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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 06:54:55 PM »

From Myres.et.al.2010 Table-S4 R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88)

Germany (n=321) R1b-M343* is 0.31%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/141 or 0.71%

Slovakia (n=276) R1b-M343* is 0.72%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 2/45 or 4.44%

Ukraine (n=504) R1b-M343* is 0.20%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/29 or 3.45%

Tatars (n=119) R1b-M343* is 0.84%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/9 or 11.11%

Romania (n=330) R1b-M343* is 0.30%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/40 or 2.50%

Kurds (Kazakhstan) (n=23) R1b-M343* is 13%

They only have 3/23 R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) and 0 R1b-M269+

Turkey (n=611) R1b-M343* is 0.66%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 4/91 or 4.40%

Everybody else's got 0% R1b-M343(xM73,V88,M269)


*Here is something interesting Jordan(n=222) has 20/222 or 9.0% R1b-V88, in fact their ratio of R1b-V88 to R1b-M269+ all is 20/8 or 250%. Palestine(n=49) has 1 R1b-V88 and 1 R1b-M269+, Iran(n=150) has 1 R1b-V88 and 12 R1b-M269+.

Looks like the Kurds and Tatars are the clear winner with maybe Jordan depending on how we look at V88.

Iran is a bit high on the M269, given the region, is that what you are saying?
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JeanL
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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 07:51:06 PM »


Looks like the Kurds and Tatars are the clear winner with maybe Jordan depending on how we look at V88.

Iran is a bit high on the M269, given the region, is that what you are saying?

I don't think the presence of V88 in Jordan really matters when it comes to R1b-M343*, they seem to have 0% of R1b-M343* according to Myres.et.al.2010. As for Iran, I just wanted to show all the Levant+Mesopotamia data with respect to R1b-M269 and R1b-V88, that's it.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 11:45:05 PM »


Looks like the Kurds and Tatars are the clear winner with maybe Jordan depending on how we look at V88.

Iran is a bit high on the M269, given the region, is that what you are saying?

I don't think the presence of V88 in Jordan really matters when it comes to R1b-M343*, they seem to have 0% of R1b-M343* according to Myres.et.al.2010. As for Iran, I just wanted to show all the Levant+Mesopotamia data with respect to R1b-M269 and R1b-V88, that's it.

I'm not sure you can say that V88 doesn't matter.

It is R-M343+ M269-.  There are (or at least were) probably a number of M343+ M269- people.

We can view that mass of Western Europe R-343+ as L11+ because they are. M269 is upstream of L11 and M343 is a couple of more steps upstream.  

From a simplistic family view.  M343 would be like 3xg-grandfather, M269 as the grandfather and L11 as the father. L11's 2nd and 3rd and 4th cousins are M343+ and L11-. The further back you go, i.e. V88, the more ancient the relationship. V88 is not unimportant but V88 is singular so V88 does not represent a great deal of haplogroup diversity within R1b, in and of itself.

If we look for the others beside V88 and M73 the pickings are slim, but here are the top populations according to Myres:

Kurds (Kazkhstan) with 13% (of total population)
Tatars
Turkey (Cappadocia)
and finally
Ukraine West
Turkey (other)
Romanians

R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

It looks like the Kurds of Kazkhstan are the big winners.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 11:47:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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JeanL
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 12:13:13 AM »


I'm not sure you can say that V88 doesn't matter.

Yes R1b-V88 doesn’t really matter, why because those folks aren’t really R1b-V88, but probably something downstream of R1b-V88, R1b-V88 is just a sibling clade of R1b-M269, as it is R1b-M73, so they are neither ancient nor special.

It is R-M343+ M269-.  There are (or at least were) probably a number of M343+ M269- people.

We can view that mass of Western Europe R-343+ as L11+ because they are. M269 is upstream of L11 and M343 is a couple of more steps upstream. 

From a simplistic family view.  M343 would be like 3xg-grandfather, M269 as the grandfather and L11 as the father. L11's 2nd and 3rd and 4th cousins are M343+ and L11-. The further back you go, i.e. V88, the more ancient the relationship. V88 is not unimportant but V88 is singular so V88 does not represent a great deal of haplogroup diversity within R1b, in and of itself.

Yes, but that doesn’t say anything about the origin of R1b-M343, whereas the presence of surviving lineages that aren’t members of the M269, M73 or V88 lineages gives clues as to the origin of R1b-M343, or at least the places where M269, M73 or V88 were not born in.

If we look for the others beside V88 and M73 the pickings are slim, but here are the top populations according to Myres:

Kurds (Kazkhstan) with 13% (of total population)
Tatars
Turkey (Cappadocia)
and finally
Ukraine West
Turkey (other)
Romanians

R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

It looks like the Kurds of Kazkhstan are the big winners.

Uhmm no, it goes more like this:

Kurds (Kazakhstan) (n=23) R1b-M343* is 13%

They only have 3/23 R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) and 0 R1b-M269+

Tatars (n=119) R1b-M343* is 0.84%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/9 or 11.11%

Slovakia (n=276) R1b-M343* is 0.72%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 2/45 or 4.44%

Turkey (n=611) R1b-M343* is 0.66%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 4/91 or 4.40%

Germany (n=321) R1b-M343* is 0.31%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/141 or 0.71%

Romania (n=330) R1b-M343* is 0.30%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/40 or 2.50%

Ukraine (n=504) R1b-M343* is 0.20%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/29 or 3.45%


Seems like third place belong to Slovakians(n=276) where R1b-M343* accounts for 0.72% of all lineages, and 4.44% with respect to R1b-M269. The Kurds have pretty darn low sample size, hence why 3 R1b-M343* lineages give them a frequency of 13%, whereas in the Slovakians 2 give them a frequency of only 0.72%.

R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

Oh really!!!!

European R1b-M343*
Slovakia-2
Germany-1
Romania-1
Ukraine-1
Total R1b-M343* 5

Asian R1b-M343*
Kurds-3
Turkey-4
Tatars-1
Total R1b-M343* 8

Again, that doesn't lend too much support to R1b-M343* hardly shows up in Europe, it lends more support to R1b-M343* hardly shows up anywhere.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:17:56 AM by JeanL » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 09:09:17 AM »

I think it is significant.  Low numbers is not the issue.  It seems that the roots of R1b are going to be in places where R1b is fairly rare and the upstream clades even rarer.  This makes it difficult and expensive to find as it requires big samples to pick even a few up.  However, I think the collective evidence of the upstream of M343 and also the M73 clade (excepting V88) is fairly strongly pointing to an origin to the north of the farming area and among people originally with steppe associations.  I think it shows that upstream R1b was clearly in the path of these peoples in the steppes and got absorbed into these later groups like Tatars (some of whole had partial origins among Scythians etc), the Iranic Kurds, Persian Hazaras, Bashkirs and Turks.  I dont believe either is their original ethnic group or language but it kind of points to these clades being swept along and absorbed into various groups who passed along the steppes.  So I would tend to think they must have been in steppes area.  Another thing I would note is the small numbers do not point to a farming population origin in deeper time which I think rules out a position in northern Mesopotamia or Turkey in the Neolithic, something Dienekes has also pointed out in his analysis of the recent haplotype G paper where he sees R1b being anciently positioned somewhere east of G. 

My impression is that other than V88, R1b only intruded into the farming zone first in the form of L23* (bringing a minorituy of M269* too).  My reading of Anthony''s Kurganist bible would be that L23* would be linked to Suvorovo culture in his model, which he links with Anatolian archaic proto-IE although I would imagine some of it would have soon become fully PIE given the multiple waves that overrun that area.  That would seem to fit the age, position and associations of L23* in a Kurgan model.   I believe Jean L found L23* to have its highest variance close to the Danube mouth area where Suvorovo arrived and mixed with the local farmers.  I personally woud imagine some L23* remained close enough to the core of PIE to develop beyond the archaic PIE (Anatolian) phase and into the centum PIE ancestors of the L51 peoples who somehow moved to western Europe.  If Anatolian was in a location where the development from archaic PIE to PIE did not happen then it seems impossible that the PIE ancestors of Celto-Italic etc were located as remotely from the core as the Anatolians (who may not have even been in Anatolia at the time).  So this would tend to suggest that some L23* remained a little to the north and in contact with the steppes while other L23* didnt.  L51 seems to have had an overwhelming advantage in the west so this (and the IE tree of language fission) would suggest to me that it was 'first in' in terms of the R1 peoples advance west in parts of Europe and in a postion to halt other groups taking power.  That advantage could have been simply chronological or maybe it was a combination of naval power and some sort of archery and horseback combo that rivals did not have.     

A paper on beaker archery noted

 in Eastern Europe there areindications for the use of short composite bows. Such indications include bow shaped pendants thatappear exclusively in graves of males and seem to be of a composite construction.  In Sion in Switzerland, a stone slab found in a burial has carvings of short, and therefore likely composite bows.  

The paper did show that wristguards worked with simple long bows but no bows have been found in beaker graves.  I know horseback archery with composite bows is seen an Iron Age thing and only attested from the 10th century BC but it does make you wonder if it was possible the beaker folk had some sort of really devastating military advantage akin to that.  Its probably moonshine but can you imagine how devastating an advantage that would have been? The chariot was probably not invented until c. 2100BC by the Santasha culture so it wasnt an option when the beakers spread into Europe.  Mounted archery seems to be more about technique and skill than technology and the peoples who originally practiced it had no proper saddles, stirrups etc.  Stirrups were not invented until somewhere between 500-200BC.

On the other hand a race of maritime expert, equestrian expert, archery masters and metalworking champs is maybe getting a bit too greedy :0)   
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 11:41:47 AM »

Kurds (Kazakhstan) (n=23) R1b-M343* is 13%

R*
R1*
R2*
R1b-M343*

Interesting the common regions these distinct markers share.
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »


I'm not sure you can say that V88 doesn't matter.

Yes R1b-V88 doesn’t really matter, why because those folks aren’t really R1b-V88, but probably something downstream of R1b-V88, R1b-V88 is just a sibling clade of R1b-M269, as it is R1b-M73, so they are neither ancient nor special.  

JeanL, you are going to make the V88 people feel bad if you keep talking like that! LOL.  With reasoning like that, no one (even an L705.2 guy like myself) is really anything because there is always another downstream SNP.

I'll revisit the whole concept of 2nd, 3rd cousins and deep (ancient) branching within a family, but I have other stuff to do for a while.  I may have to highlight this point because it is not getting through.  My focus in the discussion point is on a n c i e n t    b r a n c h i n g .



R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

Oh really!!!!
....
Again, that doesn't lend too much support to R1b-M343* hardly shows up in Europe, it lends more support to R1b-M343* hardly shows up anywhere.  

I absolutely agree that R1b-M343* hardly shows up anywhere.  However, I don't know if you are intentionally twisting my words or what, but that is NOT what I said.  I said, R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

If choose to not think that V88 or M73 are important, or R2 prior to that, that's okay. However, let's argue about the importance of distant cousins, rather than twisting my words.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 07:12:05 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2012, 05:49:03 PM »

Kurds (Kazakhstan) (n=23) R1b-M343* is 13%

R*
R1*
R2*
R1b-M343*

Interesting the common regions these distinct markers share.

Are you saying the "Kurds (Kazakhstan)" exhibit these haplogroups?  If so, then that is some diversity in haplogroup R!  This is better stuff than STR diversity. People can argue about STR linear duration/saturation, etc. but haplogroup diversity is just plain haplogroup diversity.  I don't think we see this mix in a clan in Ireland.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 05:50:28 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 02:03:50 AM »

A little broader region perhaps 400 to 600 miles in diameter.  Northern Pakistan to Southern Khazakstan to the home of the famous Cherchen man with Tartan leggings[Taklamakan Desert]
An area with perhaps all of the following variance.

R*
R1*
R2*
R1b-M343*
Q*

On a side note, the center of this area is Kyrsyzstan.
A little far fetched because lack of 67 marker base, but interesting none the less, especially for the Dys 464 config 14_15_16_17.

Ysearch: HFQK3K Kyrgyzstan
                                                                          
                                                          DB9H7Katranov Ukraine 34/5
2SFDH Painter Germany 32/5
2MKTJ Booher Germany 32/5

These have a little flavour of the 1180a.d. Pardubice Czech Monestary U98VT featured on JeanM website.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:05:07 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 09:49:12 AM »

I absolutely agree that R1b-M343* hardly shows up anywhere.  However, I don't know if you are intentionally twisting my words or what, but that is NOT what I said.  I said, R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

Well, it seems I misread what you said, I thought by R1bxM269, you mean R1bxM269,M73,V88, but apparently I was wrong.

If choose to not think that V88 or M73 are important, or R2 prior to that, that's okay. However, let's argue about the importance of distant cousins, rather than twisting my words.

I don’t think V88 or M73 modern distribution would give many clues as to the origin of M269, just as the overwhelming presence of M269 in Europe doesn’t necessarily give a clue as to the origin of M269. Is there any literature as to the variance of M73, I just went through a stack of genetic papers that I have in my computer, and the closest thing I found was Ancient links between Siberians and Native Americans revealed by subtyping the Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a. Table-2:

R1b1b1-M73 (pooled) (n=63) Coalescence age estimate 39.6+-21.25 kya.

Pooled=Including individuals from South Siberia (present study), China (Han, Tibetans, Mongolians, Uygurs, Kyrgyz, Naxi), Turkey, North Pakistan, the Caucasus (Balkars, Kabardinians, Megrels),
East Europe (Mari, Tatars, Bashkirs, Russians)

This was done using Zhivotovsky evolutionary rate, and 7 STRs: DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393.
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2012, 03:32:28 PM »

I absolutely agree that R1b-M343* hardly shows up anywhere.  However, I don't know if you are intentionally twisting my words or what, but that is NOT what I said.  I said, R1bxM269 hardly shows up in Europe at all.

Well, it seems I misread what you said, I thought by R1bxM269, you mean R1bxM269,M73,V88, but apparently I was wrong.

If choose to not think that V88 or M73 are important, or R2 prior to that, that's okay. However, let's argue about the importance of distant cousins, rather than twisting my words.

I don’t think V88 or M73 modern distribution would give many clues as to the origin of M269, just as the overwhelming presence of M269 in Europe doesn’t necessarily give a clue as to the origin of M269. Is there any literature as to the variance of M73, I just went through a stack of genetic papers that I have in my computer, and the closest thing I found was Ancient links between Siberians and Native Americans revealed by subtyping the Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a. Table-2:

R1b1b1-M73 (pooled) (n=63) Coalescence age estimate 39.6+-21.25 kya.

Pooled=Including individuals from South Siberia (present study), China (Han, Tibetans, Mongolians, Uygurs, Kyrgyz, Naxi), Turkey, North Pakistan, the Caucasus (Balkars, Kabardinians, Megrels),
East Europe (Mari, Tatars, Bashkirs, Russians)

This was done using Zhivotovsky evolutionary rate, and 7 STRs: DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393.

Since Malyarchuk is using only 7 STRs and Marko Heinila has 3 of those 7 (389I, 389II & 391) has having linear durations less than 5K years I don't think we can rely on their estimates.

We might also consider that they used the Zhiv's evolutionary rates so if we divided their R1b-M73 coalescence age estimate of 39.6. If it turns out the germ-line rates are the correct ones we could divide by three to 13.2 ybp.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with these dates.

I see the R1b-M73 geographic range is pretty much Russia on the eastern most side all the way to China.  That I can understand since it is a cousin to R1b-M269 that seems to lead credence that cousin M269 might have come from the east into Western Europe.

Where is simple R1b haplogroup diversity considering M269 and M73 the greatest?  They don't intersect in too many places but it looks like you are pointing us to the Pontic Steppes or Anatolia or just east or south.

This is not rocket science, but we talking about vast expanses from Ireland to China.  
Why might we be interested in the intersection between R1b1a2(M269)'s and R1b1a1(M73)'s territories?
We might consider that their overlapping territory might be a good place to look for their common father, R1b1a(P297)
.
Of course, where the father is from gives us some indications on where the sons might be from.  Do you have a better place to look?   No proof, but I think the odds are small that M269's and M73's common ancestor are from either Dublin or Bejing.  Perhaps we should look in between?  Given the travel and survival considerations in prehistoric times this is even more important.

If the principal that there is one, real person who is the common ancestor and he could only be in one place at a time with limited travel capabilities is of any meaning, then the higher odds places to look would be at the intersection (or very near) of the two sons' territories.

What about cousins and second cousins for M269 and M73?    Where do we find V88?, R2 and R1a?  Maybe if we know where other descendants of the grandfather and g-grandfather are found that will provide additional pieces to the puzzle?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:55:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2012, 04:25:16 PM »

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with these dates.

I was just simply showing one of the few examples I’ve seen were the variance of R1b-M73 was calculated.

This is not rocket science, but we talking about vast expanses from Ireland to China. 
Why might we be interested in the intersection between R1b1a2(M269)'s and R1b1a1(M73)'s territories?
We might consider that their overlapping territory might be a good place to look for their common father, R1b1a(P297)
.

Such scenario assumes that all R1b1a(P297) was confined to a single region, and that mutations M269 and M73 arose in that same region, it is equally likely that R1b1a(P297) started expanding, and while expanding the M269 mutation arose, and became successful amongst the P297 pool, then at a later or earlier time you had a different expansion where the M73 mutation arose, or even the R1b-V88. So, an intersection might not really give you any details, for all you know that region simply absorbed both M269 and M73, and has nothing to do with P297. Do you think R1b-L21, R1b-Z196 and R1b-U152 all arose in the same area, or in an area that was relatively close?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:25:39 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2012, 06:23:02 PM »


I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with these dates.

I was just simply showing one of the few examples I’ve seen were the variance of R1b-M73 was calculated.

Okay, thanks.  I've never seen any STR diversity info on M73 before.  I know there wasn't a lot haplotypes, but did it point to any specific geographic of high diversity?


... Why might we be interested in the intersection between R1b1a2(M269)'s and R1b1a1(M73)'s territories?
We might consider that their overlapping territory might be a good place to look for their common father, R1b1a(P297)
.

Such scenario assumes that all R1b1a(P297) was confined to a single region, and that mutations M269 and M73 arose in that same region, it is equally likely that R1b1a(P297) started expanding, and while expanding the M269 mutation arose, and became successful amongst the P297 pool, then at a later or earlier time you had a different expansion where the M73 mutation arose, or even the R1b-V88. So, an intersection might not really give you any details, for all you know that region simply absorbed both M269 and M73, and has nothing to do with P297.

We do not have to assume that M269 and M73 have a common ancestor, who was a single person, who could only be in one general location. It just is.

It's true there is no guarantee that an intersection of the two sons' territorities will locate their father. I would say that is particularly of concern where you have two territories that are sprawling and scattered distributions. In the case of M269, or at least the L11 lineage, the distribution gets pretty dense.  In context of other disciplines we can rule out some of the intersection alternatives, as in, let's say the US (at least hypothetically.)  

I just think each of the points of intersection should evaluated as higher than likely possibilities of origin.  I don't think the converse is true. This is what diversity tracking is all about, just we are talking about SNPs rather than STRs in this discussion.

The alternative is what?  Where do you propose the P297 MRCA for M269 and M73 lived and by what means did M269 and M73 spread in their different directions?

Do you think R1b-L21, R1b-Z196 and R1b-U152 all arose in the same area, or in an area that was relatively close?  

I think this topic fits better on Rocca's R-L151 from the west topic.  I'll copy this over there and answer.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:26:31 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2012, 07:46:53 PM »

Okay, thanks.  I've never seen any STR diversity info on M73 before.  I know there wasn't a lot haplotypes, but did it point to any specific geographic of high diversity?

I don’t know, they only gave a pooled results, so I have no idea of  the variance by regions.

We do not have to assume that M269 and M73 have a common ancestor, who was a single person, who could only be in one general location. It just is.

But that says nothing about the location where either M269 or M73 originated. Again, your assumptions conceive of all P297 holed up somewhere, and M269 and M73 arising from there, that is just one amongst many possibilities, and it doesn’t carry any more weight than the others.

It's true there is no guarantee that an intersection of the two sons' territorities will locate their father. I would say that is particularly of concern where you have two territories that are sprawling and scattered distributions. In the case of M269, or at least the L11 lineage, the distribution gets pretty dense.  In context of other disciplines we can rule out some of the intersection alternatives, as in, let's say the US (at least hypothetically.) 

M269 and M73 do not descend from the same father, they share a common ancestor, not a common father, which is different. You are implying that M73 and M269 descend from the same P297 guy, and they do descend from the first P297 guy, the first one to have the mutation P297, but they might not be siblings, for all we know, M269 descends from a P297 guy living in Europe/Caucasus/Anatolia, whereas M73 descend from another P297 guy living in Central Asia, so there you go, they don’t have to be in the same region. 



I just think each of the points of intersection should evaluated as higher than likely possibilities of origin.  I don't think the converse is true. This is what diversity tracking is all about, just we are talking about SNPs rather than STRs in this discussion.
The alternative is what?  Where do you propose the P297 MRCA for M269 and M73 lived and by what means did M269 and M73 spread in their different directions?

I don’t know, there isn’t much out there about M73, but if I had to take a guess about the origin of R-M207, I would go with Spencer Wells and say Central Asia, probably around Kazakhstan. 

« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 07:47:35 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2012, 11:51:12 AM »

Okay, thanks.  I've never seen any STR diversity info on M73 before.  I know there wasn't a lot haplotypes, but did it point to any specific geographic of high diversity?

I don’t know, they only gave a pooled results, so I have no idea of  the variance by regions.

We do not have to assume that M269 and M73 have a common ancestor, who was a single person, who could only be in one general location. It just is.

But that says nothing about the location where either M269 or M73 originated. Again, your assumptions conceive of all P297 holed up somewhere, and M269 and M73 arising from there, that is just one amongst many possibilities, and it doesn’t carry any more weight than the others.

It's true there is no guarantee that an intersection of the two sons' territorities will locate their father. I would say that is particularly of concern where you have two territories that are sprawling and scattered distributions. In the case of M269, or at least the L11 lineage, the distribution gets pretty dense.  In context of other disciplines we can rule out some of the intersection alternatives, as in, let's say the US (at least hypothetically.) 

M269 and M73 do not descend from the same father, they share a common ancestor, not a common father, which is different. You are implying that M73 and M269 descend from the same P297 guy, and they do descend from the first P297 guy, the first one to have the mutation P297, but they might not be siblings, for all we know, M269 descends from a P297 guy living in Europe/Caucasus/Anatolia, whereas M73 descend from another P297 guy living in Central Asia, so there you go, they don’t have to be in the same region. 



I just think each of the points of intersection should evaluated as higher than likely possibilities of origin.  I don't think the converse is true. This is what diversity tracking is all about, just we are talking about SNPs rather than STRs in this discussion.
The alternative is what?  Where do you propose the P297 MRCA for M269 and M73 lived and by what means did M269 and M73 spread in their different directions?

I don’t know, there isn’t much out there about M73, but if I had to take a guess about the origin of R-M207, I would go with Spencer Wells and say Central Asia, probably around Kazakhstan. 



Kazakhstan would fit I guess. Maybe related to the Botai culture? Only issue is it should have made its way further south if it is from Kazakhstan.
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« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2012, 04:20:27 PM »


We do not have to assume that M269 and M73 have a common ancestor, who was a single person, who could only be in one general location. It just is.

But that says nothing about the location where either M269 or M73 originated. Again, your assumptions conceive of all P297 holed up somewhere, and M269 and M73 arising from there, that is just one amongst many possibilities, and it doesn’t carry any more weight than the others.  

I think we are going in circles here. I agree that nothing is conclusive, but for you to imply the location of an ancestor doesn't help us understand more about the possibilities of where his descendants came from doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Please do not take my position of out context. The context is not just where M269 and M73's common ancestor was but the whole phylogenetic trail. V88 matters too, as does R1a, R2 and R*.

Do you you throw away half of the puzzle pieces when you start putting a puzzle together? How does that help?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 04:21:09 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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