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Author Topic: Did any DF23 in France come from southwest Britain?  (Read 1738 times)
eochaidh
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« on: June 13, 2012, 11:20:38 AM »

No one would ever doubt the genetic impact of the Norman Invasion on Britain and Ireland. It is accepted that anyone with a Norman name in Ireland has a Continental origin. I myself am swimming in Norman blood because of my father's Taaffe family and my mother's Butler family. My question is did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

What are the chances that a French DF23 result is from a man whose ancestors migrated from Britan? Is there any chane at all? Obviously it would be rediculous to think that once in Amorica any Britain or his descendants could have spread any more than a few miles from where they landed 1600 years ago, but what if a Breton is found to be DF23, could he be linked to the earlier migration?

Brun is a French DF23, but he must be ruled out because he isn't from Brittany, n'est pas? But, let's really take a walk on the wild side! Suppose, just suppose, that Brun has Y-line ancestors who landed in Amorica and then ventured out over 1600 years! I know, I know, we're not talking about people as smart as Normans, but still, it may have happened once!

Luckily Normans were smarter than the Britons who migrated to Amorica, or else all of Ireland's Normans would be concentrated in Wexford.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 11:27:43 AM »

I looked up your Statistics for : TAAFFE
on World Names. You can see other world areas the name is found in.

http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Main.aspx

Roots of this name:

Surname  Group  Subgroup  Language

TAAFFE  CELTIC  IRISH  ENGLISH
Powered by Onomap
 
The roots of a name are derived from Onomap which is a research methodology that classifies names into groups of common cultural ethnic and linguistic origins.
 
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
eochaidh
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 11:39:27 AM »

I looked up your Statistics for : TAAFFE
on World Names. You can see other world areas the name is found in.

http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Main.aspx

Roots of this name:

Surname  Group  Subgroup  Language

TAAFFE  CELTIC  IRISH  ENGLISH
Powered by Onomap
 
The roots of a name are derived from Onomap which is a research methodology that classifies names into groups of common cultural ethnic and linguistic origins.
 


Thanks Mark.

Yes, and if you look on Rootsweb of Family Search you will find generations of Taaffes in Austria-Hungary. Eduardo Taaffe was a Viscount in Germany and his ancestor Theobold Taffe was also a Count. I am not sure what haplogroup my Taaffes belong to (Maggie Taaffe was a paternal great grandmother), but the ones I have seen on Ysearch are at least R1b.

The important thing to remember is that NO Taaffe Y-line DNA will ever be found on the continent. Things like that are simply not possible, or at least highly improbable. Actually, NO Irish y-line DNA from any Irish family could account for a Continental result. But, since the Taaffes were of Norman ancestry there may be a chance  :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:05:44 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 11:41:00 AM »

... It is accepted that anyone with a Norman name in Ireland has a Continental origin.

Not by me. Not at all. I would expect that some Irish paternal lineages adopted Norman"esque" surnames for a variety of reasons. I also expect that some who came with the Cambro-Normams adopted Gaelic surnames.

My question is did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

I would expect there should be some impact from old Brits leaving Britain for Brittany during the Anglo-Saxon era.  The only way I know to look for that is to look at the diversity and matching for the French L21 haplotypes in contrast to Welsh or Western Britain haplotypes.   I can't say it is apparent one way or another other than general diversity for L21 seems to be higher in France.  That just indicates that at least some L21 in France has been there a long time.

... What are the chances that a French DF23 result is from a man whose ancestors migrated from Britan? Is there any chane at all?

Of course it is possible, I don't know what the odds are though.  All I know is to look at the surnames and the haplotypes and also look for any ties of the surnames to historical information.

... Obviously it would be rediculous to think that once in Amorica any Britain or his descendants could have spread any more than a few miles from where they landed 1600 years ago, but what if a Breton is found to be DF23, could he be linked to the earlier migration?

Brun is a French DF23, but he must be ruled out because he isn't from Brittany, n'est pas? But, let's really take a walk on the wild side! Suppose, just suppose, that Brun has Y-line ancestors who landed in Amorica and then ventured out over 1600 years! I know, I know, we're not talking about people as smart as Normans, but still, it may have happened once!

Luckily Normans were smarter than the Britons who migrated to Amorica, or else all of Ireland's Normans would be concentrated in Wexford.

There is no need for sarcasm. Since you are using words like "ridiculous" and you are proclaiming that Normans are generally smarter it appears you are being sarcastic.   If we are wasting space, let's do it with good humour instead, so we can at least enjoy a good laugh.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 11:41:23 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 11:50:41 AM »

It should be remembered that any DF23 that would have come from Britain to Amorica would have arrived about 1600 years ago. That would have an effect on haplotypes. Also, it would before the current suename system in France was in place. So even a French result with a native French surname and a haplotype removed from southwest Britain could still be a product of the 5th century migration.

I enjoy sarcasm as much as Mr. Rocca enjoys hyperbole  :)
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 12:08:59 PM »

It should be remembered that any DF23 that would have come from Britain to Amorica would have arrived about 1600 years ago. That would have an effect on haplotypes. Also, it would before the current suename system in France was in place. So even a French result with a native French surname and a haplotype removed from southwest Britain could still be a product of the 5th century migration.

I enjoy sarcasm as much as Mr. Rocca enjoys hyperbole  :)

What about logic? Do you enjoy that?

Can you demonstrate through haplotype information that most of the L21 in France is from Britain?  how about a third?  

There is no doubt that some L21 has migrated from the Isles to other places.   The question is how much moved from the Isles to France?  How much French L21 is from the Isles?  You pick your number.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 12:12:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 12:22:12 PM »

It should be remembered that any DF23 that would have come from Britain to Amorica would have arrived about 1600 years ago. That would have an effect on haplotypes. Also, it would before the current suename system in France was in place. So even a French result with a native French surname and a haplotype removed from southwest Britain could still be a product of the 5th century migration.

I enjoy sarcasm as much as Mr. Rocca enjoys hyperbole  :)

What about logic? Do you enjoy that?

Can you demonstrate through haplotype information that most of the L21 in France is from Britain?  how about a third?  

There is no doubt that some L21 has migrated from the Isles to other places.   The question is how much moved from the Isles to France?  How much French L21 is from the Isles?  You pick your number.

I love logic! However, probability and statistics aren't the same as logic. That's why they were two different classes in school!

Well, I could pick a number but it's unprovable. Yes, you could go by probability and statistics, but not at the expense of logic.  I'd have to go with "some" as I always do. "Some" of the DF23 found in France is probably from the migration form Britain. And thinking otherwise would be illogical.

Speaking of wasting space, Mike, you wouldn't have believed what went happened on this forum last week!! Some guy and that History lady had a big argument and it went on for pages!! Nowhere near as much space as I take up, but amazing nevertheless. :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 12:23:12 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2012, 01:00:14 PM »

It should be remembered that any DF23 that would have come from Britain to Amorica would have arrived about 1600 years ago. That would have an effect on haplotypes. Also, it would before the current suename system in France was in place. So even a French result with a native French surname and a haplotype removed from southwest Britain could still be a product of the 5th century migration.

I enjoy sarcasm as much as Mr. Rocca enjoys hyperbole  :)

What about logic? Do you enjoy that?

Can you demonstrate through haplotype information that most of the L21 in France is from Britain?  how about a third?  

There is no doubt that some L21 has migrated from the Isles to other places.   The question is how much moved from the Isles to France?  How much French L21 is from the Isles?  You pick your number.

I love logic! However, probability and statistics aren't the same as logic. That's why they were two different classes in school!

Well, I could pick a number but it's unprovable. Yes, you could go by probability and statistics, but not at the expense of logic.  I'd have to go with "some" as I always do. "Some" of the DF23 found in France is probably from the migration form Britain. And thinking otherwise would be illogical.

Speaking of wasting space, Mike, you wouldn't have believed what went happened on this forum last week!! Some guy and that History lady had a big argument and it went on for pages!! Nowhere near as much space as I take up, but amazing nevertheless. :)

Wasting space is when you don't really have anything to say.  Yelling out the window works too.
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sernam
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2012, 01:38:16 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taafe (Taffy) a Welsh name? I'm assuming you know most "Normans" in Britain weren't actually Norman
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 01:44:36 PM by sernam » Logged
Jdean
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 01:43:16 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taffy a Welsh name?

That was my guess :)
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eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2012, 01:53:52 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taafe (Taffy) a Welsh name? I'm assuming you know most "Normans" in Britain weren't actually Norman
I thought the migration from Britain took place in the 5th century (the 400s AD), but I am a very stupid person.

The name Taaffe is of Welsh origin. It is pronounced Taff not Taffy.  Even I am not that stupid. It is spelled Tath in Irish with a fada (accent) over the "a".

EDIT: Actually, the name Tath (Taaffe) originated in Ireland from the Welsh name for David. I would say it's safe to assume that the first Taaffes in Ireland were of Welsh extraction.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:07:50 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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sernam
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 02:06:57 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taafe (Taffy) a Welsh name? I'm assuming you know most "Normans" in Britain weren't actually Norman
I thought the migration from Britain took place in the 5th century (the 400s AD), but I am a very stupid person.

The name Taaffe is of Welsh origin. It is pronounced Taff not Taffy.  Even I am not that stupid. It is spelled Tath in Irish with a fada (accent) over the "a".

Yes some went in the 400's and probably later as well.

As far as Taaffe, one site I looked at says it's Welsh for david, same as "Taffy"
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eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 02:12:05 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taafe (Taffy) a Welsh name? I'm assuming you know most "Normans" in Britain weren't actually Norman
I thought the migration from Britain took place in the 5th century (the 400s AD), but I am a very stupid person.

The name Taaffe is of Welsh origin. It is pronounced Taff not Taffy.  Even I am not that stupid. It is spelled Tath in Irish with a fada (accent) over the "a".

Yes some went in the 400's and probably later as well.

As far as Taaffe, one site I looked at says it's Welsh for david, same as "Taffy"
Yea, see above, I just posted an EDIT while you were posting.... I forget what the actual Welsh name is for David, but I know it became the derogatory nickname "Taffy".
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:12:25 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 02:17:30 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taafe (Taffy) a Welsh name? I'm assuming you know most "Normans" in Britain weren't actually Norman
I thought the migration from Britain took place in the 5th century (the 400s AD), but I am a very stupid person.

The name Taaffe is of Welsh origin. It is pronounced Taff not Taffy.  Even I am not that stupid. It is spelled Tath in Irish with a fada (accent) over the "a".

Yes some went in the 400's and probably later as well.

As far as Taaffe, one site I looked at says it's Welsh for david, same as "Taffy"
Yea, see above, I just posted an EDIT while you were posting.... I forget what the actual Welsh name is for David, but I know it became the derogatory nickname "Taffy".

And there's me thinking it was after the river.
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sernam
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 02:19:18 PM »

did the 5th century migration to Amorica by people who are now known as Cornish and Welsh have any genetic effect on the area now known as France.

Why would the DF23 need to be from the 5th C and not the 4th when Armorica was originally settled by Britons from Maximus' army?


BTW Isn't Taafe (Taffy) a Welsh name? I'm assuming you know most "Normans" in Britain weren't actually Norman
I thought the migration from Britain took place in the 5th century (the 400s AD), but I am a very stupid person.

The name Taaffe is of Welsh origin. It is pronounced Taff not Taffy.  Even I am not that stupid. It is spelled Tath in Irish with a fada (accent) over the "a".

Yes some went in the 400's and probably later as well.

As far as Taaffe, one site I looked at says it's Welsh for david, same as "Taffy"
Yea, see above, I just posted an EDIT while you were posting.... I forget what the actual Welsh name is for David, but I know it became the derogatory nickname "Taffy".
So were the Taaffe's patrilineally " Norman" (continentals from France or low countries) or Welsh?   Or maybe they were Britons who went to Armorica came back as part of William I's invasion settled in Wales then went to Ireland where they took the name Taaffe?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:22:36 PM by sernam » Logged
Jdean
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2012, 02:33:08 PM »

And there's me thinking it was after the river.

The typical Welsh version of David is Dai pronounced 'die' but the name Dewi is becoming more popular now.

Dafydd is another version which I would say is David written with Welsh spelling but I could be wrong, according to 'Behind the name' this is where Taff comes from, so I've learnt something new today (I really did think it was after the river :)

PS I wouldn't necessarily think of Taff or Taffy as a derogatory term but I suppose it depends on the delivery, if it was yelled at me by some snarling skin head I might think they possibly weren't being friendly :) certainly it’s not normally considered in the same light as Paki which Alan was talking about recently so George Bush Jr. should be reasonably safe if he came to visit us.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:51:14 PM by Jdean » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2012, 02:52:05 PM »

So were the Taaffe's patrilineally " Norman" (continentals from France or low countries) or Welsh?   Or maybe they were Britons who went to Armorica came back as part of William I's invasion settled in Wales then went to Ireland where they took the name Taaffe?

My Taaffe family could be any of those origins. And, because of that, I think it is possible that some (SOME! SOME! SOME!) of the DF23 found in France could have an origin in Britain.

It seems as if you agree with me, Sernam, which puts you in a terrible position   :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:54:23 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 03:10:00 PM »

Taffe is of cambro-norman origin (Cambro = Welsh) in Ireland. Here what woulfe had to say in his 1923 book:

--
TÁTH—VIII—Ta, Tath, Taath, Taaf, Taff, Taaffe; 'son of David'; compare with modern Irish Dáth and Welsh Taffy; the name of a distinguished family of Welsh origin who settled at an early period in Co. Louth. Towards the end of the 13th century, flourished Sir Nicholas Taaffe, Justice of the Common Pleas, whose son, John Taaffe, became Archbishop of Armagh. In the reign of Elizabeth, Sir William Taaffe did good service against Hugh O'Neill and subsequently against the Spaniards at Kinsale, for which he was rewarded by James I with large grants of confiscated lands in Co. Sligo. In 1628, his son, John Taaffe, was created Baron of Ballymote and Viscount Corren; and in 1661, Theobald, son of this John Taaffe, was made Earl of Carlingford. The Taaffes were most zealous supporters of the Stuarts, in whose cause they sacrificed everything. Nicholas, the second Earl of Carlingford, fell at the Boyne, and the family honours devolved on his brother Francis, the celebrated Count Taaffe of the German Empire.

---
The name is never pronunced as Taffy in Ireland but as Taff. One sign of American tourists in Galway is that they ask about "Taffy's pub" (when they mean "Taaffe's") which usually draw's a chuckle from us locals.

Anyways as for DF23. Do we know how old it's looking at the moment? I'm assuming it's old in which case there's no reason not to assume that you could have multiple waves of DF23 in Northern France. For example "if" (emphasis!!) it did first arise in Northern Gaul (sometime BC) and migrated into South-West Britain then it's possible that it survived there and was later joined by a "back-migration" of "Brythonic DF23".

Tbh until we find subclades of DF23 marked by their own SNP's (other then of course M222) we'll never know for certain.
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sernam
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2012, 03:15:29 PM »

So were the Taaffe's patrilineally " Norman" (continentals from France or low countries) or Welsh?   Or maybe they were Britons who went to Armorica came back as part of William I's invasion settled in Wales then went to Ireland where they took the name Taaffe?

My Taaffe family could be any of those origins. And, because of that, I think it is possible that some (SOME! SOME! SOME!) of the DF23 found in France could have an origin in Britain.

It seems as if you agree with me, Sernam, which puts you in a terrible position   :)

Well then again...... before what I wrote above the Taaffes could have been Veneti fleeing Romans to Britain originally
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:16:19 PM by sernam » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2012, 03:18:21 PM »

... It is accepted that anyone with a Norman name in Ireland has a Continental origin.

Not by me. Not at all. I would expect that some Irish paternal lineages adopted Norman"esque" surnames for a variety of reasons. I also expect that some who came with the Cambro-Normams adopted Gaelic surnames.



This is exactly what happened, one famous case of a native name adopting a "Norman-esque" name is Fitzpatrick -- this appears to be a Norman name (in an Irish context) with the Fitz, however it's a native Irish name (Mac Giolla Phádraig) been that of Royal house of kingdom of Osraighe (Ossory)

---
Mac GIOLLA PHÁDRAIG—IV—M'Gillephadrick, M'Gillapatrick, M'Kilpatrick, MacGilpatrick, MacIlpatrick, MacIlfatrick, MacElfatrick, MacIlfederick, MacElfedrick, Gilpatrick, Kilpatrick, Kirkpatrick, Fitzpatrick; 'son of Giolla Phádraig' (servant of St. Patrick). The principal family of this name are the MacGillapatricks, or Fitzpatricks, of Ossory, who took their name from Giolla Phádraig, son of Donnchadh, lord of Ossory, in the 10th century. In early times they ruled over the entire of Co. Kilkenny and part of the present Leix, but after the Anglo-Norman invasion they were greatly encroached upon by the Butlers and other English settlers in Kilkenny, and their patrimony was limited to the barony of Upper Ossory. Branches of the family settled in Clare, Cavan, Leitrim, and other parts of Ireland. In 1541, Brian Mac Giolla Patrick was created Baron of Upper Ossory. There appears to have been also a Scottish family of this name.
---

Lots of Cambro-Normans became "more irish then the Irish themselves". The prime example are the Burkes of Connacht and their many branches. Burke was De Burgh, they even went so far as adopting native inaguration practises with their own inaguration sites for the two major branches (Mac William Uachtar -- Mac William Iochtar)

The Fitzgearld's often held a middle road due to their mass power in the Lordship. For example one of most important poets of the Irish language during the 14th century is Gearóid Iarla (Gerald fitzMaurice FitzGerald) -- the Third Earl of Desmond.

If anything the privilege that Gearóid Iarla gave the Irish language was one of main causes of decline of French among the Cambro-Norman elite in Ireland and it's replacement with the Irish language.
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2012, 03:32:53 PM »

... It is accepted that anyone with a Norman name in Ireland has a Continental origin.

Not by me. Not at all. I would expect that some Irish paternal lineages adopted Norman"esque" surnames for a variety of reasons. I also expect that some who came with the Cambro-Normams adopted Gaelic surnames.



This is exactly what happened, one famous case of a native name adopting a "Norman-esque" name is Fitzpatrick -- this appears to be a Norman name (in an Irish context) with the Fitz, however it's a native Irish name (Mac Giolla Phádraig) been that of Royal house of kingdom of Osraighe (Ossory)

---
Mac GIOLLA PHÁDRAIG—IV—M'Gillephadrick, M'Gillapatrick, M'Kilpatrick, MacGilpatrick, MacIlpatrick, MacIlfatrick, MacElfatrick, MacIlfederick, MacElfedrick, Gilpatrick, Kilpatrick, Kirkpatrick, Fitzpatrick; 'son of Giolla Phádraig' (servant of St. Patrick). The principal family of this name are the MacGillapatricks, or Fitzpatricks, of Ossory, who took their name from Giolla Phádraig, son of Donnchadh, lord of Ossory, in the 10th century. In early times they ruled over the entire of Co. Kilkenny and part of the present Leix, but after the Anglo-Norman invasion they were greatly encroached upon by the Butlers and other English settlers in Kilkenny, and their patrimony was limited to the barony of Upper Ossory. Branches of the family settled in Clare, Cavan, Leitrim, and other parts of Ireland. In 1541, Brian Mac Giolla Patrick was created Baron of Upper Ossory. There appears to have been also a Scottish family of this name.
---

Lots of Cambro-Normans became "more irish then the Irish themselves". The prime example are the Burkes of Connacht and their many branches. Burke was De Burgh, they even went so far as adopting native inaguration practises with their own inaguration sites for the two major branches (Mac William Uachtar -- Mac William Iochtar)

The Fitzgearld's often held a middle road due to their mass power in the Lordship. For example one of most important poets of the Irish language during the 14th century is Gearóid Iarla (Gerald fitzMaurice FitzGerald) -- the Third Earl of Desmond.

If anything the privilege that Gearóid Iarla gave the Irish language was one of main causes of decline of French among the Cambro-Norman elite in Ireland and it's replacement with the Irish language.

McQuillan is a better example for "Normans" becoming native
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:34:00 PM by sernam » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 03:56:48 PM »

If you from North Antrim alone then yes, but Fitzgearld's and Burkes were among two of most powerful families in medieval Ireland. The Burkes and their many septs controlled most of County Galway and Mayo. The Mayo Burkes even rotated the leadership between the four septs so that they would remain within the Derbhfhine. (No other Gaelicized normans went this far!)

Great account of the suppression of Mayo Burkes in 16th century here (boards.ie -- poster writing a book on topic)
Quote from: Bannasidhe;74040541
Don't assume an Irish name means Catholic - many Irish 'converted' when they submitted-  the best example being the O'Briens earls of Thomond who were Anglican and one can't get more Irish then the descendants of Boru!

Race is often brought into this when, in fact, the concept of 'race' as we know it was only beginning to develop and didn't really start to be a major issue until much later.  The main issues of contention then were religion and culture. In Ireland under the Tudors Culture was the main thing with far more emphasis being placed on the annihilation of Gaelic culture then on religious conversion.

It might be worth discussing the Gaelic Irish conception of 'race' here. To them there were two types of people - An Gael (the 'Irish') and An Gáll (everyone else!). The Scots confused the issue a bit as they were also 'Gaelic' but when living in Ireland were usually referred to as Gálloglaigh (gallowglass - foreign warrior).
 When the Gaelic Irish referred to their 'race' they meant their specific Clan and their 'country' was their clan lands. Although they may collectively occasionally refer to themselves as 'Irish' - this was more akin to us calling ourselves 'European' than an assumption of a national identity. 

A person's 'race' was defined by their surname - descent was patrilinier [i.e through the male line].

To illustrate by way of example:
Gráinne Ní Mháille (Lit - Gráinne daughter of [distant male ancestor] Máille) was An Gael. Her 'country' was Umhall Uí Máille - now Murrisk in Mayo.
Her first husband was Domhnaill Na Chogaidh Ua Flaithbhertaigh (Domhnaill son of [distant male ancestor] Flaithbhertaigh of Iar Chonnacht. Also An Gael.

They had a daughter Máireadh Ni Fhlaithbhertaigh - she was An Gael. She married Risteard Mac Deamon an Chorrán á Búrc of Erris[ descendent of William Concur de Burgh via Eamonn Albanach á Búrc and Sabh Ní Mháille who founded the Mayo Bourkes) - An Gáll as his patrilinier line of descent was not Gaelic. Culturally he was completely Gaelic and fought against Anglicisation his entire life.  Máireadh and Mac Deamon had a son - Daithi á Búrc = An Gáll.

Gráinne and Domhnaill's son Muirtaigh Na Moar Ua Flaithbhertaigh - An Gael - married Cáitriona á Búrc -[ also descended from William Concur de Burgh but of the Galway branch) An Gáll. Their children were all 'An Gael'.

When Domhnaill died, Gráinne returned to Umhall Uí Máille - i.e. her 'race' and her 'country' as her husband's death had ended the marriage alliance and as a 'foreigner' she had no business being in Iar Chonnacht. Her 3 children from the marriage stayed as they were of the 'race' of Flaithbhertaigh.

Gráinne later married Risteard In Iarainn á Búrc of Burrishoole (Mayo Bourkes]- (Risteard In Iarainn was the nephew of Gráinne's first husband via the marriage of Daithi á Búrc to Fionnghula Ní Fhlaithbhertaigh) he was An Gáll. They had one son - Tibboid na Long á Búrc - Yup, he was An Gáll. He married Meabh Ni Chonchobhair Sligigh - guess what she was...yes..An Gael! but their children bore the surname á Búrc making them all An Gáll.

The Uí Chonchobhair Sligigh was loyal to the crown of England but Sliocht Ullig   - one of the 4 main septs of the Mayo Bourkes (collectively known as the Mac Uilliam Íochtair) [Sliocht Ullig's 'country' was  Burrishoole, Erris and Achill] of whom Gáinne's second husband, youngest son and son-in-law were all members (and at some point all sept leaders and holders of the banned title of Mac Uilliam Íochtair) engaged in a 30 year war to try and prevent Anglicisation.  Richard Bingham particularly  targeted them for harsh reprisals - including the hanging of 3 children under 5 in 1586.
So the main opposition to the Tudors in North Connacht was conducted by people who called themselves  'English' but refused to give up Gaelic Culture while among those aiding the Crown were the (Anglican) O'Briens of Thomond - descendants of Ború and Uí Chonchobhair Sligigh - descendent of the O'Connor kings of Connacht and (occasional) high kings of Ireland. All of them 'Irish' to the core.

 When we say Irish fought English - who exactly were the 'Irish' and who were the 'English'? Perhaps this blurring of the racial boundaries is why the powerful, rebellious and utterly committed to Gaelic culture Mac Uilliam Íochtair á Búrcs of Mayo are nearly invisible in Irish historiography - even though they fought longer and harder than anyone else against the Tudors and were the reason Connacht remained the most 'Irish' of the provinces...but they called themselves 'English'....

It's a funny old world when ya have a poke at it!
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sernam
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2012, 05:46:39 PM »

If you from North Antrim alone then yes, but Fitzgearld's and Burkes were among two of most powerful families in medieval Ireland. The Burkes and their many septs controlled most of County Galway and Mayo. The Mayo Burkes even rotated the leadership between the four septs so that they would remain within the Derbhfhine. (No other Gaelicized normans went this far!)

Great account of the suppression of Mayo Burkes in 16th century here (boards.ie -- poster writing a book on topic)
Quote from: Bannasidhe;74040541
Don't assume an Irish name means Catholic - many Irish 'converted' when they submitted-  the best example being the O'Briens earls of Thomond who were Anglican and one can't get more Irish then the descendants of Boru!

Race is often brought into this when, in fact, the concept of 'race' as we know it was only beginning to develop and didn't really start to be a major issue until much later.  The main issues of contention then were religion and culture. In Ireland under the Tudors Culture was the main thing with far more emphasis being placed on the annihilation of Gaelic culture then on religious conversion.

It might be worth discussing the Gaelic Irish conception of 'race' here. To them there were two types of people - An Gael (the 'Irish') and An Gáll (everyone else!). The Scots confused the issue a bit as they were also 'Gaelic' but when living in Ireland were usually referred to as Gálloglaigh (gallowglass - foreign warrior).
 When the Gaelic Irish referred to their 'race' they meant their specific Clan and their 'country' was their clan lands. Although they may collectively occasionally refer to themselves as 'Irish' - this was more akin to us calling ourselves 'European' than an assumption of a national identity. 

A person's 'race' was defined by their surname - descent was patrilinier [i.e through the male line].

To illustrate by way of example:
Gráinne Ní Mháille (Lit - Gráinne daughter of [distant male ancestor] Máille) was An Gael. Her 'country' was Umhall Uí Máille - now Murrisk in Mayo.
Her first husband was Domhnaill Na Chogaidh Ua Flaithbhertaigh (Domhnaill son of [distant male ancestor] Flaithbhertaigh of Iar Chonnacht. Also An Gael.

They had a daughter Máireadh Ni Fhlaithbhertaigh - she was An Gael. She married Risteard Mac Deamon an Chorrán á Búrc of Erris[ descendent of William Concur de Burgh via Eamonn Albanach á Búrc and Sabh Ní Mháille who founded the Mayo Bourkes) - An Gáll as his patrilinier line of descent was not Gaelic. Culturally he was completely Gaelic and fought against Anglicisation his entire life.  Máireadh and Mac Deamon had a son - Daithi á Búrc = An Gáll.

Gráinne and Domhnaill's son Muirtaigh Na Moar Ua Flaithbhertaigh - An Gael - married Cáitriona á Búrc -[ also descended from William Concur de Burgh but of the Galway branch) An Gáll. Their children were all 'An Gael'.

When Domhnaill died, Gráinne returned to Umhall Uí Máille - i.e. her 'race' and her 'country' as her husband's death had ended the marriage alliance and as a 'foreigner' she had no business being in Iar Chonnacht. Her 3 children from the marriage stayed as they were of the 'race' of Flaithbhertaigh.

Gráinne later married Risteard In Iarainn á Búrc of Burrishoole (Mayo Bourkes]- (Risteard In Iarainn was the nephew of Gráinne's first husband via the marriage of Daithi á Búrc to Fionnghula Ní Fhlaithbhertaigh) he was An Gáll. They had one son - Tibboid na Long á Búrc - Yup, he was An Gáll. He married Meabh Ni Chonchobhair Sligigh - guess what she was...yes..An Gael! but their children bore the surname á Búrc making them all An Gáll.

The Uí Chonchobhair Sligigh was loyal to the crown of England but Sliocht Ullig   - one of the 4 main septs of the Mayo Bourkes (collectively known as the Mac Uilliam Íochtair) [Sliocht Ullig's 'country' was  Burrishoole, Erris and Achill] of whom Gáinne's second husband, youngest son and son-in-law were all members (and at some point all sept leaders and holders of the banned title of Mac Uilliam Íochtair) engaged in a 30 year war to try and prevent Anglicisation.  Richard Bingham particularly  targeted them for harsh reprisals - including the hanging of 3 children under 5 in 1586.
So the main opposition to the Tudors in North Connacht was conducted by people who called themselves  'English' but refused to give up Gaelic Culture while among those aiding the Crown were the (Anglican) O'Briens of Thomond - descendants of Ború and Uí Chonchobhair Sligigh - descendent of the O'Connor kings of Connacht and (occasional) high kings of Ireland. All of them 'Irish' to the core.

 When we say Irish fought English - who exactly were the 'Irish' and who were the 'English'? Perhaps this blurring of the racial boundaries is why the powerful, rebellious and utterly committed to Gaelic culture Mac Uilliam Íochtair á Búrcs of Mayo are nearly invisible in Irish historiography - even though they fought longer and harder than anyone else against the Tudors and were the reason Connacht remained the most 'Irish' of the provinces...but they called themselves 'English'....

It's a funny old world when ya have a poke at it!

Interesting account.
I'm aware McQuillans were not as powerful but my point was McQuillans became an integral part of an overwhelmingly Gaelic area, but I really wasn't considering MacWilliams or desmond. While I agree Mayo Burkes & probably Munster FitzGeralds will pass muster as extremely gaelicized, I'm not so sure Kildare or clanrickard would.

You mentioned annihilation of Gaelic culture. I think N Canny pointed out that essentially Gaelic culture assisted in annihilating itself.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 06:23:17 PM »

As to the thread question, I dont feel confident we know enough yet about DF23*'s age and geographical variance.  It looks pretty like it was highly mobile to me, especially along the western seaways between Ireland and Britain.  I would guess that some L23* may have got to France with the Bretons.  However, I think it looks a complex group with phases that are clearly early given the Irish and Welsh pre-Norman surnames of some but also surnames indicative of later movements. I think one obvious problem is the L23 SNP is very old and the L23* group is probably composed of lots of lineages like M222 but we havent found the downstream SNPs yet.  I think some people have seen L23 as the oldest so far identified L21 downstream SNP.  What is variance telling us?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 06:56:44 PM »

As to the thread question, I dI think some people have seen L23 as the oldest so far identified L21 downstream SNP.  What is variance telling us?

Yes, although we now know that DF49 is upstream of DF23 (I think you mean DF23 not L23).

The interclade ages between DF23 (or just use the M222 data) and other major groups like DF23, L513 or the Scotls modal folks is quite high.  DF49/DF23 must have been an early branch off L21, or I guess we should say off DF13.  It's not really that DF23 is old, just that its branch off of DF13 is old.  
It is worth noting that that some of the DF23* branches, like the Wales SW England branch, have old interclade ages with M222 so DF23 does in fact have an "old" coalescence age whereas M222 does not.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:58:49 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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