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eochaidh
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 10:31:14 AM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.

If you think you are sounding smarter by applying sarcasm, it's not working.

France makes more sense because it a couple of million times more logical than your weak theory.

Provence L21: 19.4%
Provence M222:  0%
Central France:  9.9%
Central France:  0%

Now you see why I think Italy's L21 was sourced from France? Your use of a few hundred Irish Papal Troops as the source is easily trumped by a La Tene migrations that numbered over 100,000 and never left Italy.

I am an uneducated idiot and have freely admitted that.

You are, of course correct, none of the L21/DF23 found in Italy could have an Irish source. It is impossible and improbable. All L21/DF23 found in Italy came from the southeast of France. Okay that case is closed!

But, we have a further problem! Basile DF23 is from Sicily, I believe, and not even a Frenchman is smart enough to have migrated there! Obviously, no Irishman has ever set foot in Sicily, so the only conclusion is that DF23 originated in Sicily.

But wait! How did L21/DF23 get to the southeast of France?!! The southwest of France must be the origin of L21/DF23! No, no, it came from Sicily....

By the way, how much of the DF23 found in northwest France came from the Welsh and Cornish migration to Brittany? Okay, probably none, and of course, if any did it would be confined only to Brittany. Correct?

Mr. Rocca, I assure you I am the stupidest man on this board.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 10:48:42 AM by eochaidh » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2012, 12:42:13 PM »

I am an uneducated idiot and have freely admitted that.

You are, of course correct, none of the L21/DF23 found in Italy could have an Irish source. It is impossible and improbable. All L21/DF23 found in Italy came from the southeast of France. Okay that case is closed!

But, we have a further problem! Basile DF23 is from Sicily, I believe, and not even a Frenchman is smart enough to have migrated there! Obviously, no Irishman has ever set foot in Sicily, so the only conclusion is that DF23 originated in Sicily.

But wait! How did L21/DF23 get to the southeast of France?!! The southwest of France must be the origin of L21/DF23! No, no, it came from Sicily....

By the way, how much of the DF23 found in northwest France came from the Welsh and Cornish migration to Brittany? Okay, probably none, and of course, if any did it would be confined only to Brittany. Correct?

Mr. Rocca, I assure you I am the stupidest man on this board.

As someone who grew up a few miles from New York City and is well versed in sarcasm, I can tell you that it translates poorly to the web, especially on forums that have 50% non-native English speakers. So, if you want to have folks take your comments seriously, you probably need to tone it down several notches.

Now, back to the topic. It is a guarantee that at some point in history at least one  Irish male moved to Italy, stayed there and gave birth to a son. Nobody is denying that. What I am trying to point out is that the source of the minute amount of L21 in Italy is likely 99.9% from French regions.

As for Basile being from Sicily, that does very little to enhance your argument. The Normans conquered Sicily and drove out the Arabs before they even thought to invade England.

By the way, I don't really know one way or another if L21 or any of its subclades originated on the continent, in Britain, or in Ireland. As the saying goes - I have no horse in this race. But using a handful of FTDNA kits and trying to shoehorn them into an insignificant historical event in the 1800s is not going to convince anyone either way.

I do have this opinion tough - at some point major subclades of L21, U152, and DF27 must have been born in their current hotspots...just like M153 is almost exclusively found in Basque Country and some U152 markers have only been found in 1000 Genome samples from Tuscany.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 12:55:42 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 01:00:13 PM »

I am an uneducated idiot and have freely admitted that.

You are, of course correct, none of the L21/DF23 found in Italy could have an Irish source. It is impossible and improbable. All L21/DF23 found in Italy came from the southeast of France. Okay that case is closed!

But, we have a further problem! Basile DF23 is from Sicily, I believe, and not even a Frenchman is smart enough to have migrated there! Obviously, no Irishman has ever set foot in Sicily, so the only conclusion is that DF23 originated in Sicily.

But wait! How did L21/DF23 get to the southeast of France?!! The southwest of France must be the origin of L21/DF23! No, no, it came from Sicily....

By the way, how much of the DF23 found in northwest France came from the Welsh and Cornish migration to Brittany? Okay, probably none, and of course, if any did it would be confined only to Brittany. Correct?

Mr. Rocca, I assure you I am the stupidest man on this board.

As someone who grew up a few miles from New York City and is well versed in sarcasm, I can tell you that it translates poorly to the we, especially on forums that have 50% non-native English speakers. So, if you want to have folks take your comments seriously, you probably need to tone it down several notches.

Now, back to the topic. It is a guarantee that at some point in history at least one  Irish male moved to Italy, stayed there and gave birth to a son. Nobody is denying that. What I am trying to point out is that the source of the minute amount of L21 in Italy is likely 99.9% from French regions.

As for Basile being from Sicily, that does very little to enhance your argument. The Normans conquered Sicily and drove out the Arabs before they even thought to invade England.

By the way, I don't really know one way or another if L21 or any of its subclades originated on the continent, in Britain, or in Ireland. As the saying goes - I have no horse in this race. But using a handful of FTDNA kits and trying to shoehorn them into an insignificant historical event in the 1800s is not going to convince anyone either way.

I do have this opinion tough - at some point major subclades of L21, U152, and DF27 must have been born in their current hotspots...just like M153 is almost exclusively found in Basque Country and some U152 markers have only been found in 1000 Genome samples from Tuscany.

Now I see the problem! You think I have an argument! Mr. Rocca, as I have stated many times, I have no argument and no theory. I simply ask questions and prod for possibilities.

In that light, you have helped by saying that "some" DF23 in Italy could have an Irish source. To me, that is much, much, better than having the idea dismissed outright. So, therefore,  I have no argument about Basile in Sicily. I would doubt DF23 originated there, but it got there somehow. Yes, by Normans, perhaps, and some of those Normans could have been carrying DF23 from the Isles.

To hear you say that some of the major subclades of L21, U152 and DF27 must have been born in their hotspots is refreshing. I don't believe I have ever heard anything as open as that on these forums. And, I agree. The problem is that when a result of any subclade is found outside of the hotspot then what you're suggesting goes down the drain. I maintain that when one L226 result is found on the Continent, that will become the place of origin. Please remember that I said this; it could happen tomorrow.

Thank you for your concern abou my sarcasm! I've been concerned about your hyperbole and exaggeration thousands of times!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 01:16:58 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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sernam
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 03:29:06 PM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.

If you think you are sounding smarter by applying sarcasm, it's not working.

France makes more sense because it a couple of million times more logical than your weak theory.

Provence L21: 19.4%
Provence M222:  0%
Central France:  9.9%
Central France:  0%

Now you see why I think Italy's L21 was sourced from France? Your use of a few hundred Irish Papal Troops as the source is easily trumped by a La Tene migrations that numbered over 100,000 and never left Italy.

Well there certainly were more than just that in Italy.Spain's France's & Austria's armies at different times were in Italy. Irish were present in various numbers at various times in each of those armies in Italy 17-19 C, as were some Scots even earlier, plus IIRC an  Irish regiment  was part of a Napolitani army circa 1700's.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:29:44 PM by sernam » Logged
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2012, 03:35:17 PM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.

If you think you are sounding smarter by applying sarcasm, it's not working.

France makes more sense because it a couple of million times more logical than your weak theory.

Provence L21: 19.4%
Provence M222:  0%
Central France:  9.9%
Central France:  0%

Now you see why I think Italy's L21 was sourced from France? Your use of a few hundred Irish Papal Troops as the source is easily trumped by a La Tene migrations that numbered over 100,000 and never left Italy.

Well there certainly were more than just that in Italy.Spain's France's & Austria's armies at different times were in Italy. Irish were present in various numbers at various times in each of those armies in Italy 17-19 C, as were some Scots even earlier, plus IIRC an  Irish regiment  was part of a Napolitani army circa 1700's.

And so that makes L21 in Italy of overwhelming Irish stock? Let's be serious people.
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sernam
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2012, 03:48:34 PM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.

If you think you are sounding smarter by applying sarcasm, it's not working.

France makes more sense because it a couple of million times more logical than your weak theory.

Provence L21: 19.4%
Provence M222:  0%
Central France:  9.9%
Central France:  0%

Now you see why I think Italy's L21 was sourced from France? Your use of a few hundred Irish Papal Troops as the source is easily trumped by a La Tene migrations that numbered over 100,000 and never left Italy.

Well there certainly were more than just that in Italy.Spain's France's & Austria's armies at different times were in Italy. Irish were present in various numbers at various times in each of those armies in Italy 17-19 C, as were some Scots even earlier, plus IIRC an  Irish regiment  was part of a Napolitani army circa 1700's.

And so that makes L21 in Italy of overwhelming Irish stock? Let's be serious people.

You're incorrectly attributing statements to me. I'm pointing out that it was far more than just the few mentioned.

btw anyone ever test the alpine scot settlement?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:50:27 PM by sernam » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2012, 03:57:46 PM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.

If you think you are sounding smarter by applying sarcasm, it's not working.

France makes more sense because it a couple of million times more logical than your weak theory.

Provence L21: 19.4%
Provence M222:  0%
Central France:  9.9%
Central France:  0%

Now you see why I think Italy's L21 was sourced from France? Your use of a few hundred Irish Papal Troops as the source is easily trumped by a La Tene migrations that numbered over 100,000 and never left Italy.

Well there certainly were more than just that in Italy.Spain's France's & Austria's armies at different times were in Italy. Irish were present in various numbers at various times in each of those armies in Italy 17-19 C, as were some Scots even earlier, plus IIRC an  Irish regiment  was part of a Napolitani army circa 1700's.

And so that makes L21 in Italy of overwhelming Irish stock? Let's be serious people.

No one said that and I doubt anyone will ever say that, but I know you can't help yourself. No matter what is said you will twist it. That's what the majority of people on these forums do. It's all black and white and YOU must have said something on the wrong side!

Just wait to see what happens to your saying that some L21, U152 and DF27 subclades could have arisen in their respective hotspots! You'll be a guy who said that DF23 has its origin in the Isles! Like you, Mr. Rocca, the others can't help themselves.

Let's say it agian just for fun! Rich Rocca said that some of the subclades of L21, U152 and DF27 were born in their hotspots! Insanity!!  Plus I find it very sensible! You're done! As done as L226's origin in the Isles is done (soon)  :)
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 04:10:56 PM »

... No matter what is said you will twist it. That's what the majority of people on these forums do. It's all black and white and YOU must have said something on the wrong side!

Everything I've seen is that Richard is very thoughtful and open. I could definitely be charged with being provocative but I don't see this out of Richard at all (in a good way.)

Miles, is everything okay?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:13:16 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 04:16:21 PM »

... No matter what is said you will twist it. That's what the majority of people on these forums do. It's all black and white and YOU must have said something on the wrong side!

Everything I've seen is that Richard is very thoughtful and open.

Miles, is everything okay?

Yes, all is okay and thanks for asking. Seriously. I appreciated the understanding when my poor Dermot had to be put to sleep. It was very hard time for me.

In this case I'm just having fun and really seeing if I can open up the idea that "some" DF23 results on the Continent may have an origin in the Isles. I feel like it's too much of a one way street. At least today others are chiming in. I loved the line about "Alpine Scots"! I also find Bonnett's result frustrating, but understand that nothing can be done.

Thanks again for checking.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 04:32:05 PM »

... No matter what is said you will twist it. That's what the majority of people on these forums do. It's all black and white and YOU must have said something on the wrong side!

Everything I've seen is that Richard is very thoughtful and open.

Miles, is everything okay?

Yes, all is okay and thanks for asking. Seriously. I appreciated the understanding when my poor Dermot had to be put to sleep. It was very hard time for me.

In this case I'm just having fun and really seeing if I can open up the idea that "some" DF23 results on the Continent may have an origin in the Isles. I feel like it's too much of a one way street. At least today others are chiming in. I loved the line about "Alpine Scots"! I also find Bonnett's result frustrating, but understand that nothing can be done.

Thanks again for checking.

Sorry for your loss, and I enjoy the debate.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2012, 04:47:02 PM »

... No matter what is said you will twist it. That's what the majority of people on these forums do. It's all black and white and YOU must have said something on the wrong side!

Everything I've seen is that Richard is very thoughtful and open.

Miles, is everything okay?

Yes, all is okay and thanks for asking. Seriously. I appreciated the understanding when my poor Dermot had to be put to sleep. It was very hard time for me.

In this case I'm just having fun and really seeing if I can open up the idea that "some" DF23 results on the Continent may have an origin in the Isles. I feel like it's too much of a one way street. At least today others are chiming in. I loved the line about "Alpine Scots"! I also find Bonnett's result frustrating, but understand that nothing can be done.

Thanks again for checking.

Sorry for your loss, and I enjoy the debate.

Thank you. It's amazing how attached we become to our pets. Dermot was a wondeful cat and friend for 14 years.

I appreciate that you have the guts to say what you did about major subclades and hotspots. It is not the accepted thinking. Exhaustive threads have been posted explaining how the hotspot isn't the origin. And with that, anyone who looks at a hotspot and says, "Hey, maybe it started there!" is ridiculed. Or, in the case of Ireland, called a Nationalist.

I also think many "Origin" threads are baited traps to see who will suggest that a subclade doesn't have its origin on the Continent. I love to counter and, perhaps, force an opening!

But watch me, Richard Rocca, I use "some", "many" and "possible" most often. If one doesn't have an open mind they wil hear, "most", "all" and "probable".
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2012, 06:01:32 PM »

... I also think many "Origin" threads are baited traps to see who will suggest that a subclade doesn't have its origin on the Continent. I love to counter and, perhaps, force an opening!

I don't have a strong feeling on whether DF23 comes from the continent or not but I'm definitely leaning towards DF23 as having expanded into Ireland from the western side of Britain.

We'll have to keep tracking the DF23* guys to see if the French ones will be "unclusterable" with the Isles versions.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2012, 06:19:33 PM »

... I also think many "Origin" threads are baited traps to see who will suggest that a subclade doesn't have its origin on the Continent. I love to counter and, perhaps, force an opening!

I don't have a strong feeling on whether DF23 comes from the continent or not but I'm definitely leaning towards DF23 as having expanded into Ireland from the western side of Britain.

We'll have to keep tracking the DF23* guys to see if the French ones will be "unclusterable" with the Isles versions.

Fair enough.

One possible scenario is that Brun (23-1411), is an ancestor of a 23-1411 man who came from southwest Britain in the 4th/5th century migration. There are many ways that 23-1411 could have made it to Ireland and Scotland for the Greenlees, Dougherty and me. Just one possible scenario. Some of that migration must show up today in France. Of course, I don't know what our GD is but by this scenario it would be a separation of some 1600 years.

This scenario is completely wiped out by Bonnett's genealogy, which brings 23-1411 from Italy to Ireland/Scotland a few hundred years ago.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2012, 07:01:25 PM »

... I also think many "Origin" threads are baited traps to see who will suggest that a subclade doesn't have its origin on the Continent. I love to counter and, perhaps, force an opening!

I don't have a strong feeling on whether DF23 comes from the continent or not but I'm definitely leaning towards DF23 as having expanded into Ireland from the western side of Britain.

We'll have to keep tracking the DF23* guys to see if the French ones will be "unclusterable" with the Isles versions.

Fair enough.

One possible scenario is that Brun (23-1411), is an ancestor of a 23-1411 man who came from southwest Britain in the 4th/5th century migration. There are many ways that 23-1411 could have made it to Ireland and Scotland for the Greenlees, Dougherty and me. Just one possible scenario. Some of that migration must show up today in France. Of course, I don't know what our GD is but by this scenario it would be a separation of some 1600 years.

This scenario is completely wiped out by Bonnett's genealogy, which brings 23-1411 from Italy to Ireland/Scotland a few hundred years ago.

Well, you've probably seen me say that "one does not a trend make."  I think one like this is of great interest to investigate but I wouldn't change my whole way of thinking.

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