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Author Topic: Where did the NW Irish come from? More data  (Read 2010 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: June 11, 2012, 10:28:50 AM »

We've looked at this a few times before and I think the story is starting to unfold.  This pretense of this analysis is to understand where the brothers and cousins of the Northwest Irish (& Lowland Scots) marked by the M222 SNP.

Directly upstream of M222 and downstream of both L21 and DF49 is DF23. Below are the DF23* folks and their respective varieties (clusters.)

We've known for some time the Wales Southwest England cluster (of Ed Martin) were DF23*. I can identify another variety, 23-2224, that appears to be oriented to the western side of Britain.

We also find a couple of French MDKA's and Nordic MDKA's.


KIT     NAME   VARIETY   LOCATION   HG
f11217  Basile   23- unass.   Italy   R-L21
f85185  Cox   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
f64071  Curtis   23- unass.   Ireland-Munster   R-L21
f182980 Georgel   23- unass.   France-Northeast   R-L21
f60340  Goldsworth   23- unass.   Ireland   R-L21
f110496 Gregg   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
f85109  Howell   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
fN92711 Le Provost   23- unass.   France-North & Central   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f61312  Moore   23- unass.   England   R-L21
f67708  Moore   23- unass.   Isles/UK   R-L21
f213636 Murray   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21*
f51794  Ogilvie   23- unass.   Scotland   R-L21
f50358  Quin   23- unass.   Ireland   zz predicted
f151962 Quinn   23- unass.   Ireland   R-L21
f127884 Simpson   23- unass.   Scotland-South   R-L21
fN8991  Walsh   23- unass.   Ireland   R-L21
f8016   Warner   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
fN76046 Brown   23-1220    - unknown   R-L21
f41311  Eaton   23-1220   England-South East   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f174499 Harvey   23-1220   England-South West   R-L21
f173673 Rogers   23-1220   Isles/UK   R-L21
f37495  Rogers   23-1220   England-West Midlands   R-L21
f74975  Humphrey   23-13   Wales   R-L21
fN1871  Warren   23-13   Isles/UK   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f178560 Davis   23-1314   Wales   R-L21
f144928 Morgan   23-1314    - unknown   R-L21
f74772  Phillips   23-1314   England   R-L21
f160476 Welsh   23-1314   Ireland   R-L21
fN46295 Bonnet   23-1411   Italy   R-L21
f18917  Brun   23-1411   France-North Atlantic   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f165344 Greenlee   23-1411   Scotland-West & Central   zz predicted
f161264 Johnston   23-1411    - unknown   R-L21
f97610  Kehoe   23-1411   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f41836  Fancher   23-1421   England-London   R-L21
f101343 Fancher   23-1421   England   R-L21
f60575  Johnson   23-1421    - unknown   R-L21
fN10959 Johnson   23-1421   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f90660  Johnston   23-1421   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
f37464  Johnston   23-1421   Scotland   R-L21
f73834  Landon   23-1421   France   R-L21
f207798 Martin   23-1421   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f162881 Carroll   23-15   Ireland-Munster   R-L21
f46265  Craddock   23-15    - unknown   R-L21
f11435  Elliott   23-15   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
f104528 McDonald    23-15   Scotland-North   R-L21
f162597 Anderson   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f141902 Bryan   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f90439  Davis   23-15-WSW   England   zz predicted
f69464  Davis   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f156191 Evans   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
f81103  Griffin   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f77238  Jonas   23-15-WSW   Isles/UK   zz predicted
f137289 Morgan   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f208316 Newton   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f133436 Pool   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
fN29376 Powell   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f113011 Scott   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21
f156257 Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f19920  Stephens   23-15-WSW   Scotland   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f197585 Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f211712 Stephens   23-15-WSW   England   zz predicted
f110031 Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f25980  Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f26232  Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21
f120942 Stevens   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
f27039  Stevens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21
f147036 Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f154440 Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f49637  Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
f64716  Vaughan   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f125079 Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f108697 Vaughn   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f146350 Vaughn   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f34742  Workman(Vaughan)   23-15-WSW   Isles/UK   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f167278 Armstrong   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Ulster   zz predicted
f100219 Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Connacht   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f162015 Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Connacht   zz predicted
f79367  Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland   zz predicted
f107869 Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Leinster   zz predicted
f160027 Madden   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Munster   zz predicted
fN33146 O'Kelly   23-21-HyM   Ireland   zz predicted
f60472  Pugh   23-21-HyM   Wales   R-L21
f27822  Shannon   23-21-HyM   Ireland   zz predicted
f14875  Thomas   23-21-HyM   Wales   zz predicted
f159039 Trainor   23-21-HyM   Ireland   R-L21
f108030 Trainor   23-21-HyM   Ireland   R-L21
fN5677  Traynor   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
f132540 Traynor   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
fN54996 Bennett   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
fE2711  Berge(Strandebarm)   23-22   Norway   R-L21
f178787 Burn   23-22   England-South West   R-L21
f197492 Burns   23-22   England-South West   zz predicted
f127795 Byrne   23-22   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21
f105475 Byrne   23-22   Ireland   zz predicted
f96442  Byrne   23-22   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21
f105473 Byrne   23-22   Ireland-Leinster   zz predicted
f13026  Davis   23-22   England-London   R-L21
f116686 Davis   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f216398 Davis   23-22   Isles/UK   R-L21
f100202 Elliott   23-22   Ireland   R-L21
f137136 Gale   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f200859 Gjon   23-22   Norway   R-L21
f132486 Harding   23-22   England   R-L21
fN36461 Heihiller   23-22   Norway   R-L21
f78065  Lamphier   23-22   France-Southwest   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f203844 Lewis   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f33333  Meek   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f24520  Pruner   23-22   Ireland-Munster   R-L21
f101669 Steele   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
yGRH3M  Tyrrell   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f159206 - unknown   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f63595  Anglin   23-2224   Ireland-Munster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f137235 Caldwell   23-2224   Ireland   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
fN26081 Caldwell   23-2224   Scotland   R-L21
f79710  Carll   23-2224   Isles/UK   R-L21
f79990  Coad    23-2224   England-South West   zz predicted
f97847  Coade   23-2224   England-South West   R-L21
f142592 Coode    23-2224   England-South West   zz predicted
f81225  Handlon   23-2224   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21
f120815 John   23-2224   Wales   R-L21
f67107  John   23-2224    - unknown   R-L21
fN26284 Leister   23-2224   Ireland   R-L21
fN29988 Nielson(Vejle)   23-2224   Denmark   R-L21
fN73727 Phillips   23-2224   Ireland   R-L21
f134396 Robison   23-2224   Scotland   R-L21
f119874 Stanton?   23-2224    - unknown   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f177479 Wilson   23-2224   Scotland   R-L21
f141404  - unknown   23-2224    - unknown   zz predicted


« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 10:50:28 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 12:34:08 PM »

F164101 Dougherty, Ireland should be added to the 23-1411 group as predicted. He is actually closer to me at 64/67 than Greenlee 63/67.

As far as origin, Mr. Bonnet has made it clear to me that Greenlee, Dougherty and me are all products of an ancestor of his migrating to Ireland a few hundred years ago. So, I'd say all 23-1411 men must be from Italy.
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 01:14:39 PM »

We've looked at this a few times before and I think the story is starting to unfold.  This pretense of this analysis is to understand where the brothers and cousins of the Northwest Irish (& Lowland Scots) marked by the M222 SNP.

Directly upstream of M222 and downstream of both L21 and DF49 is DF23. Below are the DF23* folks and their respective varieties (clusters.)

We've known for some time the Wales Southwest England cluster (of Ed Martin) were DF23*. I can identify another variety, 23-2224, that appears to be oriented to the western side of Britain.

We also find a couple of French MDKA's and Nordic MDKA's.


KIT     NAME   VARIETY   LOCATION   HG
f11217  Basile   23- unass.   Italy   R-L21
f85185  Cox   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
f64071  Curtis   23- unass.   Ireland-Munster   R-L21
f182980 Georgel   23- unass.   France-Northeast   R-L21
f60340  Goldsworth   23- unass.   Ireland   R-L21
f110496 Gregg   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
f85109  Howell   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
fN92711 Le Provost   23- unass.   France-North & Central   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f61312  Moore   23- unass.   England   R-L21
f67708  Moore   23- unass.   Isles/UK   R-L21
f213636 Murray   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21*
f51794  Ogilvie   23- unass.   Scotland   R-L21
f50358  Quin   23- unass.   Ireland   zz predicted
f151962 Quinn   23- unass.   Ireland   R-L21
f127884 Simpson   23- unass.   Scotland-South   R-L21
fN8991  Walsh   23- unass.   Ireland   R-L21
f8016   Warner   23- unass.    - unknown   R-L21
fN76046 Brown   23-1220    - unknown   R-L21
f41311  Eaton   23-1220   England-South East   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f174499 Harvey   23-1220   England-South West   R-L21
f173673 Rogers   23-1220   Isles/UK   R-L21
f37495  Rogers   23-1220   England-West Midlands   R-L21
f74975  Humphrey   23-13   Wales   R-L21
fN1871  Warren   23-13   Isles/UK   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f178560 Davis   23-1314   Wales   R-L21
f144928 Morgan   23-1314    - unknown   R-L21
f74772  Phillips   23-1314   England   R-L21
f160476 Welsh   23-1314   Ireland   R-L21
fN46295 Bonnet   23-1411   Italy   R-L21
f18917  Brun   23-1411   France-North Atlantic   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f165344 Greenlee   23-1411   Scotland-West & Central   zz predicted
f161264 Johnston   23-1411    - unknown   R-L21
f97610  Kehoe   23-1411   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f41836  Fancher   23-1421   England-London   R-L21
f101343 Fancher   23-1421   England   R-L21
f60575  Johnson   23-1421    - unknown   R-L21
fN10959 Johnson   23-1421   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f90660  Johnston   23-1421   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
f37464  Johnston   23-1421   Scotland   R-L21
f73834  Landon   23-1421   France   R-L21
f207798 Martin   23-1421   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f162881 Carroll   23-15   Ireland-Munster   R-L21
f46265  Craddock   23-15    - unknown   R-L21
f11435  Elliott   23-15   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
f104528 McDonald    23-15   Scotland-North   R-L21
f162597 Anderson   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f141902 Bryan   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f90439  Davis   23-15-WSW   England   zz predicted
f69464  Davis   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f156191 Evans   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
f81103  Griffin   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f77238  Jonas   23-15-WSW   Isles/UK   zz predicted
f137289 Morgan   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f208316 Newton   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f133436 Pool   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
fN29376 Powell   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f113011 Scott   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21
f156257 Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f19920  Stephens   23-15-WSW   Scotland   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f197585 Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f211712 Stephens   23-15-WSW   England   zz predicted
f110031 Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f25980  Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f26232  Stephens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21
f120942 Stevens   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
f27039  Stevens   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21
f147036 Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f154440 Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f49637  Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21
f64716  Vaughan   23-15-WSW    - unknown   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f125079 Vaughan   23-15-WSW   Wales   zz predicted
f108697 Vaughn   23-15-WSW   Wales   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f146350 Vaughn   23-15-WSW    - unknown   zz predicted
f34742  Workman(Vaughan)   23-15-WSW   Isles/UK   R-L21/DF49/DF23
f167278 Armstrong   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Ulster   zz predicted
f100219 Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Connacht   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f162015 Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Connacht   zz predicted
f79367  Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland   zz predicted
f107869 Kelly(Ui Maine)   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Leinster   zz predicted
f160027 Madden   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Munster   zz predicted
fN33146 O'Kelly   23-21-HyM   Ireland   zz predicted
f60472  Pugh   23-21-HyM   Wales   R-L21
f27822  Shannon   23-21-HyM   Ireland   zz predicted
f14875  Thomas   23-21-HyM   Wales   zz predicted
f159039 Trainor   23-21-HyM   Ireland   R-L21
f108030 Trainor   23-21-HyM   Ireland   R-L21
fN5677  Traynor   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
f132540 Traynor   23-21-HyM   Ireland-Ulster   R-L21
fN54996 Bennett   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
fE2711  Berge(Strandebarm)   23-22   Norway   R-L21
f178787 Burn   23-22   England-South West   R-L21
f197492 Burns   23-22   England-South West   zz predicted
f127795 Byrne   23-22   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21
f105475 Byrne   23-22   Ireland   zz predicted
f96442  Byrne   23-22   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21
f105473 Byrne   23-22   Ireland-Leinster   zz predicted
f13026  Davis   23-22   England-London   R-L21
f116686 Davis   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f216398 Davis   23-22   Isles/UK   R-L21
f100202 Elliott   23-22   Ireland   R-L21
f137136 Gale   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f200859 Gjon   23-22   Norway   R-L21
f132486 Harding   23-22   England   R-L21
fN36461 Heihiller   23-22   Norway   R-L21
f78065  Lamphier   23-22   France-Southwest   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f203844 Lewis   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f33333  Meek   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f24520  Pruner   23-22   Ireland-Munster   R-L21
f101669 Steele   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
yGRH3M  Tyrrell   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f159206 - unknown   23-22    - unknown   R-L21
f63595  Anglin   23-2224   Ireland-Munster   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f137235 Caldwell   23-2224   Ireland   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
fN26081 Caldwell   23-2224   Scotland   R-L21
f79710  Carll   23-2224   Isles/UK   R-L21
f79990  Coad    23-2224   England-South West   zz predicted
f97847  Coade   23-2224   England-South West   R-L21
f142592 Coode    23-2224   England-South West   zz predicted
f81225  Handlon   23-2224   Ireland-Leinster   R-L21
f120815 John   23-2224   Wales   R-L21
f67107  John   23-2224    - unknown   R-L21
fN26284 Leister   23-2224   Ireland   R-L21
fN29988 Nielson(Vejle)   23-2224   Denmark   R-L21
fN73727 Phillips   23-2224   Ireland   R-L21
f134396 Robison   23-2224   Scotland   R-L21
f119874 Stanton?   23-2224    - unknown   R-L21/DF49/DF23*
f177479 Wilson   23-2224   Scotland   R-L21
f141404  - unknown   23-2224    - unknown   zz predicted




Soundd like the Irish Sea was important.  Seems very western British to me.  A quite high number of the Irish seem post-Norman.  However, there are also a fair number of eastern Gaelic Irish who its tempting to link with the Laigin and other stories of connections with Celtic Britain and northern France.  However, geographical factors means history keeps repeating itself.  Even the surnames seem to indicate that this link happened more than once. The most interesting element to me is the likely prehistoric (or very ealry historic) link between native Welsh and native Irish indicated in the surnames.  I would love to have a handle on how distant (i.e what date) the native Irish vs native Welsh surnames are from each other.   I have bolded the names (I havent bolded all the duplicate names) I am pretty sure are unambigiously 'native' among the Welsh and Irish.  Others probably suffer from duplication and multiple options for origin. 
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 01:44:53 PM »

F164101 Dougherty, Ireland should be added to the 23-1411 group as predicted. He is actually closer to me at 64/67 than Greenlee 63/67.

As far as origin, Mr. Bonnet has made it clear to me that Greenlee, Dougherty and me are all products of an ancestor of his migrating to Ireland a few hundred years ago. So, I'd say all 23-1411 men must be from Italy.

I'm just reporting this stuff.  I admit that I want to cause some thinking beyond the box about M222 than just to say they are the "Northwest Irish," but's that it.

I think fN46295 Bonet is from the French border region in Torino, right? He hasn't confirmed with DF23 testing yet, has he?  He should get on with that. The other Italian, f11217 Basile is from Sicily, which is quite a ways away.  I see they both have 437=14 so perhaps Basile is close to your group.

What about the Kelly Ui Maine people? Do they have anything to do with Nial?

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 02:16:34 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 02:00:21 PM »

F164101 Dougherty, Ireland should be added to the 23-1411 group as predicted. He is actually closer to me at 64/67 than Greenlee 63/67.

As far as origin, Mr. Bonnet has made it clear to me that Greenlee, Dougherty and me are all products of an ancestor of his migrating to Ireland a few hundred years ago. So, I'd say all 23-1411 men must be from Italy.


I'm just reporting this stuff.  I admit that I want to cause some thinking beyond the box about M222 than just to say they are the "Northwest Irish," but's that it.

I think fN46295 Bonet is from the French border region in Torino, right? He hasn't confirmed with DF23 testing, yet has he?  He should get on with that.  The other Italian, f11217 Basile is from Sicily, which is quite a ways away.  I see they both have 437=14 so perhaps Basile is close to your group.

What about the Kelly Ui Maine people? Do they have anything to do with Nial?



The Uí Máine are an interesting group that's for sure. They have two purported genealogical ancestry's. One claims that's they are part of Clann Colla who migrated into South Connacht in the 4th century AD and conquered the Soghain (Soġain -- a group who like the Loíghis are given Cruithne lineages) of East Galway.

The second purported ancestry has them as actual Uí Néill. Been descended from a Máine mac Néill (a supposed son of Niall). In general in medieval times the Uí Máine were heavily connected to the Uí Briúin been one of the major sub-kingdoms of Connacht and owing allegience to the Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor's) of Connacht.

If you ask me it points to the Uí Maine been part of wider Connachta grouping, probably in the position as military vassals. We know for example that the pseudo-history talks about the conquest of Connacht and the spread of groups such as the Uí Fiachrach (M222+) into South Galway.

The Uí Maine kingship of course lasted until the Tudor Conquest of Ireland. Anyways I found the following on wiki so I'm not sure of it's providence but it's interesting overview of Uí Maine rights in the province of Connacht.

----
The Uί Maine was given rewards and treasures such as:
  • A portion of all ‘strongholds and seaport towns in the province’
  • A portion of all prizes and wrecks of the sea
        This included any wines or goods that had been washed to shore from shipwrecks, etc.
        It also included whales and fish which became to be known as ‘royal fish’ and were given to only the kings and queens
    • Hidden treasures found underground, all silver and gold mines and other metals
    • They were given a third of any revenues received by the king of Connacht of any other provinces where wrong had been done
      • The revenue (or eric) of killing a person was considered very large and in one document recorded was states as being ‘168 cows’

        Along with the privileges that Kings and queens of Uí Maine received, the clans that fought for Uí Maine were also given privileges and rights:
      • Any member of a clan was given a choice to go to battle in Spring or Autumn. Most members that chose not to attend battle spent time maintaining their crops.
        • It was required that "no man of the province is to be taken as witness against these tribes, but another Hy Manian is to bear witness."
        • If the King of Connacht did not pull out or end a battle in 6 weeks or less when fighting in Ulster or Leinster, any member was allowed to return home.
          "However great may be the accusation brought against them by dishonest people, only one man or one witness is required to dent it or prove it against the other party."
          Hy Manians that were baptized were to be baptized by the Comharba of St. Bridget. If parents chose not to baptize their children at St. Bridget's because they lived too far away they were required to pay the Comharba a penny.
          • Hy Manians were required to pay a ‘sgreaball ongtha’ to the Comharba to prepare for death during an illness. This fee was said to be 3 Irish pennies.

          ---
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 02:27:21 PM »

F164101 Dougherty, Ireland should be added to the 23-1411 group as predicted. He is actually closer to me at 64/67 than Greenlee 63/67.

As far as origin, Mr. Bonnet has made it clear to me that Greenlee, Dougherty and me are all products of an ancestor of his migrating to Ireland a few hundred years ago. So, I'd say all 23-1411 men must be from Italy.

Dub
I'm just reporting this stuff.  I admit that I want to cause some thinking beyond the box about M222 than just to say they are the "Northwest Irish," but's that it.

I think fN46295 Bonet is from the French border region in Torino, right? He hasn't confirmed with DF23 testing, yet has he?  He should get on with that.  The other Italian, f11217 Basile is from Sicily, which is quite a ways away.  I see they both have 437=14 so perhaps Basile is close to your group.

What about the Kelly Ui Maine people? Do they have anything to do with Nial?



The Uí Máine are an interesting group that's for sure. They have two purported genealogical ancestry's. One claims that's they are part of Clann Colla who migrated into South Connacht in the 4th century AD and conquered the Soghain (Soġain -- a group who like the Loíghis are given Cruithne lineages) of East Galway.

The second purported ancestry has them as actual Uí Néill. Been descended from a Máine mac Néill (a supposed son of Niall). In general in medieval times the Uí Máine were heavily connected to the Uí Briúin been one of the major sub-kingdoms of Connacht and owing allegience to the Ó Conchobhair (O'Connor's) of Connacht.

If you ask me it points to the Uí Maine been part of wider Connachta grouping, probably in the position as military vassals. We know for example that the pseudo-history talks about the conquest of Connacht and the spread of groups such as the Uí Fiachrach (M222+) into South Galway.

The Uí Maine kingship of course lasted until the Tudor Conquest of Ireland. Anyways I found the following on wiki so I'm not sure of it's providence but it's interesting overview of Uí Maine rights in the province of Connacht.

----
The Uί Maine was given rewards and treasures such as:
  • A portion of all ‘strongholds and seaport towns in the province’
  • A portion of all prizes and wrecks of the sea
        This included any wines or goods that had been washed to shore from shipwrecks, etc.
        It also included whales and fish which became to be known as ‘royal fish’ and were given to only the kings and queens
    • Hidden treasures found underground, all silver and gold mines and other metals
    • They were given a third of any revenues received by the king of Connacht of any other provinces where wrong had been done
      • The revenue (or eric) of killing a person was considered very large and in one document recorded was states as being ‘168 cows’

        Along with the privileges that Kings and queens of Uí Maine received, the clans that fought for Uí Maine were also given privileges and rights:
      • Any member of a clan was given a choice to go to battle in Spring or Autumn. Most members that chose not to attend battle spent time maintaining their crops.
        • It was required that "no man of the province is to be taken as witness against these tribes, but another Hy Manian is to bear witness."
        • If the King of Connacht did not pull out or end a battle in 6 weeks or less when fighting in Ulster or Leinster, any member was allowed to return home.
          "However great may be the accusation brought against them by dishonest people, only one man or one witness is required to dent it or prove it against the other party."
          Hy Manians that were baptized were to be baptized by the Comharba of St. Bridget. If parents chose not to baptize their children at St. Bridget's because they lived too far away they were required to pay the Comharba a penny.
          • Hy Manians were required to pay a ‘sgreaball ongtha’ to the Comharba to prepare for death during an illness. This fee was said to be 3 Irish pennies.

          ---
Dubhthact,

Great. This sounds like it comes from the The Tribes and Customs of HyMany, translated by O Donovan. Also, the Brehon Laws, much it by the way has yet to be translated, for lack of "old Gaelic" scholars. Ui Maine or Hymany corresponds roughly to the diocese of Clonfert, located in East Galway and extending across the Shannon to North Tipperary and parts of Offaly. Their Brehon Judges and Bards were the Mc Egans of BallyMacegan, Duniry and Park Co. Galway which is my closest genetic and historical match. Difficult to find a more Gaelic clan.

http://www.clanegan.org/CR/MichaelJSEgan2008.pdf

Here is their detailed genealogy in Gaelic and English.

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G105007/index.html[/list][/list][/list][/

The Shannon river was the main North South highway in ancient times and almost connected with the Erne River System and the M222 heathland. The Erne and Shannon are now connected by canal. The East West corridor was the The Esker Riada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker_Riada[/list]
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 03:21:55 PM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 03:09:26 PM »

I can't think of any Brehon law texts that haven't been translated. You have to remember there are plenty  of people in academia who can still read these texts as they are as they are mostly found in "Early Modern Irish" or if older "Middle Irish" (Old Irish texts aren't as common)

There are several M222+ Egan's that show up in various projects. Here's what Woulfe has to say in his 1923 book:

---
Mac AODHAGÁIN—IV—M'Egaine, M'Hegane, M'Keagan, M'Kiegane, MacEgan, MacKeegan, Egan, Heagan, Keegan, etc.; 'son of Aodhagán' (a diminutive of Aodh); the name of a distinguished brehon family. They belonged originally to the district of Ui Maine in Connacht; but in the 14th and 15th centuries, branches of the family settled in Ormond, Desmond, and many other parts of Ireland, where they became brehons to the local chieftains. They also kept schools of law, and many learned men and eminent professors of the same name are mentioned in the Irish annals.

--
Ao cluster is either pronunced as long-e (like ay in pay/say/gay) or as long i (ee in see, bee, dee) depending on geographical location (Leath Mogha vs. Leath Cuinn

See isogloss map showing spilt here:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ao-isogloss.png

---
Just to clear up pronunciation of Uí -- in Irish if you have two vowels beside each other and one has a fada (accent) on it then it's pronunced only as that. In the case of Uí it's pronunced as í -- in english this would be "ee" (English had a vowel shift in middle ages where long e became long i in pronunciation)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 03:12:16 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 03:58:04 PM »

F164101 Dougherty, Ireland should be added to the 23-1411 group as predicted. He is actually closer to me at 64/67 than Greenlee 63/67.

As far as origin, Mr. Bonnet has made it clear to me that Greenlee, Dougherty and me are all products of an ancestor of his migrating to Ireland a few hundred years ago. So, I'd say all 23-1411 men must be from Italy.

I'm just reporting this stuff.  I admit that I want to cause some thinking beyond the box about M222 than just to say they are the "Northwest Irish," but's that it.

I think fN46295 Bonet is from the French border region in Torino, right? He hasn't confirmed with DF23 testing yet, has he?  He should get on with that. The other Italian, f11217 Basile is from Sicily, which is quite a ways away.  I see they both have 437=14 so perhaps Basile is close to your group.

What about the Kelly Ui Maine people? Do they have anything to do with Nial?



I know you're just reporting the information as given you, but there is no use in disputing Mr. Bonnet. He traces his family back to the 1400s, I believe, and I can only trace mine back to Wexford in 1799. I don't think Greenlee or Dougherty can beat that either. So, I think we should just accept all 23-1411 as Italian. Besides, who would accept that an Irish guy or a Scot migrated to the Continent! I don't believe there is even one such case that has been accepted.

As I've said before, I think it's interesting that my name Kehoe (MacEochaidh/MacEochadha) has been connected to the O'Kelly and the O'Byrnes in Irish Genealogies. Again though, I am the product of an Italian migration a few hundred years back.
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 04:50:38 PM »

I thought Bonnet was adopted or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly the discussion on DNA-Forums. In which case the 15th century Italian ancestry is a bit moot
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 05:30:25 PM »

I thought Bonnet was adopted or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly the discussion on DNA-Forums. In which case the 15th century Italian ancestry is a bit moot
Can you find the reference to that?  I generally just go with whatever the kit owner says either in FTDNA and/or in Ysearch. I see he is still listing Piedmont, Italy.
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 06:48:08 PM »

I thought Bonnet was adopted or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly the discussion on DNA-Forums. In which case the 15th century Italian ancestry is a bit moot

Mr. Bonnett has stated that he was adopted. His adopted name is Perry. He says that the sister of his biological father is the one who has done the family genealogy. I believe those statements may be found on this forum or the L21 forum.

EDIT: However, you have to accept what he says as the truth. What other choice is there? There are thousand of testers who give their details of their ancestry, what can we do other than accept what they say? And because of that his Continental ancestry trumps Greenlee/Dougherty/Kehoe Isles ancestry as far as origin. If there is a case where Isles ancestry trumps Continental ancestry for the origin of any L21 haplotype or any L21 subclade, I have never seen it.
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 09:20:46 PM »

AODHAGÁIN-AEDHAGHAN- now Aidan. Aodh is alsoi written as Aedh pronounced- Ee still in Dublin but Ae up north. Some  (old Folks) say it was always pronounced Ae in Donegal.
meaning 'the little white fire'- a family name of the Ui Neill also the QUINN S.
H normally means the proceeding vowel is softened so- AEDHAGHAN would be Ae-A(gh)-AN. this would be most common in Tyrone.
There were also many Irish names changed to English by 'Them's that took the soup' in the famine  e.g. Armstrong was adopted by the Lavery's- Lamh Roi.
Interestingly Morgan seems to have 2 sorces 1) from Wales (as in Glamorgan and 2) from Scotland possibly from Morgun supposedly pictish. A 3rd is supposed to be native Irish and come from Morrigan (the Goddess) I think this is very suspect may be fancy-full.
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 11:04:01 PM »

AODHAGÁIN-AEDHAGHAN- now Aidan. Aodh is alsoi written as Aedh pronounced- Ee still in Dublin but Ae up north. Some  (old Folks) say it was always pronounced Ae in Donegal.
meaning 'the little white fire'- a family name of the Ui Neill also the QUINN S.
H normally means the proceeding vowel is softened so- AEDHAGHAN would be Ae-A(gh)-AN. this would be most common in Tyrone.
There were also many Irish names changed to English by 'Them's that took the soup' in the famine  e.g. Armstrong was adopted by the Lavery's- Lamh Roi.
Interestingly Morgan seems to have 2 sorces 1) from Wales (as in Glamorgan and 2) from Scotland possibly from Morgun supposedly pictish. A 3rd is supposed to be native Irish and come from Morrigan (the Goddess) I think this is very suspect may be fancy-full.
My great great grandfather and his father were Wexford men named Mogue (mo Aodh og) "my young Aodh". My family and others in the area use Aidan now for the same name. All after St. Aidan (Mogue).
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 12:06:11 AM »

I thought Bonnet was adopted or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly the discussion on DNA-Forums. In which case the 15th century Italian ancestry is a bit moot

Mr. Bonnett has stated that he was adopted. His adopted name is Perry. He says that the sister of his biological father is the one who has done the family genealogy. I believe those statements may be found on this forum or the L21 forum.

EDIT: However, you have to accept what he says as the truth. What other choice is there? There are thousand of testers who give their details of their ancestry, what can we do other than accept what they say? And because of that his Continental ancestry trumps Greenlee/Dougherty/Kehoe Isles ancestry as far as origin. If there is a case where Isles ancestry trumps Continental ancestry for the origin of any L21 haplotype or any L21 subclade, I have never seen it.

Miles, if you challenge something you have to cite references.  I don't know what to do when reporting or analyzing data without references.  Here is what our L21 project has for the category of Italy:

11217    Gaetano C. Basil, b. 1845 Sicily - d.13 Jan. 1903, Italy         
196716    Giovanni DeFato b. 1866, Spinazzola, Bari, Italy
129964    Como, Lombardy, Italy                         
N46295    Daniel Bonnet b.1658, Mentoulles, Piemonte Italy               
N58990    Giuseppe Vallone (b. 1842) Italy                       
155493    Angelo Petronio Giuseppe Leimone 1838-1888, Italy
118673    Antonino Vallone Valledolmo Sicily, Italy

These are confirmed L21+ people.  I'm not sure if their MDKA's are right. Please refer to any corrections you feel necessary with specifics.
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 03:55:38 AM »

I can't think of any Brehon law texts that haven't been translated. You have to remember there are plenty  of people in academia who can still read these texts as they are as they are mostly found in "Early Modern Irish" or if older "Middle Irish" (Old Irish texts aren't as common)
Quote

Dubhthact,
My impression cam from a Celtic scolar in a Wales University over ten years ago when he complained about the monumental task at hand and scarcity of scolars to tackel the task. We were discussing the Hammumabi Cuniform Code at the time.
I am glad to hear the situation has improved. Thanks for putting me straight.


"The CELT Project (Corpus of Electronic Texts), underway at University College Cork, Ireland, is in the process of scanning, indexing and making the laws available on the internet for complete dissemination and translation. It is a monumental task. The laws are written, with their accompanying glosses and commentaries, in Old, Middle and Early Modern Irish. The corpus contains upwards of two million words, with only a handful of qualified scholars to do the work of translation."

http://ua_tuathal.tripod.com/law.html
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 04:07:44 AM »

I can't think of any Brehon law texts that haven't been translated. You have to remember there are plenty  of people in academia who can still read these texts as they are as they are mostly found in "Early Modern Irish" or if older "Middle Irish" (Old Irish texts aren't as common)
Quote

Dubhthact,
My impression came from a Celtic scolar in a Wales University over ten years ago when he complained about the monumental task at hand and scarcity of scolars to tackle the task. We were discussing the Hammumabi Cuniform Code at the time.
I am glad to hear the situation has improved. Thanks for putting me straight.


"The CELT Project (Corpus of Electronic Texts), underway at University College Cork, Ireland, is in the process of scanning, indexing and making the laws available on the internet for complete dissemination and translation. It is a monumental task. The laws are written, with their accompanying glosses and commentaries, in Old, Middle and Early Modern Irish. The corpus contains upwards of two million words, with only a handful of qualified scholars to do the work of translation."

http://ua_tuathal.tripod.com/law.html
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eochaidh
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 08:35:52 AM »

I thought Bonnet was adopted or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly the discussion on DNA-Forums. In which case the 15th century Italian ancestry is a bit moot

Mr. Bonnett has stated that he was adopted. His adopted name is Perry. He says that the sister of his biological father is the one who has done the family genealogy. I believe those statements may be found on this forum or the L21 forum.

EDIT: However, you have to accept what he says as the truth. What other choice is there? There are thousand of testers who give their details of their ancestry, what can we do other than accept what they say? And because of that his Continental ancestry trumps Greenlee/Dougherty/Kehoe Isles ancestry as far as origin. If there is a case where Isles ancestry trumps Continental ancestry for the origin of any L21 haplotype or any L21 subclade, I have never seen it.

Miles, if you challenge something you have to cite references.  I don't know what to do when reporting or analyzing data without references.  Here is what our L21 project has for the category of Italy:

11217    Gaetano C. Basil, b. 1845 Sicily - d.13 Jan. 1903, Italy         
196716    Giovanni DeFato b. 1866, Spinazzola, Bari, Italy
129964    Como, Lombardy, Italy                         
N46295    Daniel Bonnet b.1658, Mentoulles, Piemonte Italy               
N58990    Giuseppe Vallone (b. 1842) Italy                       
155493    Angelo Petronio Giuseppe Leimone 1838-1888, Italy
118673    Antonino Vallone Valledolmo Sicily, Italy

These are confirmed L21+ people.  I'm not sure if their MDKA's are right. Please refer to any corrections you feel necessary with specifics.

They cannot be challenged. They must be accepted. Several Irish posters have posted studies and articles about Irish on the Continent, but they are dismissed outright. I, myself, have a relation, Myles Keogh, who served in the Papal Army in the late 1850s/early1860s. He was in Italy with hundreds, perhaps thousand of Irishmen, but there is no possible way that any of them could have had a sexual relationship with a woman in Italy. He was in his early 20s and later served in the Union Army and the 7th Cavalry. Many of the young Irishmen who served in the Papal Army also went on to serve in the Union Army. They may have had sexual relations in the U.S., but it is out of the realm of possibility that they had sexual relations in Italy.

All of the above men are Italian L21 and Italy must be considered as the source of L21 and (or that particular L21 haplotype), or in the case of Bonnett, the origin of DF23.
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 09:02:42 AM »

I thought Bonnet was adopted or perhaps I'm not remembering correctly the discussion on DNA-Forums. In which case the 15th century Italian ancestry is a bit moot

Mr. Bonnett has stated that he was adopted. His adopted name is Perry. He says that the sister of his biological father is the one who has done the family genealogy. I believe those statements may be found on this forum or the L21 forum.

EDIT: However, you have to accept what he says as the truth. What other choice is there? There are thousand of testers who give their details of their ancestry, what can we do other than accept what they say? And because of that his Continental ancestry trumps Greenlee/Dougherty/Kehoe Isles ancestry as far as origin. If there is a case where Isles ancestry trumps Continental ancestry for the origin of any L21 haplotype or any L21 subclade, I have never seen it.

Miles, if you challenge something you have to cite references.  I don't know what to do when reporting or analyzing data without references.  Here is what our L21 project has for the category of Italy:

11217    Gaetano C. Basil, b. 1845 Sicily - d.13 Jan. 1903, Italy         
196716    Giovanni DeFato b. 1866, Spinazzola, Bari, Italy
129964    Como, Lombardy, Italy                         
N46295    Daniel Bonnet b.1658, Mentoulles, Piemonte Italy               
N58990    Giuseppe Vallone (b. 1842) Italy                       
155493    Angelo Petronio Giuseppe Leimone 1838-1888, Italy
118673    Antonino Vallone Valledolmo Sicily, Italy

These are confirmed L21+ people.  I'm not sure if their MDKA's are right. Please refer to any corrections you feel necessary with specifics.

They cannot be challenged. They must be accepted. Several Irish posters have posted studies and articles about Irish on the Continent, but they are dismissed outright. I, myself, have a relation, Myles Keogh, who served in the Papal Army in the late 1850s/early1860s. He was in Italy with hundreds, perhaps thousand of Irishmen, but there is no possible way that any of them could have had a sexual relationship with a woman in Italy. He was in his early 20s and later served in the Union Army and the 7th Cavalry. Many of the young Irishmen who served in the Papal Army also went on to serve in the Union Army. They may have had sexual relations in the U.S., but it is out of the realm of possibility that they had sexual relations in Italy.

All of the above men are Italian L21 and Italy must be considered as the source of L21 and (or that particular L21 haplotype), or in the case of Bonnett, the origin of DF23.

I don't think L21 originated in Italy and I have no idea what the genealogies of those who list Italian MDKA's are. I also don't yours and I'm not sure I really care. I just hope people are reporting their data as accurately as they can.

What's the point of all the sarcasm?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 09:03:45 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 09:25:38 AM »

Just as an FYI for L21 folks:

Kit no. 223929, Frank Colangelo, b.1889 San Fele, Italy; d.1974

This kit's haplogroup is listed as R1b1a2a1a1b4f because of his L159.2+ test. However, he has already tested L21-.

Thomas has order additional SNPs for him and he is L23+P310+P312+ with U152 pending. More than likely he will be U152+ or DF27+ 
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 08:44:18 PM »

Just as an FYI for L21 folks:

Kit no. 223929, Frank Colangelo, b.1889 San Fele, Italy; d.1974

This kit's haplogroup is listed as R1b1a2a1a1b4f because of his L159.2+ test. However, he has already tested L21-.

Thomas has order additional SNPs for him and he is L23+P310+P312+ with U152 pending. More than likely he will be U152+ or DF27+ 

Thanks for the heads up.

I'll keep an eye out for that.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 09:26:07 PM »

I was once L159.2+ also.

Perhaps retesting is a good idea?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 09:26:40 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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eochaidh
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 08:45:48 AM »

Over 1,000 Irishmen fought in the Papal Army in the 1860s. Does this account for all L21 in Italy? Certainly not. Does this account for all DF23 in Italy? Certainly not. Is there a possibility that some of these Irishmen stayed in Italy. Yes. Is there a possibility that some of these Irishmen had sexual relations in Italy that led to NPEs? Yes. Could any of the L21 or DF23 results be due to the 1,000+ Irishmen in Italy in the 1860s? Yes. Myles Keogh is my great, great grandfather's first cousin. Unless there has been a recent NPE, he would be DF23.
http://iankenneally.net/page2.php

I'll also add that my Taaffe family also had relations who lived in Italy, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia, the Czech Republic and Germany. I don't know the haplogroup of my Taaffe family, but they are a prime example of Irish having large families on the Continent.

As I have mentioned before, there was a Theodoro McKeogh who fought in the Spanish Netherlands along side of other Irishmen. I don't know if he is a relation of mine, but it is again an example of Irishmen on the Continent.

I would say that there is very little chance that some L21/DF23/M222 found on the Continent came from Irishmen. SOME. Does it mean L21/DF23/M222 originated in Ireland? NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!!!!!

My example is from one Irish family. Thousands of other Irish families have relations on the Continent, whether they know it or not.
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mtDNA: T2g
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2012, 09:25:01 AM »

Busby L21 numbers in Italy:

Total Sampled:  1119
L21:  11
M222:  0
Italian L21 country total: 0.9%

Northern Italy has three times more L21 than anywhere else (3.1%), but the Papal States did not extend that far.

If I had to guess, I would say the source of L21 in N. Italy seems to be from either Provence (Ligurian) or the Marne (La Tene).
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
eochaidh
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 09:33:56 AM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.
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mtDNA: T2g
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 09:55:15 AM »

Yes, you must be correct. If an Irishman came all the way from Ireland he would be much too tired to move around Italy for many generations. French people move much easier than Irish people.

If you think you are sounding smarter by applying sarcasm, it's not working.

France makes more sense because it a couple of million times more logical than your weak theory.

Provence L21: 19.4%
Provence M222:  0%
Central France:  9.9%
Central France:  0%

Now you see why I think Italy's L21 was sourced from France? Your use of a few hundred Irish Papal Troops as the source is easily trumped by a La Tene migrations that numbered over 100,000 and never left Italy.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:55:47 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
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