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Author Topic: A believable model for the incredible expansion and patterning of L11  (Read 777 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: June 12, 2012, 04:54:47 PM »

There are few models that can explain the early days of western European R1b.  As I posted before the estimates for Mr L11, Mr P312, Mr L21/U152/L23 etc and their ancesor one SNP down from them (L2, Z192 etc) are so close that I think we should imagine it like a Gaelic type clan of fission of lineages springing from kings and siblings and cousings of kinds, each segment breaking off if:

1. They get 3 or 4 generations from the a previous king/chief and fall out of the running (in Gaelic socieity the law dictated that you could be no more than a 2nd cousin of the king and be in the running) for that position

2. There was land to expand into.

This caused fission (probably supported by the main clan stem) of lineages into new territories.  When there were no new territories it meant downward mobility.  The system seems almost designed for constant expansion. 

Now that is Gaelic society in the Early Christian era, not the steppes in the copper age.  However, I imagine they were rather like a more mobile mega scale version of the Gaelic system.  The basic system seems to have meant the king or chief and his immediate closest kinsmen hogging reproduction with even one chief having serial head wifes, extra subordinate wives (allowed in Irish Law) as well as lots of illegitimate kids.  I remember looking at some of the Irish clan chiefs genealogies of the Medieval era and some of them had a quite incredible amount of descendants within a couple of generations.  And remember in the Irish Derbfine Tanistry system, all of kings male great grandchildren had a theoretically equal claim to the crown albeit it was generally kept to people with a father or grandfather as previous chief in practice. 

I can just imagine a similar situation on the steppes were an offshoot group backed by the parent large group moves into an area in what amounted to a protection racket.  They initially were just a bunch of siblings and cousins forming only a small element of society (but with the threat of the parent group who the fission group were likely free clients of).  Witin 7 generations (I believe the Irish laws say something like 7 generations from a king to a peasant, could be 6 but it doesnt really matter)  some of the descendants of the original fission group would be kings and others would be simple farmers or herders unless of course they split of in further fission. In practice both fission and downward mobility happened with the downwardly mobile descendants of the chiefs squeezing out the original population further. 

I see this Irish system as essentially a late smaller scale expression of a very ancient fairly undeveloped IE system.  I imagine a very similar thing happening on the steppes albeit on a grand scale in huge landscapes. As I pointed out before.  Mr L21 may well have known the name of Mr P312 and Mr L11 ancestors if they were his GG and GGG grandfathers.  In fact a major split and migration every 3 or 4 generation with a new lineage forming is pretty well what happened in expansive Gaelic clans and that would make plenty of sense in the steppes migrations too.  I tend to think Early Christian Irish society (and apparently Welsh was similar) with its conical clans, clientship etc as the baseline simple IE society that is reverted to when larger structures or more developed systems dont form or collapse.  Every time I read Anthony and how he envisages steppes expansion it just sounds unbelievably like an upscaled version of the Irish system. 

One thing the Irish system demostrates is how small fissions of royal septs taking over a new area can produce a huge amount of descendants within a handful of generations.  It really did work on a demographic push from the upper strata and withering of the lower, quite unlike modern western societies.

So, I think in the Irish conical patrilineal clans and clients system you see in miniture how pockets of elite fission protected and probably in free clientship with the parent royal sept can establish itself and totally change the local male lineages in a slow top-down squeeze over a century or two. 

This is royal fission model is the only way I can really see how a sequence of individual men in the L11-P312-L21/U152-L2 etc sequence could spread so wide and form clear geographical pattersn in such a space of time.  They simply must have been kings or chiefs, probably the sons, grandsons etc of a recent chief and they simply must have been clients of and had the backing of the parent group they broke off from or they wouldnt have been numerous enough to do much when you consider that the above SNP sequence could represent a century or so.  So this sort of royal fission formed into a nested client system as suggested by Anthony is really the only way to explain it.   
 
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 06:13:30 PM »

Deirbhfhine is actually wider then how you describe it. It's made up of all living descendants of any previous king who are in a four generation descent. So often you got situations where the kingship would rotate between different branches. That and it was elected kingship where all the nobles would gather in Oireachtas (thence the name of Parliament in Ireland) and select new king from those of the righdamhna (Kingly material)

The other thing to factor in is there was no concept of illegemitcy in medieval Irish society. The son of the wife was just as equal technically as the son of the concubine. That and divorce was widely and freely available. I've read accounts of 15th century marriages where the man was on his fourth marriage and the wife on her third. The result was massive amount of births per generation of elite groups in society. As Nichol in his seminal book on the subject says you see "top down replacement" as people over time fall out of the deirbhfhine.

Nichol book is a must have to understand medieval Irish society. However I do wonder if the obsession with lineage and what happen in medieval Ireland is a byproduct of christainisation of society. With the rise of christianity we see the constusction of elaborate genealogies and pseudo-histories trying to tie into biblical narrative (Adam etc.)

Whereas before hand the evidence points towards tribal allegience been more important. In such a case the actual lineage of individuals wouldn't have such a meaning as they later acquired in medieval irish society.
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SEJJ
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 06:39:42 PM »

This is really interesting, i understand you use this to possibly explain what we see now with the main R1b lineages - Am i right in thinking that with the impetus for the expansion Westward gone after hitting the Atlantic, this sort of system led to the dominance of R1b in some areas e.g Ireland and the Basque country, it seems like this with the overwhelming dominance of R1b-L21 in Ireland and Britain, and with R1b peaking at 98% in one area if i remember correctly?

Through this system it is is easy to see how these lineages could have become so overwhelmingly represented - And how if the upper castes of society remained of the same lineages even when encountering/absorbing a new group of people, this new group could become quickly diminished in terms of y-haplogroups.

Please correct me if my understanding is false - Although it's interesting in regards to  Western European I2 and R1b. In Sardinia where R1b is a decided minority and I2 a majority - Perhaps this is because the R1b there were latecomers or quite well absorbed into the host population, while in mainland western Europe and Britain the incomers had the majority and the ruling castes were replaced, leading to a gradual diminishing of I2 relative R1b? Also interesting when you think that Mediterranean components seem to peak in Sardinia and have a significant presence all the way up to the British Isles.

I expect i'll be told what i've written is all rubbish now haha, but i'm just trying to gain an understanding :]
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 06:51:19 PM »

I can't account for Britain. British and Irish medieval socities were very different with regards to things such as succession, land usage and marriage. You only see a convergence after the destruction of Irish society in the 17th century.

The evidence points to a number of major population crashes in Irish pre-history. This could go somewhere towards explaining how new incoming groups bearing the likes of L21 could become dominant overtime especially given the societal model.

For example one of the Ó Domhnaill (O'Donnell) kings of Tír Chonaill (Donegal) in the 15th century is known to have had at least 15 sons by 10 different women. All of these were legimate when it came to succession. He also had at least 25 grandsons who survived to adulthood.
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SEJJ
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 08:16:29 PM »

I can't account for Britain. British and Irish medieval socities were very different with regards to things such as succession, land usage and marriage. You only see a convergence after the destruction of Irish society in the 17th century.

The evidence points to a number of major population crashes in Irish pre-history. This could go somewhere towards explaining how new incoming groups bearing the likes of L21 could become dominant overtime especially given the societal model.

For example one of the Ó Domhnaill (O'Donnell) kings of Tír Chonaill (Donegal) in the 15th century is known to have had at least 15 sons by 10 different women. All of these were legimate when it came to succession. He also had at least 25 grandsons who survived to adulthood.

Apologies, i meant hypothetically if there was a similar tradition throughout predominantly R1b populations.

That is true, there is of course the Black Death that springs to mind, and until learning more about the English Civil War recently i didn't realise how greatly it affected the Irish population too. Although these are more recent, i guess they are to some degree comparable with the pre-historic crashes. Yeah given a combination of these two factors it's no wonder that if R1b-L21 was very common among the elite that it could be so successful. Given the situation of a population bottleneck the most successful lineages would likely be over-represented relative to what they had been, as the elites would apparently have more children that survived.

Thanks for the information.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 08:24:00 PM »

Deirbhfhine is actually wider then how you describe it. It's made up of all living descendants of any previous king who are in a four generation descent. So often you got situations where the kingship would rotate between different branches. That and it was elected kingship where all the nobles would gather in Oireachtas (thence the name of Parliament in Ireland) and select new king from those of the righdamhna (Kingly material)

The other thing to factor in is there was no concept of illegemitcy in medieval Irish society. The son of the wife was just as equal technically as the son of the concubine. That and divorce was widely and freely available. I've read accounts of 15th century marriages where the man was on his fourth marriage and the wife on her third. The result was massive amount of births per generation of elite groups in society. As Nichol in his seminal book on the subject says you see "top down replacement" as people over time fall out of the deirbhfhine.

Nichol book is a must have to understand medieval Irish society. However I do wonder if the obsession with lineage and what happen in medieval Ireland is a byproduct of christainisation of society. With the rise of christianity we see the constusction of elaborate genealogies and pseudo-histories trying to tie into biblical narrative (Adam etc.)

Whereas before hand the evidence points towards tribal allegience been more important. In such a case the actual lineage of individuals wouldn't have such a meaning as they later acquired in medieval irish society.

Its quite a lot of years since I studied the kinship systems.  I vaguely recall that some sort of kinship went as far as the 5th, 6th or 7th generation (I cant recall).  I think it went from the Gelfine (common grandfather), Derbfine (common G Granfather) then so on including the Iarfine, Indfine or something like that.  I imagine these terms must be relative a lineage founding figure because it would just be chaos if the terms were relative to every individual.  I got the feeling the brehons imagined an idealised system leading from a lineage founder down to about the 6th generation after.  After that I think membership of the kin group (and whatever privillages that brought) were lost in legal theory.  I think it was envisaged that as each generation fell of the precipace of maximum kinship distance they were replaced by those squeezing down from the top.  I think the brehons saw it as a pyramid moving from a common ancestor to about 100 men in the 6th generation from the founder.  Some of them would have remained close enough to the chiefly line to be in contention but others by the last couple of generations of kindship would no longer be in the running.  I have never entirely understood how the land was distributed among them.  The Medieval record suggests the parish-sized subdivisions of petty kingdoms, the Ballybetagh, was the unit in which land could be redistribution among the Cenel or clan. I would think this was true in the early Christian period and that a tuath perhaps had around 7 or so Ballybetaghs.  

Then there is the issue of free and base clientship too.  I am pretty sure base clientship (basically cattle from the noble class to the farmers for render and services) and free clientship which seems to be between nobles and even kings.  I have often tried to work out how kinship, clientship and land inheritance interacted but I dont think I have ever really cracked a full understanding of it.  I thought the book 'Cattle lords and clansmen' came closest to bringing it to life.  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 08:24:47 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 08:30:42 PM »

I can't account for Britain. British and Irish medieval socities were very different with regards to things such as succession, land usage and marriage. You only see a convergence after the destruction of Irish society in the 17th century.

The evidence points to a number of major population crashes in Irish pre-history. This could go somewhere towards explaining how new incoming groups bearing the likes of L21 could become dominant overtime especially given the societal model.

For example one of the Ó Domhnaill (O'Donnell) kings of Tír Chonaill (Donegal) in the 15th century is known to have had at least 15 sons by 10 different women. All of these were legimate when it came to succession. He also had at least 25 grandsons who survived to adulthood.

At that sort of rate a royal line of kings, both those who remained in the kingship circles and those who didnt, could easily collectively produce many hundreds of descendants of the original king in about a century as long as resources permitted.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 01:18:16 PM »

Anyone interested in how the Gaelic kinship, inheritance, caln systems, clientship etc could do worse than read the various works by Neil McLeod.  Not many people actually have any sort of detailed handle on how this all worked and he I think is one of the few who vividly interprets it in more than a broad brush way

 http://www.law.murdoch.edu.au/staffs/n.mcleod.html
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Heber
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2012, 04:03:21 PM »

What we are talking about here is founder effect. I think the Gaelic Chieftens had a good understanding of the importance of DNA and the necessity to produce loyal clan members who could be depended on to fight and expand territories. The obvious case study is the O'Neill and Niall of the Nine Hostages, whose Y DNA signature is found in up to 8.5% of Irish people and which produced a dynasty lasting a thousand years (6th - 16th C). The other case study is the Maguires, who expanded demographically so rapidly (13th - 16th C) in the Fermanagh region at the expense of other Gaelic clans, that it became known as Maguire Country.
Following the defeat at the Battle of Kinsale (1601) and the Flight of the Earls, The Wild Geese and the Plantations of Ulster these Gaelic Kingships came to an end and it took far less that seven generations to go from Kingship to poverty.

Of course the primary case study of founder effect is Genghis Khan, whose Y DNA signature is now found is up to 12.5% of Chinese and Mongolian males. His tactics were a bit more extreme, kill all the defeated male survivors and reproduce with the females. His clan decendants created the greatest empire in extent in human history. It was short lived however, when the technology of the perfected Mongalian bow and arrow and swift mounted attack was surpassed by gun power.
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Heber


 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 09:45:15 AM »

...
So, I think in the Irish conical patrilineal clans and clients system you see in miniture how pockets of elite fission protected and probably in free clientship with the parent royal sept can establish itself and totally change the local male lineages in a slow top-down squeeze over a century or two. 

This is royal fission model is the only way I can really see how a sequence of individual men in the L11-P312-L21/U152-L2 etc sequence could spread so wide and form clear geographical pattersn in such a space of time.  They simply must have been kings or chiefs, probably the sons, grandsons etc of a recent chief and they simply must have been clients of and had the backing of the parent group they broke off from or they wouldnt have been numerous enough to do much when you consider that the above SNP sequence could represent a century or so.  So this sort of royal fission formed into a nested client system as suggested by Anthony is really the only way to explain it.   

I have to admit the host/client system, long distance networks, prestige goods, and a dedicated warrior role in society support a method for Y DNA to spread quickly and pervasively.  "Fission" probably fits nicely as a descriptor. I could see how "royal" fits too but I think we should consider words like "gang" also might fit so we should remind ourselves this wasn't necessarily a nice process.
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