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Castlebob
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« on: June 16, 2012, 01:44:42 AM »

Hello All,
I'm of Anglo-Scottish Border stock & am L21-, L176.2-, Z196- & have just found out that I'm DF27-.
I'm not sure of the relevance, though! I do know that most of the Border names I've looked at over the years tend to be L21+, whereas my surname are generally L21-.
Has DF27- made major inroads into the huge R-P312 group?
Cheers
Bob
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 03:49:44 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 05:37:16 AM »

Of course it will be interesting that you test all the other subclades of R-P312* to understand where is put your DF27- and it would be useful that you say your surname and your STRs if you have. And above all to demonstrate that it isn't a joke.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 08:14:29 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Castlebob
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2012, 05:59:53 AM »

My surname is Armstrong. FTDNA stated I was R1b1b2a1b. Since this result came in they have removed my designation from my Haplotree page. Is this because I tested negative for DF27?
Cheers
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2012, 06:25:18 AM »

My surname is Armstrong. FTDNA stated I was R1b1b2a1b. Since this result came in they have removed my designation from my Haplotree page. Is this because I tested negative for DF27?
Cheers
Bob

That's weird. You did have a P312+ test result, didn't you, Bob? Now that's gone, as well.

If I were you, I would email or call FTDNA about that. Hopefully, it's just an IT glitch.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:25:38 AM by rms2 » Logged

chris1
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2012, 06:42:56 AM »

Hello All,
I'm of Anglo-Scottish Border stock & am L21-, L176.2-, Z196- & have just found out that I'm DF27-.
I'm not sure of the relevance, though! I do know that most of the Border names I've looked at over the years tend to be L21+, whereas my surname are generally L21-.
Has DF27- made major inroads into the huge R-P312* group?
Cheers
Bob

Hi Bob. It is interesting that you are DF27-, I though there was a chance your group might be DF27+. I match the previously P312* Rox2 cluster (L21- Z196-, DF19-, L238-, L617-) that has a similar geographical distribution and two members have just tested DF27+. I notice that a member of another previously P312* cluster, Jewett (Yorkshire, 45214), has tested DF27+ too. Their group contains Whitesides and Langleys. There seem to be far more DF27+ results for those previously P312* than DF27-.
Chris.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2012, 06:55:14 AM »

Interesting Chris.
I'm looking for anything to separate the various Border surnames. It's useful to know that you've seen DF27+ as being more common. The bulk of our Armstrong Surname Group will be L21- as opposed to the more common Borders' L21+.
As ever, that area was overlayed by several groups: Brythonic Celts; Angles; Anglo-Danes; Anglo- Normans; Flemish mercenaries; plus an assortment of folk from Lincolnshire, including some Bretons. There are Pictish remains in Liddesdale, Roxburghshire, too!
It would be useful if more Borderers would test for L21 as the numbers who have so far isn't large enough for solid research
Cheers
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 12:47:52 PM »

Further to the removal of my previous Deep Clade HG designation, (see beginning of this thread) ,  following my DF27- result, FTDNA are performing a further test to see what the new info reveals.
I notice that the following surnames are DF27-
Armstrong; MacFarlane; Jones; Duncan; Hatton & Haywood.
Too early to predict a pattern, but if forced to hazard a guess I'd opt for Brythonic Celt!
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 01:25:32 PM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
samIsaack
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »

Further to the removal of my previous Deep Clade HG designation, (see beginning of this thread) , plus it's removal following my DF27- result, FTDNA are performing a further test to see what the new info reveals.
I notice that the following surnames are DF27-:
Armstrong; MacFarlane; Jones; Duncan; Hatton & Haywood.
Too early to predict a pattern, but if forced to hazard a guess I'd opt for Brythonic Celt!
Cheers,
Bob


From what I gather there aren't any rox2 people from Wales.. seems to be a Northern English, Lowland Scots, Ulster Scots sort of grouping. Which I find fascinating that there is a group such as this, that is found primarily this far north belonging to DF27.. which seems to be having an identity crisis.

Heres a link to some info on the rox cluster https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Castlebob
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 09:44:30 AM »

A possible connection between the Armstrong & Duncan surnames (both DF27-) is geographical. When David I of Scotland wed Maud, daughter of Waltheof, David had signeural powers over a dozen Northumbrian/Cumbrian towns that Armstrongs later inhabited.
The Victorians promoted Siward as Armstrong progenitor, conveniently forgetting that the line died out when Waltheof left no male issue! However, Armstrongs were first recorded in Cumberland in 1223, plus were taxed for land in Northumberland - held at one time by David.
It is said that Duncan wed a sister of Siward, cementing the links above.
Tracing the Scottish kings back leads to Picts & Dalriadic Scots.
Forgive my amateurish stab at this, but I'm assuming that the Jones & MacFarlane surnames would fall under the Celtic banner, & their early results are also DF27-.
Obviously this is all using insufficient data, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 10:36:45 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
samIsaack
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 01:39:44 PM »

A possible connection between the Armstrong & Duncan surnames (both DF27-) is geographical. When David I of Scotland wed Maud, daughter of Waltheof, David had signeural powers over a dozen Northumbrian/Cumbrian towns that Armstrongs later inhabited.
The Victorians promoted Siward as Armstrong progenitor, conveniently forgetting that the line died out when Waltheof left no male issue! However, Armstrongs were first recorded in Cumberland in 1223, plus were taxed for land in Northumberland - held at one time by David.
It is said that Duncan wed a sister of Siward, cementing the links above.
Tracing the Scottish kings back leads to Picts & Dalriadic Scots.
Forgive my amateurish stab at this, but I'm assuming that the Jones & MacFarlane surnames would fall under the Celtic banner, & their early results are also DF27-.
Obviously this is all using insufficient data, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Cheers,
Bob

What would you label DF27 as being places such as these if not Celtic?
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Castlebob
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2012, 02:03:28 PM »

A cursory glance through the Duncan, MacFarlane & Hatton surname origins suggests Brythonic Celt or Dalriadic links. I'm loath to pigeonhole surnames too tightly into tribal groups, Sam,  as some suggest Picts were Celts, while others are equally adamant they weren't close cousins. I don't have the expertise, hence my reticence.
I mention Picts as many ignore the presence of Picts on the Border - particularly Roxburghshire.
Obviously we're looking at minute samples at this stage, but DF27+ is found on the Continent & England, while DF27- seems to be restricted to the British Isles, with one in Sweden. Could the Swede be a product of the Viking slave trade in Ireland?
Cheers,
Bob
PS For the record: Before my DF27- result, I'd have plumped for a progenitor as follows: 1st Brythonic Celt; 2nd Norman; 3rd Fleming
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 05:07:36 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
chris1
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2012, 03:26:07 PM »

A cursory glance through the Duncan, MacFarlane & Hatton surname origins suggests Dalriadic links. I'm loath to pigeonhole surnames too tightly into tribal groups, Sam,  as some suggest Picts were Celts, while others are equally adamant they weren't close cousins. I don't have the expertise, hence my reticence.
I mention Picts as many ignore the presence of Picts on the Border - particularly Roxburghshire.
Obviously we're looking at minute samples at this stage, but DF27+ is found on the Continent & England, while DF27- seems to be restricted to the British Isles, with one in Sweden. Could the Swede be a product of the Viking slave trade in Ireland?
Cheers,
Bob
PS For the record: Before my DF27- result, I'd have plumped for a progenitor as follows: 1st Brythonic Celt; 2nd Norman; 3rd Fleming
Hi Bob. If the Swedish DF27- result you mean is 29135, then he is L238+ which is thought to be a different subclade of P312 in its own right to DF27. L238 seems to be a P312 subclade that is mainly found in Scandinavia so far. Chris
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Castlebob
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2012, 03:36:50 PM »

Thanks Chris. As you've probably gathered, I'm out of my depth re DNA issues. I'm more at home with old-style paper-trail genealogy! FTDNA are updating  my Deep Clade test to take into account the latest developments, so I'll know more soon.
Your input is greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Bob
EDIT: My R-P312 HG R1b1b2a1b has reappeared on my Haplotree page!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 03:51:32 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
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