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Author Topic: eastern refugia - did R1 live in any of these areas?  (Read 831 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: June 11, 2012, 05:02:06 PM »

Although the western ice age refugia idea seems dead for R1b, it still must have had a place in the world at this time and I think its interesting to consider the location in the east where R1b or R1 was located in this period.

Although about flora rather than humans, I find this an interesting paper

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01788.x/pdf

It does suggest where the more pleasant areas were in the LGM.  However, I woldnt infer too much because there were human groups who were very happy to live in much harsher climates chasing large herds of game in Ukraine etc.  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:16:53 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 05:15:11 PM »

Not the best source but Wiki says of the LGM period to the north

East European Plain
 
Periglacial loess-steppe environments prevail across the East European Plain during this time, although climates ameliorated slightly during several brief interstadials and began to warm significantly after the beginning of the Late Glacial Maximum. Pollen profiles for this time indicate a pine-birch woodland interspersed with the steppe in the deglaciated northern plain, birch-pine forest with some broadleaf trees in the central region and steppe in the south. This pattern reflects the reemergence of a marked zonation of biomes with the decline of glacial conditions. Human site occupation density was most prevalent in the Crimea region and increased as early as ca. 16,000 years before the present. However reoccupation of northern territories of the East European Plain did not occur until 13,000 years before the present. Prior to this settlement of the central portion of the East European Plain was significantly reduced during a period of maximum cold ca. 21,000-17,000 years before the present.[2] Overall, there is little archaeological evidence to suggest major shifting settlement pattern during this time on the East European plain. This is unlike what was occurring in Western Europe, where Magdalenian industry producers were rapidly repopulating much of Europe. Evidence of this can be found as far east at Kunda sites (ca. 10,000 years ago) located throughout Baltic country territory where tanged point and other tool making traditions reminiscent of the northwestern European Magdalenian persist.[4]
 
Generally, lithic technology is dominated by blade production and typical Upper Paleolithic tool forms such as burins and backed blades (the most persistent). Kostenki archaeological sites of multiple occupation layers persist from the Last Glacial Maximum and into the Late Glacial Maximum on the eastern edge of the Central Russian Upland, along the Don River. Epigravettian archaeological sites, similar to Eastern Gravettian sites, are common in the southwest, central, and southern regions of the East European Plain ca. 17,000-10,000 years BP, and are also present in the Crimea and Northern Caucasus. The time of the Epigravettian also reveals evidence for tailored clothing production, a tradition persisting from preceding Upper Paleolithic archaeological horizons. Fur bearing small mammal remains abound such as arctic fox, and paw bones of hares reflecting pelt removal. Large and diverse inventories of bone, antler, and ivory implements are common, and ornamentation and art are associated with all major industries. Insights into the technology of this period can also be seen in features such as structures, pits, and hearths mapped on open air occupation areas scattered across the East European Plain.[2]
 
Mammoths were typically hunted for fur, bone shelter and bone fuel. In the southwest region around the middle Dnestr Valley, sites are dominated by reindeer and horse from the Last GM to the Late Gm accounting for 80 to 90 percent of the identifiable large mammal remains. Mammoth is less common, typically 15 percent or less since the availability of wood eliminated the need for heavy consumption of bone fuel and collection of large bones for construction. Mammoth remains may have been collected for other raw material namely ivory. Other large mammals in modest numbers include steppe bison and red deer. Plant foods likely played an increasing role in the southwest region than in the central and southern plains since southwest sites consistently yield grinding stones widely thought to have been used for preparation of seeds, roots, and other plant parts.[2
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:15:29 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 05:24:32 PM »

Although about flora rather than humans, I find this an interesting paper

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01788.x/pdf


Thank you Alan! I didn't have anything as detailed as this.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:27:26 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 11:56:43 AM »

Although about flora rather than humans, I find this an interesting paper

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01788.x/pdf


Thank you Alan! I didn't have anything as detailed as this.

Hope its useful Jean.  I havent really read it yet myself.  I often post papers so I remember to read them myself later!  The only problem I see is its quite well known (as the Wiki article indicates) that a lot of hunters seem to have actually preferred braving the appalling conditions to follow the game rather than the smaller biomass and trickier hunting of the woods etc.  The eastern Gravetians seem to have liked beef so much they were willing to put up with the cold.  The Upper Palaeolithic of the Black Sea area is not exactly one I am a font of knowledge about so I have no idea if the refugia were as attractive as we might think today or not.   
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Jean M
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 12:28:44 PM »

I'm not really concerned with the Upper Palaeolithic here. This paper is ideal for me to cite re the possibility I discuss that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the sheltered forest refuge fringing the southern Caspian. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the Southern Urals around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the Southern Caspian. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 11:15:48 PM »

I'm not really concerned with the Upper Palaeolithic here. This paper is ideal for me to cite re the possibility I discuss that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the sheltered forest refuge fringing the southern Caspian. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the Southern Urals around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the Southern Caspian. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic.

So R1 could indeed be the hunter gatherer lineage after all?
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Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 04:27:44 AM »

In the Mesolithic everyone was a hunter-gatherer. We all have hunter-gatherer ancestors. The estimated age of R1 is before the invention of farming.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 04:55:33 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 11:26:17 PM »

In the Mesolithic everyone was a hunter-gatherer. We all have hunter-gatherer ancestors. The estimated age of R1 is before the invention of farming.

Ok. Where are these findings in the Southern Caspian and what sort of findings are there?
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Jean M
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 07:25:57 PM »

Belt Cave, Shanidar B, Karim Shahir, Zawi Chemi Shanidar, Jarmo.  Geometric microliths.

Some of these sites are close to the Caspian, but geometric microliths are found over a wider area, as you can see.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 07:37:40 PM »

I'm not really concerned with the Upper Palaeolithic here. This paper is ideal for me to cite re the possibility I discuss that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the sheltered forest refuge fringing the southern Caspian. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the Southern Urals around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the Southern Caspian. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic.

So R1 could indeed be the hunter gatherer lineage after all?



Of course.  I understand R1 has been dated by Karafat using SNP counting to about 18,500 years ago and that STR variance calculations lead to a similar result.  R1 and indeed the whole planet was pre-farming (i.e. hunting, gathering, fishing) for the first 50% of that last 18500 year period at least and in some areas they remained hunters for 75% or more of that 18500 year span since R1 appeared.  

As to where they lived, everything points to some sort of eastern refugia in the extreme east of Europe, SW Asia or central Asia.   That is the likely real R1 refuge not the Franco-Iberian one people once linked R1b to a few years back (there are still people in denail IMO).  That is why I found the article potentially interesting.

As to when R1 and R1b switches from hunting etc to farming, the main evidence that that was late is in the R1b tree with its unimpressive amount of traces of early branching pre-the 5th millenium BC and in the main not until the 3rd millenium BC.  No form of R1b has been found in ancient DNA in Europe from the Neolithic farmers.  I would think all this adds up to R1b being overwhelmingly located in some eastern area where farming only began to effect it rather late.  
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2012, 02:20:43 PM »

I'm not really concerned with the Upper Palaeolithic here. This paper is ideal for me to cite re the possibility I discuss that Mesolithic people carrying R1 may have moved between summer hunting on the steppe and winter quarters in the sheltered forest refuge fringing the southern Caspian. The Yangelskaya Culture which appears in the Southern Urals around 9000 BC is virtually identical with finds in the Southern Caspian. Contacts between the two continued even into the Neolithic.

So R1 could indeed be the hunter gatherer lineage after all?



Of course.  I understand R1 has been dated by Karafat using SNP counting to about 18,500 years ago and that STR variance calculations lead to a similar result.  R1 and indeed the whole planet was pre-farming (i.e. hunting, gathering, fishing) for the first 50% of that last 18500 year period at least and in some areas they remained hunters for 75% or more of that 18500 year span since R1 appeared.  

As to where they lived, everything points to some sort of eastern refugia in the extreme east of Europe, SW Asia or central Asia.   That is the likely real R1 refuge not the Franco-Iberian one people once linked R1b to a few years back (there are still people in denail IMO).  That is why I found the article potentially interesting.

As to when R1 and R1b switches from hunting etc to farming, the main evidence that that was late is in the R1b tree with its unimpressive amount of traces of early branching pre-the 5th millenium BC and in the main not until the 3rd millenium BC.  No form of R1b has been found in ancient DNA in Europe from the Neolithic farmers.  I would think all this adds up to R1b being overwhelmingly located in some eastern area where farming only began to effect it rather late.  

I agree with the Eastern refuge idea. It would be great if we had some DNA samples from ancient Central Asian and Eastern European hunter gatherer cultures (Keltiminar, Botai etc). Too bad the ancient inhabitants of those regions are so poor understood. R1b-M73 could for example be a very important part of this picture.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2012, 02:22:18 PM »

Belt Cave, Shanidar B, Karim Shahir, Zawi Chemi Shanidar, Jarmo.  Geometric microliths.

Some of these sites are close to the Caspian, but geometric microliths are found over a wider area, as you can see.

Ok. When you said Caspian I imagined sites namely in Iran and Turkmenistan.I am sure those exist in addition to the ones you posted. One interesting thins is R1b seems to exist in both countries while absent in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I suspect there is a deeper reason for that.
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Jean M
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 02:39:16 PM »

Some of the ones I posted are in Iran: Belt Cave and Zawi Chemi Shanidar. Click through to the links I gave for exact locations.  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 02:40:32 PM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 05:53:45 PM »

Some of the ones I posted are in Iran: Belt Cave and Zawi Chemi Shanidar. Click through to the links I gave for exact locations.  

The link says iraq for the Zawi Chemi Sahanidar. Are there any other along the Caspian coast of Iran and Turkmenistan?
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Jean M
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 07:20:11 PM »

So it does. My mistake.

The other important site is Gobustan in Azerbaijan. That is famous for its petroglyphs. It also has geometric microliths. http://whc.unesco.org/uploads/nominations/1076rev.pdf
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 07:36:02 PM by Jean M » Logged
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