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rms2
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« on: June 12, 2012, 08:29:18 PM »

Out of 104 DF13 test results this evening, 103 were positive and just one was negative: Bishop, kit N80403 (England).

I am too tired right now to comb back over the results for details, but I believe every subclade of L21 had at least one representative who tested DF13+. I know I remember seeing DF21, L513, L193, L144, L159.2, DF23, M222, DF41, and Z253 among the positives.

Anyway, I won't be creating a separate category for DF13+, but I may create one for DF13-, since that would be easier to do.
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OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 08:37:13 PM »

I am DF13+
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 08:56:20 PM »

I am DF13+

I saw that. Congratulations!

Honestly, I was hoping we would get a few more negatives.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 08:58:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 09:11:57 PM »

Being stuck at L21 for so long...it's welcome news.:))
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 09:12:15 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 10:44:24 PM »

Tonight I am in the DF13+* pipe

148326

DF13+, DF21-, DF23-, DF41-, DF49-, DF5-, DF63-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L21+, L226-, L459+, L513-, L526-, L563-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-, Z245+, Z253-, Z254-, Z255- WTY Neg {L371-},{L555-}
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
secherbernard
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 03:12:21 AM »

There are five L21+ DF13- now: 37201 (England), N80403 (England), 191950 (Scotland), N72406 and 54798 (England). Two of them are DF63- too, the three others haven't been tested for DF63.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:14:09 AM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 06:32:43 AM »

There are five L21+ DF13- now: 37201 (England), N80403 (England), 191950 (Scotland), N72406 and 54798 (England). Two of them are DF63- too, the three others haven't been tested for DF63.

That's a nice spread of values, the modal for the group is for all intense and purposes WAMH.

I still think it would be interesting to see at least a couple of these people test L459 & Z245, they have a much better chance of being negative than the rest of us :)
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secherbernard
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2012, 07:51:36 AM »

That's a nice spread of values, the modal for the group is for all intense and purposes WAMH.

I still think it would be interesting to see at least a couple of these people test L459 & Z245, they have a much better chance of being negative than the rest of us :)
191950 is L459+ and DF13-
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mtDNA: U6a7a1
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Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2012, 08:03:45 AM »

That's a nice spread of values, the modal for the group is for all intense and purposes WAMH.

I still think it would be interesting to see at least a couple of these people test L459 & Z245, they have a much better chance of being negative than the rest of us :)
191950 is L459+ and DF13-

I missed that, cheers.

I think there's a reasonable chance they'll all turn up L459+, that's been quite well tested now, but Z245 is lagging behind.
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 08:46:10 AM »

Out of 104 DF13 test results this evening, 103 were positive and just one was negative: Bishop, kit N80403 (England).

I am too tired right now to comb back over the results for details, but I believe every subclade of L21 had at least one representative who tested DF13+. I know I remember seeing DF21, L513, L193, L144, L159.2, DF23, M222, DF41, and Z253 among the positives.

Anyway, I won't be creating a separate category for DF13+, but I may create one for DF13-, since that would be easier to do.

Essentially, L21 has been usurped.  DF13 is just slimmed down (but not much) L21.

What is the importance of L21 versus DF13?  This pretty well demonstrates that DF13 is nearly as old as L21, which is nearly as old as P312.  In that way this, the first DF13 man has just taken a place inside that ancient clan that included the growing part of the R1b-L11 family.

P312, L21, DF13, U152, L2, DF27, Z196, U106, Z381 are all about the same age.
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Jdean
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2012, 09:24:27 AM »


Essentially, L21 has been usurped.  DF13 is just slimmed down (but not much) L21.

What is the importance of L21 versus DF13?  This pretty well demonstrates that DF13 is nearly as old as L21, which is nearly as old as P312.  In that way this, the first DF13 man has just taken a place inside that ancient clan that included the growing part of the R1b-L11 family.

P312, L21, DF13, U152, L2, DF27, Z196, U106, Z381 are all about the same age.

Whilst I agree with most of what you are saying I don't think we should write DF13 off just like that.

Firstly it's going to be of immediate interest to those who've tested negative for it and we now have (as you pointed out yourself) an extremely likely candidate for the SNP that surfed out on the wave.

The obvious question, which crops up often enough WRT L21, what made DF13 so phenomenally successful ?

Another issue which I at least think is worth pondering, it would appear that over 95% of L21 is DF13 and if the 1000 Genome data can be relied upon all DF13+ people are also L459, Z245, Z260, Z290 and of course L21. So that's 6 SNPs between DF13 and P312 that we know of.

Is this just a coincidence of SNP discovery or can we read something into it ?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2012, 09:38:10 AM »

It is interesting to think that DF63, being only around 5% of L21, has had an exceptional long but narrow sustained Paternal line. This small percentage subclade has been maintained since its inception.

According to the Clan McDonald website that states:

Male lines regularly “daughter out.” Computer analysis of historical data indicates that as many as 95% of the males lines of 1000 years ago have daughtered out.

http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAmain4.htm
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2012, 09:52:12 AM »

It is interesting to think that DF63, being only around 5% of L21, has had an exceptional long but narrow sustained Paternal line. This small percentage subclade has been maintained since its inception.

According to the Clan McDonald website that states:

Male lines regularly “daughter out.” Computer analysis of historical data indicates that as many as 95% of the males lines of 1000 years ago have daughtered out.

http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAmain4.htm

I wouldn't put to much faith in the 5% prediction, from what I've been told our friend the anonymous researcher who discovered DF63 & DF13 (not via the 1000 Genome project either) is not in the habit of guessing frequencies.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:52:40 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 10:16:24 AM »

I wouldn't put to much faith in the 5% prediction, from what I've been told our friend the anonymous researcher who discovered DF63 & DF13 (not via the 1000 Genome project either) is not in the habit of guessing frequencies.

I think the percentages are from GregM as I recall. But now, from the L21 project SNP page, there are about 180 DF13 results, five (add one for 93184 Ranney from Ireland Project) are Neg so far.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 10:27:09 AM »

I wouldn't put to much faith in the 5% prediction, from what I've been told our friend the anonymous researcher who discovered DF63 & DF13 (not via the 1000 Genome project either) is not in the habit of guessing frequencies.

I think the percentages are from GregM as I recall. But now, from the L21 project SNP page, there are about 180 DF13 results, five (add one for 93184 Ranney from Ireland Project) are Neg so far.


That's odd, from the Ymap data I would expect 5 neg results .
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2012, 10:33:21 AM »

Continental DF13+ results.

(add one more: Thomas Krahn as DF13+ as well)

174552   Christen P GRAM c1797-c1866 Buntje-Ballum, Tønder   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21
193834   Movsha Yurzditsky, c. 1830, Igumen, Belarus   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21
N93033   Amuchástegui, b. 1897 in Markina (Bizkaia), Spain.   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21
N45541   Hinrich Tiedemann Heinbockel, Germany   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21
N5620   Erik Ersson Backström, b. 1712, Jämtland, SE   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21
140503   Michael Krueger B9oct1818 D28sep1894 Pozen   R1b1a2a1a1b4   R-L21
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2012, 10:44:53 AM »


I think the percentages are from GregM as I recall. But now, from the L21 project SNP
I wouldn't put to much faith in the 5% prediction, from what I've been told our friend the anonymous researcher who discovered DF63 & DF13 (not via the 1000 Genome project either) is not in the habit of guessing frequencies.
page, there are about 180 DF13 results, five (add one for 93184 Ranney from Ireland Project) are Neg so far.


That's odd, from the Ymap data I would expect 5 neg results .

14 results not yet scored I assume?

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?name=DF13
comments:  Almost everything below R-L21
count_derived:  180
count_tested:  194

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 10:55:07 AM »


I think the percentages are from GregM as I recall. But now, from the L21 project SNP
I wouldn't put to much faith in the 5% prediction, from what I've been told our friend the anonymous researcher who discovered DF63 & DF13 (not via the 1000 Genome project either) is not in the habit of guessing frequencies.
page, there are about 180 DF13 results, five (add one for 93184 Ranney from Ireland Project) are Neg so far.


That's odd, from the Ymap data I would expect 5 neg results .

14 results not yet scored I assume?

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?name=DF13
comments:  Almost everything below R-L21
count_derived:  180
count_tested:  194



No there were 9 results to start with, 8 neg which I assume were random testing inside of FTDNA and 1 positive which presumably was Thomas since he had his SNP being under DF13 right from the start.

Since then 1 P312* chap has tested DF13.
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2012, 11:01:14 AM »

No there were 9 results to start with, 8 neg which I assume were random testing inside of FTDNA and 1 positive which presumably was Thomas since he had his SNP being under DF13 right from the start.

Since then 1 P312* chap has tested DF13.

I was only looking at the SNP list in L21 project.  Do you have the Kit numbers of these 8? How did you know this?

Ok, just found out the P312 was (Ranney -- 93184) where I missed the L21 SNP being negative.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2012, 11:09:57 AM »

No there were 9 results to start with, 8 neg which I assume were random testing inside of FTDNA and 1 positive which presumably was Thomas since he had his SNP being under DF13 right from the start.

Since then 1 P312* chap has tested DF13.

I was only looking at the SNP list in L21 project.  Do you have the Kit numbers of these 8? How did you know this?

Ok, just found out the P312 was (Ranney -- 93184) where I missed the L21 SNP being negative.


Ah should have seen that myself, thanks for the clarification

WRT to the other 8, FTDNA are in the habit of testing primmer before they offer them to the general public (they did this a lot with Z14 for some strange reason) but AFAIK the results don't get reported anywhere save Ymap, quite possibly these people weren't L21+.
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2012, 11:11:24 AM »


Essentially, L21 has been usurped.  DF13 is just slimmed down (but not much) L21.

What is the importance of L21 versus DF13?  This pretty well demonstrates that DF13 is nearly as old as L21, which is nearly as old as P312.  In that way this, the first DF13 man has just taken a place inside that ancient clan that included the growing part of the R1b-L11 family.

P312, L21, DF13, U152, L2, DF27, Z196, U106, Z381 are all about the same age.

Whilst I agree with most of what you are saying I don't think we should write DF13 off just like that.

Firstly it's going to be of immediate interest to those who've tested negative for it and we now have (as you pointed out yourself) an extremely likely candidate for the SNP that surfed out on the wave.

The obvious question, which crops up often enough WRT L21, what made DF13 so phenomenally successful ?

Another issue which I at least think is worth pondering, it would appear that over 95% of L21 is DF13 and if the 1000 Genome data can be relied upon all DF13+ people are also L459, Z245, Z260, Z290 and of course L21. So that's 6 SNPs between DF13 and P312 that we know of.

Is this just a coincidence of SNP discovery or can we read something into it ?

There is no doubt that there is some luck involved in the sequence of discovery of SNPs.  I don't know if we can read much more than that.  If you are considering SNP branch lengths and time, we should probably consider that in context of details of WTY, HG1000 and Karafet 2008's study.   I don't know if the randomness of SNP occurrences are consistent enough.  I guess Karafet thinks the are.  However, I'd still caution, an average SNP occurence rate is likely to be erractic down at the individual case level.

As far as writing DF13 off, I' not sure what you meant.  In a way this writes L21 off, if anything.  I think DF13 is very important and every L21* person (at least your cluster should) should test for DF13.  

In fact, for a general R1b1a2 haplotype that we can't cluster but is from the western part of Europe and is not 492=13, I'd recommend some kind of SNP testing sequence like this:

Stop when you hit a positive  -> 1) DF13 2) DF27 3) U152 4) L21

Perhaps if it is Iberian, DF27 would be first.  If Italian, probably should be U152 first or even L2.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 11:46:54 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 01:16:40 PM »


Essentially, L21 has been usurped.  DF13 is just slimmed down (but not much) L21.

What is the importance of L21 versus DF13?  This pretty well demonstrates that DF13 is nearly as old as L21, which is nearly as old as P312.  In that way this, the first DF13 man has just taken a place inside that ancient clan that included the growing part of the R1b-L11 family.

P312, L21, DF13, U152, L2, DF27, Z196, U106, Z381 are all about the same age.

Whilst I agree with most of what you are saying I don't think we should write DF13 off just like that.

Firstly it's going to be of immediate interest to those who've tested negative for it and we now have (as you pointed out yourself) an extremely likely candidate for the SNP that surfed out on the wave.

The obvious question, which crops up often enough WRT L21, what made DF13 so phenomenally successful ?

Another issue which I at least think is worth pondering, it would appear that over 95% of L21 is DF13 and if the 1000 Genome data can be relied upon all DF13+ people are also L459, Z245, Z260, Z290 and of course L21. So that's 6 SNPs between DF13 and P312 that we know of.

Is this just a coincidence of SNP discovery or can we read something into it ?

There is no doubt that there is some luck involved in the sequence of discovery of SNPs.  I don't know if we can read much more than that.  If you are considering SNP branch lengths and time, we should probably consider that in context of details of WTY, HG1000 and Karafet 2008's study.   I don't know if the randomness of SNP occurrences are consistent enough.  I guess Karafet thinks the are.  However, I'd still caution, an average SNP occurence rate is likely to be erractic down at the individual case level.

As far as writing DF13 off, I' not sure what you meant.  In a way this writes L21 off, if anything.  I think DF13 is very important and every L21* person (at least your cluster should) should test for DF13.  

In fact, for a general R1b1a2 haplotype that we can't cluster but is from the western part of Europe and is not 492=13, I'd recommend some kind of SNP testing sequence like this:

Stop when you hit a positive  -> 1) DF13 2) DF27 3) U152 4) L21

Perhaps if it is Iberian, DF27 would be first.  If Italian, probably should be U152 first or even L2.



Happenstance shouldn’t be overlooked but the no. of SNPs in branches is now being used to produce reasonable looking estimates of  age which compares favourably with the interclade method, consequently I think it’s  not to unreasonable to conclude the no. of  SNPs between P312 & DF13 suggests quite a long span of time.

After rereading your comments about DF13 I realise you weren’t exactly writing it off but saying it was no more or less important than L21.

BTW I see Thomas is encouraging DF13 neg people to test for L459 & Z245 over on Yahoo.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 01:17:31 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2012, 03:11:31 PM »

Another issue which I at least think is worth pondering, it would appear that over 95% of L21 is DF13 and if the 1000 Genome data can be relied upon all DF13+ people are also L459, Z245, Z260, Z290 and of course L21. So that's 6 SNPs between DF13 and P312 that we know of.

Is this just a coincidence of SNP discovery or can we read something into it ?

There is no doubt that there is some luck involved in the sequence of discovery of SNPs.  I don't know if we can read much more than that.  If you are considering SNP branch lengths and time, we should probably consider that in context of details of WTY, HG1000 and Karafet 2008's study.  I don't know if the randomness of SNP occurrences are consistent enough.  I guess Karafet thinks the are.  However, I'd still caution, an average SNP occurence rate is likely to be erractic down at the individual case level.

Happenstance shouldn’t be overlooked but the no. of SNPs in branches is now being used to produce reasonable looking estimates of  age which compares favourably with the interclade method, consequently I think it’s  not to unreasonable to conclude the no. of  SNPs between P312 & DF13 suggests quite a long span of time...  

That's where I thought you were headed. You may be right, but I don't think we have much reason to think this is the case solely based on the fact that we have three publicly document SNPs (L21, Z245 and L459) that are between P312 and DF13 (or close to it.)

Back on the STR Wars thread we talked about this about this on about reply 79. http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10513.msg129311#msg129311

Vince Tilroe used "Human Y Chromosome Base-Substitution Mutation Rate Measured by Direct Sequencing in a Deep-Rooting Pedigree" by Xue, to calculate, as I noted, "the rate of .78 SNPs per father-son transmission, so about 3/4th."

There is a Y SNP being born almost every generation.  We have to recognize that counting and then calibrating that to time requires a systematic sampling method for Y chromosome SNPs.


 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:14:22 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jdean
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 03:44:51 PM »


That's where I thought you were headed. You may be right, but I don't think we have much reason to think this is the case solely based on the fact that we have three publicly document SNPs (L21, Z245 and L459) that are between P312 and DF13 (or close to it.)

Back on the STR Wars thread we talked about this about this on about reply 79. http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10513.msg129311#msg129311

Vince Tilroe used "Human Y Chromosome Base-Substitution Mutation Rate Measured by Direct Sequencing in a Deep-Rooting Pedigree" by Xue, to calculate, as I noted, "the rate of .78 SNPs per father-son transmission, so about 3/4th."

There is a Y SNP being born almost every generation.  We have to recognize that counting and then calibrating that to time requires a systematic sampling method for Y chromosome SNPs.


Yes but at the time I couldn't rely on the data being reported in Ymap because it was inconclusive and I couldn't rely on the data for Z260 and Z290 because it wasn't being tested for and I couldn't rely on the information regarding P312* because it was to limited :)

However now in a relatively short space of time we have DF13 which covers (assuming the 1000 genome data is right) L21, L459, Z245, Z260 and Z290 plus it's being ordered by 'everybody and their grandmother'

On top of that we also have some developments in P312* with DF27, though the take up on this is not so great.

From memory I think Vince was talking about average SNPs occurring over the whole Y chromosome not just the section that’s usable, though I could be wrong.

If we should be expecting SNPs at the rate quoted above then a very rough estimate of the no. of SNPs between M222 and P312 would be about 50-60 as opposed to the 8 we know of (though of course we should expect more to turn up).

BTW my argument in the other thread was the lack of L21+, L459- etc results could cause a problem with the surfing the wave theory, then along came DF13+ and DF13-, problem solved ?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:54:44 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Heber
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 04:41:13 PM »

How about l21 (no star)?
I was originally tested
23andme v2 as L21
23andme v3 as L21* (upgraded)
FTDNA Deep Clade L21 (no star)
Are there many L21 (no star) out there.
Will FTDNA automatically (at not charge) upgrade the assignment to reflect DF13.
This incremental testing could go on forever!


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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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