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Author Topic: R1b in Ukraine  (Read 2015 times)
Jean M
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« on: June 11, 2012, 05:34:17 AM »

Marta Mielnik-Sikorska, Patrycja Daca, Marcin Woźniak,  Boris A. Malyarchuk, Jarosław Bednarek, Tadeusz Dobosz, Tomasz Grzybowski, Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population, Forensic Science International: Genetics, online 6 June 2012 + supplement is in the Mini-Library.

It is somewhat disappointing in the meager number of SNPs for which the sample was tested: M9, M17, M35, M45, M89, M170, M172, M269, M458, P25, SRY10831.2. The interest of the authors was mainly in checking the dominant R1a1a group for the Slavic marker M458. They did not even check the rest for haplogroup G, with the result that there is a bunch of F* in there, which I imagine are G.

Within R1b they end up with only two flavours: R1b1-P25 (5.19%) and R1b1a2-M269 (2.59%). Obviously we cannot know from this whether the R1b1 is truly R1b1*, as they did not test for  P297, L320 or  M73, M478.
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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 07:38:35 AM »

Should mention that the sample was from Lviv, which is about 100 miles from the Trypillian settlement of Koshylivtsi in Ternopil region.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 11:51:37 AM by Jean M » Logged
ironroad41
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 07:45:27 AM »

I guess without clear definition of the SNPs involved, it is hard to infer anything concrete from this work?

I could imagineer all kinds of scenarios, but what would be the use?

You would hope that academia would be a little more sensitive to the mutational process questions that exist and try to present data in a form which might lead to some form of conclusion?
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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 09:06:21 AM »

The academics in question were interested in the relationship of present-day Ukrainians to other Slavic populations. That was the point of their study. Their results were perfectly reliable for that purpose and achieved their ends.

I doubt if anything reliable about past populations as far back as the Copper Age can be deduced from this data. I am more interested in ancient DNA from the region.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:07:53 AM by Jean M » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 11:28:21 AM »

Eastern European R1b Poland-Ukraine

For some, R1b in Ukraine and by extension the Steppe is a very contentious subject, in light of there being such a heavy presence of R1a.
I can only comment on my own ydna and autosomal results. The 1180 ad [U98VT]Monastery, Pardubice,Czech sample featured on your web page, is a variant  of my paternal line,  200 km, Silesia, Poland.
Kromsdorf is about 200 miles from Pardubice, however we do not know the exact placement of the 2 samples; so we have to conclude that they are related to the Western Branch of R1b, and not Eastern Branch.

On a autosomal level my results cluster with Poles. However to be fair to various theories about the origin of Eastern European R1b it could be from Italian refugium, or Balkan refugium or Ukraine refugium, it could even be Jewish.

However as it stands right now my closest y hits at 67 are from Caucasus and Ukraine. L150+ L584- L51-
The DYS 464 signature also is found in the Ukraine.

MDLP Autosomal Admixture
  
East_European      51.25%
Celto_Germanic            17.56%
Paleo_Mediterranean     13.89%
Volga_Uralic            4.53%
Iberian                   3.37%
Caucasian            3.16%
Balto_Finnic           2.15%
Paleo_Balkanic       1.87%
Uralic_Permic           1.62%
South_Central_Asian      0.61%
Paleo_North_European     0.0%
Altaic_Turkic            0.0%

My 23 list is heavily populated with R1b and R1a, not quite 60/40, as there are a few other branches like I2 and N .
 Ashkenazi @ 1gp+colonial is 0.0%-0.3%/47%-48% not declared. So it could have been Jewish but have been totally washed out. However when compared to Jewish signatures of L584+/L923+ DYS 464 and DYS 426@11 L150+ this looks unlikely.
My 23 list "Top Compare Genes",  top hits are Ukraine.

Familytree 12 marker match.

 Callsen from Northern Germany matches me at 12 markers however when extended there is a large difference at 37, and his terminal is L21

Mueller from Denmark also matches me at 12 however he has not responded to any of my emails, so I have to conclude he is in Callsens grouping L21.

So like everyone else, I eagerly also await any new ancient data.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 11:45:42 AM by acekon » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 11:45:52 AM »

Lviv is not on the steppe. It is in NW Ukraine, well away from the steppe highway. In fact it is so far away that it is not really within the Cucuteni-Tripolye region either, but right at the head of the Dniester.  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 11:46:06 AM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 11:50:06 AM »


The 1180 ad [U98VT] Monastery, Pardubice, Czech sample featured on your web page, is a variant  of my paternal line  


Very interesting. I wish I had a better source for that entry.
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acekon
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 12:05:28 PM »

There are not that many DYS464-14_15_16_19 on my list from the region. EKXJ7   Necsefor   Woloshka, Ukraine. At 67markers there is a difference of 14 but the DYS464 is the same. So yes it is not the steppe.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 01:41:42 PM »

I suppose a lot depends on how right Anthony's more detailed intepretation of the Kurgan movements west is - which groups went more northerly and southerly.  I have for the first time been looking at Anthony's theories about which group led to which branches in relation to the DNA evidence of today.  I do rather fancy L23xL51 was in his proto-Anatolian Suvorovo group.  However, I think I need to read it a couple of times before I have any firm opinions.  

One aspect of the details of Anthony's model I find less easy to swallow is the way he links proto-Celto-Italic with an inland major burst of Yamnaya through Unsatovo.  I feel that Bell Beaker groups had some sort of major maritime expertise and some of what he says about Usatovo and some other elements's maritime knowledge sounds more Bell-beaker friendly to me than his idea of a romp up the Danube past the more coastal groups.  I wouldnt be at all surprised if R1b was strong in the more coastal groups along the Black Sea. Even in modern times maritime knowledge was something carried out by distinct fisher and trading families and people a few miles inland hadnt a clue about it.  The maritime families almost never married out.  Its not just something that a land lubber could just pick up (at least until the recent days of  yaughty people with too much time and money on their hands playing at sailor).  

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 01:53:42 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 01:51:08 PM »

I suppose following up this logic, (and Jean may be able to answer this), were there groups along the coasts of the Black Sea who remained strongly maritime when the inlanders got on with developing the pastoral nomadism?  Clearly fishing was originally imporant all around the Black Sea coast.  I recall one of Jean's collection of recent papers noting signs of tradign and contact across the Black Sea in this period.  Its just a thought that maybe R1b was the maritime element, hence R1a being dominant inland and particularly later to the east.  Kemi-Oba with all its stelae etc anything to do with this?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 01:52:46 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 02:03:16 PM »

lol I suppose I am forgetting the Danube is navigable in one way or other as far as Germany.  Still, it would be a method of outstripping tribes crawling west with large herds of cattle and sheep.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 02:30:22 PM »

Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population
...
Within R1b they end up with only two flavours: R1b1-P25 (5.19%) and R1b1a2-M269 (2.59%).

Umm, still it is important to see that amount of R1b xM269 is double that of M269. This aligns with the Myres data. R1b clearly is a older balanced mix of subclades as you go east.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-M269_Substructure_V2_by_Maju_Myres_data.png

Do the authors show anything related to the amount of potential back-migration there might have been during the historic period?   I guess if there was  lot of back-migration, the proportion of M269 should be higher compared to R1b xM269.

Does anyone know the ratio of R1b xM269 to M269 in the Balkans?  in Hungary?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 02:33:44 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Heber
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 02:44:10 PM »

lol I suppose I am forgetting the Danube is navigable in one way or other as far as Germany.  Still, it would be a method of outstripping tribes crawling west with large herds of cattle and sheep.

I guess Anatole got it right when he described the three routes, Northern, Great Plains, Southern, Balkens - Danube and Meditteranean Iberian routes. The River and Maritine Routes were of course faster and more efficient (except at the Iron Gates) then the slow lumbering overland routes through hostile territory.

" The regions considered are from South Siberia/Central Asia in the east (where R1b haplogroup arose ~16,000 ybp) via the North Kazakhstan, South Ural to the Russian Plain and further west to Europe (the northern route entering Europe around 4500 ybp); from the Russian Plain south to the Caucasus (6000 ybp), Asia Minor (6000 ybp) and the Middle East (6000 - 5500 ybp) to the Balkans in Europe (the southern route, entering Europe around 4500 ybp); along North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea (5500 - 5000 ybp) via Egypt to the Atlantic, north to Iberia (the North African route with arrival to the Pyrenees 4800 ybp). The Arbins (bearers of R1b haplogroup) along their migration route to the Middle East and South Mesopotamia apparently have established the Sumer culture (and the state), moving westward to Europe (5000 - 4500 ybp) carrying mainly the R-M269 subclade and its downstream L23 subclade. This last subclade was nearly absent along the North African route, and/or did not survive the migration to Iberia or evidenced later. At the arrival to Iberia (4800 ybp) the M269 subclade split off M51 and soon thereafter the L11 downstream subclades. These populations became known as the Bell Beakers and moved north, along with the newly arisen subclades of P312 and L21 (which split off within a few centuries after P312). Those subclades and their downstream clades have effectively, without major interruptions, populated Europe (the smooth haplotype trees demonstrate the near non-stop proliferation of R1b haplotypes in Europe)
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 03:42:52 PM »

Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population
...
Within R1b they end up with only two flavours: R1b1-P25 (5.19%) and R1b1a2-M269 (2.59%).

Umm, still it is important to see that amount of R1b xM269 is double that of M269. This aligns with the Myres data. R1b clearly is a older balanced mix of subclades as you go east.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-M269_Substructure_V2_by_Maju_Myres_data.png
....
Does anyone know the ratio of R1b xM269 to M269 in the Balkans?  in Hungary?

I assume that R1b-P25 from the Ukraine study was inclusive of M269 since I don't see an asterisk (or an xM269) after the P25.  If so, then the ratio of
R1b-P25xM269 to M269 is

200.0% (2 to 1) Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population (Edit: from 100 to 200% based on Jean M reply 18)


I went to the Myres R1b study in 2010 and pulled up Table S4 to try to compare
SE Europe with Russia/the Steppes, etc.
Myres has Southeast Europe sample as from Bosnia, Serbia, Herzegovina, Macedonia, Macedonian Roma, Croatia mainland, Kosovo, Romanians, Italy, Italy North, Italy South, Greece, Crete (Balkan and Italian Peninsulas)

There is almost no P25- to be found anywhere so I think we could view this as equivalent comparisons.

R1bxM269 to M269

26.5%  Russia, Belarus, Ukraine (R1b N=401)
0.6% SE Europe xItaly (R1b N=156)
0.4% SE Europe wItaly (R1b N=262)
26.1%  Caucasus (R1b N=88)


SE Europe seems to be dry on R1bxM269.  

Is anyone finding anything different than this?  Am I misinterpreting Myres M343* and M269 all columns?  I think I have it correctly interpreted from Myres.  JeanL, what is the Busby data set showing?  I can't find that other thread on R1b variance related to SE Europe.

I need to go look at the Near East/SW Asia stuff but I assume there is good percentage of R1bxM269 there.  If so, unless I have my numbers above screwed up, why is SE Europe devoid?

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:05:31 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 03:52:20 PM »

Busby did not report on R1bxM269.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 04:00:28 PM »

lol I suppose I am forgetting the Danube is navigable in one way or other as far as Germany.  Still, it would be a method of outstripping tribes crawling west with large herds of cattle and sheep.

I guess Anatole got it right when he described the three routes, Northern, Great Plains, Southern, Balkens - Danube and Meditteranean Iberian routes. The River and Maritine Routes were of course faster and more efficient (except at the Iron Gates) then the slow lumbering overland routes through hostile territory.

" The regions considered are from South Siberia/Central Asia in the east (where R1b haplogroup arose ~16,000 ybp) via the North Kazakhstan, South Ural to the Russian Plain and further west to Europe (the northern route entering Europe around 4500 ybp); from the Russian Plain south to the Caucasus (6000 ybp), Asia Minor (6000 ybp) and the Middle East (6000 - 5500 ybp) to the Balkans in Europe (the southern route, entering Europe around 4500 ybp); along North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea (5500 - 5000 ybp) via Egypt to the Atlantic, north to Iberia (the North African route with arrival to the Pyrenees 4800 ybp). The Arbins (bearers of R1b haplogroup) along their migration route to the Middle East and South Mesopotamia apparently have established the Sumer culture (and the state), moving westward to Europe (5000 - 4500 ybp) carrying mainly the R-M269 subclade and its downstream L23 subclade. This last subclade was nearly absent along the North African route, and/or did not survive the migration to Iberia or evidenced later. At the arrival to Iberia (4800 ybp) the M269 subclade split off M51 and soon thereafter the L11 downstream subclades. These populations became known as the Bell Beakers and moved north, along with the newly arisen subclades of P312 and L21 (which split off within a few centuries after P312). Those subclades and their downstream clades have effectively, without major interruptions, populated Europe (the smooth haplotype trees demonstrate the near non-stop proliferation of R1b haplotypes in Europe)

I actually value Anatole's data and mathematics but I think he lets it all down with the 'founding Sumer' sort of stuff which seems like total madness to me and also his previous talk about the 'Turkish' nature of R1b.  I tend to look at his work and ignore his historical/linguistic interpretations.  I think he is useful in terms of upstream R1b but it all falls apart when he tries to describe its spread beyond SW Asia/the steppes etc. 


I am however fascinated by the brother clade L51xL11 which clearly does follow the same beaker routes as L11.  In fact its even clearer because its a small clade with less noise.  I still feel there is a horrible black hole between the western European stuff from L51 down and L23xL51.  I think I have asked this before but I have forgotten the answer..where is the L23xL51 that most resembles L51* and L11 located?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 04:17:33 PM »

Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population
...
Within R1b they end up with only two flavours: R1b1-P25 (5.19%) and R1b1a2-M269 (2.59%).

Umm, still it is important to see that amount of R1b xM269 is double that of M269. This aligns with the Myres data. R1b clearly is a older balanced mix of subclades as you go east.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-M269_Substructure_V2_by_Maju_Myres_data.png
....
Does anyone know the ratio of R1b xM269 to M269 in the Balkans?  in Hungary?

I assume that R1b-P25 from the Ukraine study was inclusive of M269 since I don't see an asterisk (or an xM269) after the P25.  If so, then the ratio of
R1b-P25xM269 to M269 is

100.0% Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population


I went to the Myres R1b study in 2010 and pulled up Table S4 to try to compare
SE Europe with Russia/the Steppes, etc.
Myres has Southeast Europe sample as from Bosnia, Serbia, Herzegovina, Macedonia, Macedonian Roma, Croatia mainland, Kosovo, Romanians, Italy, Italy North, Italy South, Greece, Crete

There is almost no P25- to be found anywhere so I think we could view this as equivalent comparisons.

R1bxM269 to M269

26.5%  Russia, Belarus, Ukraine (R1b N=401)
0.6% SE Europe xItaly (R1b N=156)
0.4% SE Europe wItaly (R1b N=262)
26.1%  Caucasus (R1b N=88)


SE Europe seems to be dry on R1bxM269.  

Is anyone find anything different than this?  Am I misinterpreting Myres M343* and M269 all columns?  I think I have it correctly interpreted from Myres.  JeanL, what is the Busby data set showing?  I can't find that other thread on R1b variance related to SE Europe.

I need to go look at the Near East/SW Asia stuff but I assume there is good percentage of R1bxM269 there.  If so, unless I have my numbers above screwed up, why is SE Europe devoid?



If your right then that is very interesting.  I suppose the simple answer (assuming your interpretation is right) is that SE Europe is an offshoot fission upsteam subset of R1b while the homeland (no matter how small the actual numbers) is to the east.  As I posted a few times recently, R1b seems to display in its tree a strong suggestion that it was not in a position to do much demographically until fairly late i.e. they were not farming.  I suspect its fringes were caught up now and then in farming but its clear they were peripheral to farming if the R1b tree, branching and the variance dates are correct.  Acceptance of the variance dating as being very close to the mark (and I think its looking that way) means accepting that it was not in Anatolia and SE Europe (other than perhaps some residual non-farming pockets if such existed) until rather late.  All of this supports the general Kurgan model or something akin to it.  If they had been in SE Europe (for example Tripolye etc) the structure and variance would surely be entirely different because those groups and their ancestral groups were involved in farming and had a huge population from early in European farming.  Even if they declined and scattered I would still expect a whole load of clades of substantial size with ealry Neolithic variance to survive in SE Europe and Anatolia and SW Asia had they been involved in farming.  I know this is a heck of a U-turn by me but the ancient DNA, the variance, the structure of R1b etc seems to be all singing from the same hymn sheet now and there is no point in arguing black is white against the evidence.  There could be turn ups yet but you have to make a call based on current evidence.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 04:23:51 PM »

...so I suppose that leaves me wondering what is the proportion of R1b upstream of M269 in Anatolia?  

I am getting the impression that a lot of L23* is involved in the offshoot into SE Europe and Anatolia rather than those areas being the homeland.  It just makes a great deal more sense if R1b was largely bottled up in the non-farming area above M269 and probably above L23.  

edit-The pooled 'Old Soviet' areas listed above is obviously a massive area but I think the presence in a refuge area like the Caucuses is probably telling us that the homeland was not too far away from there, somewhere close to the north coast of the Black Sea.  Dienekes recently suggested that the distribution of haplotypes in the Caucuses and the predominance of G spreading into Europe would place R1b somewhere east of a G zone in the farming core but that obviously is fairly non-commital.  He said 'Rather, it begins to appear that there once was a (roughly speaking) western-eastern-southern distribution of the G/R1/J2 lineages in the territory of West Asia; this would be compatible with both the Neolithic European G dominance, the paucity of G in Central/South Asia, and its NW/S vs. NE Caucasus differentiation'.

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Jean M
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 04:51:52 PM »

I assume that R1b-P25 from the Ukraine study was inclusive of M269 since I don't see an asterisk (or an xM269) after the P25.

The supplement with all the sample details is also in the Mini-Library. You can see that there are 8 R1b1 and 4 R1b1a2. These authors are just not using the formats you expect. The supplement gives the STRs if you want to see what you think of the R1b1.
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 05:06:56 PM »

Busby did not report on R1bxM269.

Yeah, I forgot. That's part of the thing that bothered me on their analysis. They seemed to focus on narrow areas without the total context of the phylogenetic tree.
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 05:24:53 PM »

I assume that R1b-P25 from the Ukraine study was inclusive of M269 since I don't see an asterisk (or an xM269) after the P25.

The supplement with all the sample details is also in the Mini-Library. You can see that there are 8 R1b1 and 4 R1b1a2. These authors are just not using the formats you expect. The supplement gives the STRs if you want to see what you think of the R1b1.

So it is a 2 to 1 ratio (200%) of R1b1 to R1b1xM269.  On a sampling of only 12 I think I'd trust the Myres numbers for a broader area:

R1bxM269 to M269

26.5%  Russia, Belarus, Ukraine (R1b N=401)
0.6% SE Europe xItaly (R1b N=156)
0.4% SE Europe wItaly (R1b N=262)
26.1%  Caucasus (R1b N=88)


And here is SW Asia:

32.5% Near/Middle East, Pakistan (R1b N=155)

What's driving up SW Asia is more V88 and M73 to go with other R1b xM269.

Specifically, "Pakistan North" with a high % of M73 pushes up the R1b non-M269 frequency and then "Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea" where V88 is strongest.

This isn't STR diversity but you could think of these ratios as haplogroup diversity.  I think of it as looking for 2nd and 3rd cousins.

EDIT: M73 not M173 per Alan's reply.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:47:07 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 05:46:13 PM »

I assume that R1b-P25 from the Ukraine study was inclusive of M269 since I don't see an asterisk (or an xM269) after the P25.

The supplement with all the sample details is also in the Mini-Library. You can see that there are 8 R1b1 and 4 R1b1a2. These authors are just not using the formats you expect. The supplement gives the STRs if you want to see what you think of the R1b1.

So it is a 2 to 1 ratio (200%) of R1b1 to R1b1xM269.  On a sampling of only 12 I think I'd trust the Myres numbers for a broader area:

R1bxM269 to M269

26.5%  Russia, Belarus, Ukraine (R1b N=401)
0.6% SE Europe xItaly (R1b N=156)
0.4% SE Europe wItaly (R1b N=262)
26.1%  Caucasus (R1b N=88)


And here is SW Asia:

32.5% Near/Middle East, Pakistan (R1b N=155)

What's driving up SW Asia is more V88 and M173 to go with other R1b xM269.

Specifically, "Pakistan North" with a high % of M173 pushes up the R1b non-M269 frequency and then "Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea" where V88 is strongest.

This isn't STR diversity but you could think of these ratios as haplogroup diversity.  I think of it as looking for 2nd and 3rd cousins.



I take it you mean M73?
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JeanL
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 06:00:48 PM »

Busby did not report on R1bxM269.

Yeah, I forgot. That's part of the thing that bothered me on their analysis. They seemed to focus on narrow areas without the total context of the phylogenetic tree.

Well they wanted to study the diversity of R1b-M269 and its downstream clades in Europe, hence why they excluded anything above R1b-M269, or its cousins R1b-M73, or R1b-V88. I doubt anyone would question the origin of R1b-M73 or R1b-V88 in Asia, I don't think Busby's team does, so hence why they did not include that data.


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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 06:24:51 PM »

From Myres.et.al.2010 Table-S4 R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88)

Germany (n=321) R1b-M343* is 0.31%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/141 or 0.71%

Slovakia (n=276) R1b-M343* is 0.72%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 2/45 or 4.44%

Ukraine (n=504) R1b-M343* is 0.20%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/29 or 3.45%

Tatars (n=119) R1b-M343* is 0.84%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/9 or 11.11%

Romania (n=330) R1b-M343* is 0.30%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 1/40 or 2.50%

Kurds (Kazakhstan) (n=23) R1b-M343* is 13%

They only have 3/23 R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) and 0 R1b-M269+

Turkey (n=611) R1b-M343* is 0.66%

ratio of R1b-M343(xM73,M269,V88) to R1b-M269+ is 4/91 or 4.40%

Everybody else's got 0% R1b-M343(xM73,V88,M269)


*Here is something interesting Jordan(n=222) has 20/222 or 9.0% R1b-V88, in fact their ratio of R1b-V88 to R1b-M269+ all is 20/8 or 250%. Palestine(n=49) has 1 R1b-V88 and 1 R1b-M269+, Iran(n=150) has 1 R1b-V88 and 12 R1b-M269+.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 06:27:52 PM by JeanL » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 06:46:34 PM »

I take it you mean M73?
Yes
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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