (L21) was also common in Britain and France, but extremely rare in Iberia. Nor do the Irish cluster close to Iberians in studies of a much wider range of genetic markers. Instead they overlap with their nearest neighbours, the British. One such study concentrating on the British Isles found that Dubliners had a vanishingly small Iberian element, less than that in people from south-east England.

So whatever the Milesian myth is telling us, it is not the true story of the birth of a nation. The tale attempts to fit the Gaels into a biblical setting. Iafeth [Japheth] is pictured as the patriarch of the nations of "Asia Minor, Armenia, Media, the People of Scythia; and of him are the inhabitants of all Europe." This was standard thinking for Christian writers of the time, following the Jewish historian Josephus (37-c.100 AD) and Isidore of Seville (c.560-635). Increasingly complex genealogies from Noah were created. It also borrows from the early Christian writer Orosius. It was he who claimed that from the southern promontory of Ireland one could see far-off Brigantia, a city of Gallaecia (North-West Spain), which the Irish of the area well knew to be nonsense.

Míl Espáine himself is simply an Irish version of the Latin miles Hispaniae (soldier of Spain). The earliest surviving version of the tale appears in the 8th-century Historia Brittonum. It simply claims that three sons of a Spanish soldier arrived in Ireland with thirty ships. A mass of fake genealogy was grafted onto the scheme. In the Lebor Gabála Érenn, his sons Éber and Erimón divide the kingship of Ireland between them. Éber, presented as the founding father of the Eóghanachta, takes the southern half, while Erimón takes the north. This division supplants an earlier concept of Ireland being divided into five parts. So it was probably cooked up in the 8th century AD to give a respectably ancient ancestry to the newly dominant dynasties of the Uí Néill and Eóghanachta, who had risen to prominence in the north and south respectively. In short the whole concoction is nothing more than a learned fiction, and does not preserve any genuine Irish traditions.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 08:18:00 AM by Jean M » Logged
Dubhthach
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 07:07:14 PM »

The Tuatha Dé weren't a race, they were our Gods. Describing them as a race of men is how they were written into the new syntheised "grand history" by Christian monks in the 7th century onwards.

The prime example is Lugh, who is a reflex of the pan-Celtic Luggus. For example the city of Lyon in France is Lug
  • dunon (Dunon = Dún in Irish)

Nuadha is cognate with Welsh Nudd and the Brythonic god Nodens.

Bríd (Brighid) is cognate to Brythonic/Gaulish Brigantia

Ogham is congate with Gaulish Ogmios.

Lír is cognate with Welsh Ler.

The book of invasion account is a deliberate political creation of it's time (7-9th centuries). This is obviously by the concession of having Ireland inherited by the two sons of Míl -- from whom later would descended Conn and Mugh Nuadhat. From Conn of course would come the Connactha/Uí Néill rulers of Leath Cuinn (northern half), from Mugh Nuadhat likewise the synthetic historians would have us believe came the Eoghanacht.

In reality they were basically saying the division of country between two "power-blocks" was always the same by claiming that both were descended from two sons of the one man (Míl). Míl name itself is a calque from latin

Míl Espáine = Miles Hispaniae (soldier of Spain)

There is no mention of him before the 9th century.

The Ó Néill family lost the kingship of the Cenél nEógain (and thus of the "In Tuaisceart" -- Aileach) to their near kin the MacLochlainn. Following the death of Flaithbertach Ó Néill in 1036 they lost the kingship for over 7 generations. The next man to bear the surname Ó Néill (Ua Néill) to have the kingship was nearly 130 years later. 8 generations in that timeperiod (including when Flaithbertach was still alive is kinda tight).

There is also the fact that the newly arisen Ó Néill was now in the East of Tyrone around Tulach Óg (the site of later Ó Néill inaguration until destruction of inaguration stone by Lord Mountjoy in 1602) and who had ties with wider parts of Airghialla via fosterage etc. If you ask me this is when the NPE occurred as the Ó Néill family as such was fairly devastated in the wars within the Cenél nEoghain in the 11th and 12th century.

Either way you do still see Ó Néill with M222, however it's obviously the "chiefly line" of the high middle ages wasn't M222. The Ó Catháin and related names (MacHenry, MacCloskey) acts as a good control, they seperated from the mainline a century before the Ó Néill. They remained the primary "sub-king" of Tír nÉoghain -- with the right to inagurate the Ó Néill. To this day they show up as M222+
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2012, 07:04:22 AM »

RMS....Mikewww

Thanks for the help guys!!
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 12:22:25 PM »


This is just one more example of the importance of exploratory SNP test. DF21, downstream of L21 and DF13, is old and no one STR signature is available to define it. Any R-DF13* person could be DF21+.

I have a speculative variety I labeled 9923-Arn in the Haplotype_Data_R-L21 spreadsheet. I can't remember what "Arn" stands for but one if its members named it related to a location in Ireland or Scotland. This is variety just came up with a DF21+ P314.2- person. He is f163725 Feeney. I'm relabeling the variety as
21-1123-Arn: 390=23 385=11/10,11/12 459b=9 448=20 464a,b=16,16 {DF21} [Feeney]

fN11153___ Corcoran_________________ R-L21________________________ 21-1123-Arn_________ 8KW7A___ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Confort, Portumna


Mike,
I am the Corcoran on the first list. It looks like a Co. Galway cluster to me based on the majority of place names listed. I did the deep clade test and am back to L21 (no star). Does that make a difference?

L21 Y DNA SNP report for you:
L1-, L130-, L144-, L148-, L159.2-, L165-, L176.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L196-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L4-, L44-, L459+, L48-, L513-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-, U106-, U198-

From a pure STR perspective, you are an "in-betweener" as far as being possibly in 513-1113 Combo or 21-2311-Arn. You have 406s1=11 and 617=13 so you could easily have been L513+ but I see you've tested as L513- that solves that question mark.

Since one person in 21-2311-Arn is DF21+ I recommend that you test for it.  If you are DF21+, then there are other considerations to test for. If you are DF21- then I'd recommend you backup one level and test for DF13 to make sure you are DF13+.

There are four and probably five big old known subclades of DF13.  The "Big Five" are DF21, DF49, L513 (aka DF1), Z253 and Z255.  I recommend that any L21+ who matches a cluster with a known terminal SNP to consider testing for that terminal SNP, DF21 in this case. If there are no matches, my general recommendation is to test for DF13 and if DF13+ (as is probable), to test for each of the Big Five.

Unfortunately, FTDNA's old deep clade packages were built before we knew about DF13, the "Big Kahuna", and DF21, DF49, L513 , Z253 and Z255, the "Big Five."

I don't know how you will come out. This is just the sequence I'd follow if it was me.

Mike,
I came back DF13+ as expected and DF21+.
I suspect I am in the  21-2311 Arn group.
Have any of this group tested downstream of DF21.
What would you recommend as the next test.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



sernam
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 01:10:07 PM »

" Some have made the case that a recent ancestor of Niall Noígiallach was in fact a Romanised Briton soldier. "

???
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 01:34:52 PM »



Mike,
I came back DF13+ as expected and DF21+.
I suspect I am in the  21-2311 Arn group.
Have any of this group tested downstream of DF21.
What would you recommend as the next test.

I don't mean to answer for Mike, and I can't tell you anything about his clusters, but the next logical step after a DF21+ result is to test for Z246.

Of course, you can take a look at the P314.2 and L720 categories at the R-L21 Plus Project to see if testing for those SNPs might be more appropriate.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 01:35:44 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 02:43:19 PM »

I neglected to mention the R-DF21 and Subclades Project, which is excellent and is administered by Dave Reynolds, who posts here.

You're probably already a member, Heber, but Dave would be a good one to advise you on this.
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