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rms2
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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2012, 01:04:46 PM »

I read somewhere (can't remember where right offhand) that the I2a at both Treilles and La Dolmen de la Pierre Fritte is actually I-M26. I wonder if someone can confirm that. That seems significant if it is true.

Wish I could find the source again, but I remember reading that Ken Nordtvedt looked at the Treilles I2a haplotypes and said they were likely to be I-M26. Where the info from the Pierre Fritte dolmen came from I just don't remember.
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2012, 02:00:47 PM »

I read somewhere (can't remember where right offhand) that the I2a at both Treilles and La Dolmen de la Pierre Fritte is actually I-M26. I wonder if someone can confirm that. That seems significant if it is true.

Wish I could find the source again, but I remember reading that Ken Nordtvedt looked at the Treilles I2a haplotypes and said they were likely to be I-M26. Where the info from the Pierre Fritte dolmen came from I just don't remember.

Here is the part about Ken Nordtvedt and the I2a haplotypes from Treilles:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html

Quote from: Dienekes
UPDATE III: A poster at dna-forums as well as Ken Nordtvedt both agree that the I2a haplotypes [from Treilles] belong to I-M26, a haplogroup that is modal in the SW Mediterranean, reaching very high frequencies in Sardinia.

Ancient European Y-DNA (to about 1000 BC)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 02:12:47 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jean M
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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2012, 02:56:17 PM »

Yes I saw that Ken said that and noted it on my Haplogroup I page. It is in line with expectations. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2012, 02:59:17 PM »

We have some Iron Age and Medieval DNA from Poland that has been causing unnecessary excitement. It is only mtDNA. I have added the Iron Age results to my online table, with some help (I don't read Polish.)  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 03:33:00 PM by Jean M » Logged
princenuadha
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« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2012, 11:19:42 PM »

Isn't this the first instance of y-dna from a megalithic tomb?

Yes that is true. The results from Péré tumulus C, Prissé-la-Charrière (4000 BC) were only mtDNA. I have updated my megaliths page.

Have to say though that megalithic tombs are found over most of Eurasia right into the Far East and stone circles are found in part of Africa as well as Europe and the Near East.  Building them was not a culture in itself. They were favoured by Neolithic farming societies. Given the limited spread of I2a1, I think we can guess that only a tiny proportion of such monuments were built by men carrying I2a1.

I really had in mind the megalithic tombs that occur from the western Mediterranean into the British Isles.

One of the things I recall from reading Coons is that he said the bodies in them were mostly of a small, gracile, long-headed, Mediterranean type. In the British Isles, this physical type preceded the physical type represented by the Beaker Folk.

If Coons was right, and the remains connected with the megalithic tombs in western Europe were predominantly of a single, Mediterranean physical type, then one might reasonably conclude they were pretty much the same people. The recent Neolithic y-dna finds, including those from the La Pierre Fritte dolmen, have all been either I2a, G2a, or E1b1b (with the exception of one F*, as I recall). Those haplogroups are much more common in the Mediterranean region than they are in NW Europe. So far, we have the remains of a Neolithic people of a single Mediterranean physical type whose males are testing positive for Mediterranean y haplogroups.

It seems to me a reasonable working hypothesis might be that the Neolithic settlers of western Europe were generally of this Mediterranean type, that the Mediterranean littoral was their ultimate source, and that the males were generally of the same combination of y haplogroups, which did not include R1b.

So, where was R1b (by which I mean probably R-L11)?

Was it yet to arrive in western Europe or just beginning to arrive? Or was it in retreat as a part of the remnant of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, hiding out, waiting for its ultimate resurgence and demographic triumph?

I think the two Beaker men from Kromsdorf give us a clue to the answer.


Coon did differentiate between the Megalithic and the Danubian Neolithic types.  The former, although 'Mediterranean' in a general sense, were taller and even more longer skulled.  This is somewhat like the Corded type except the vault was not as high in the Megalithics.  I don't know how much bearing this has in terms of hg's. Possibly indigenous I2's acquiring gracile admixture from incoming neolithics is my first impression for this larger megalithic mediterranean type.

It stills looks like R1b is a late arrival meaning late neolithic and later.  The studies thus far do not look good for the Mesolithic R1b continuity argument in western Europe.


I'm not sure about your breakdown of y haplogroups but I agree that the farmers became mixed early on.

A new abstract hints or suggests that this may be the case. It claims that many of the k lineages in europe, which showed expansion during the neolithic, had originated in Europe.

The Neolithic trace in mitochondrial haplogroup U8

Quote
The majority of K subclades date to the Late Glacial and are related with the repopulation of Europe from the southern refugia areas. Only a few lineages appear to reflect post glacial, Neolithic or post-Neolithic expansions, mostly occurring within Europe. The major part of the lineages dating to the Neolithic period seems to have an European origin with exception of haplogroup K1a4 and K1a3.

Found http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/06/smbe-2012-abstracts-part-ii.html?m=1

If true, it is probably indicative of the other European haplogroups, too.

Also, its interesting that you point to a difference of the Megaliths and the LBK. Another new abstract claims that neolithics replaced the poluation of central Europe while the same isnt true for most other regions.

Populations genetics of the Neolithic transition

Quote
Moreover, ancient DNA evidence is now emerging that other regions don/t follow the patterns of population discontinuity observed in Central Europe. While the overall results support a model of demic diffusion of farmers from southeastern Europe, or even further East, in to Central Europe, it is very likely that modern populations in most parts of Europe were formed by varying degrees of admixture between incoming farmers and indigenous hunter-gatherers.

Found http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/06/smbe-2012-abstracts-part-i.html?m=1

The downside is that I don't know what data they are working with, in either abstract.


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princenuadha
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« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2012, 11:46:58 PM »

Dienekes has an interesting analysis of recent ancient Y and mtDNA finds and speculates on the spread of the Indo European language...

The absence of the South_Asian component in 'weac2' in all of these individuals is also important. This component captures ancestry (both Caucasoid and Ancestral South Indian) from further east and south, where both G2a/I2a1 are quite rare. As I have noted before, both Europe and South Asia have been affected in late/post-Neolithic times by migrations from West Asia.

It is tempting to associate this population movement with the spread of Indo-European languages...

Dienekes thinks everthing points to a West Asian migration. He wouldnt even admit that the recent adna study from Sweden, makes northern Europeans appear to be mostly mesolithic in decent.

Anyways the main difference between those ancient farmers and modern European is a large increase in autosomal "north european", which he doesn't mention, and minor additions of "caucasus" and "SA". And the latter two aren't even that important in my mind.

FYI, "north european" peaks in modern northeastern Europeans and nearly synchronizes with those neo hunter gatherers.

Quote from: Heber

..These results will be forwarded to the ESRs supervised by Mathias Currat (UNIGE), Mark Thomas (UCL), and Jean-Pierre Bocquet-Appel (CNRS) for incorporation into demographic and genetic models."

Why does having the name jean predispose someone to anthropology?

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Jean M
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« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2012, 05:24:59 AM »


Why does having the name jean predispose someone to anthropology?

I presume that you are attempting comedy.  For those who really don't know - Jean is a common name among French-speakers, being the French version of John. In Britain it is feminine, being the Scottish version of Joan. It is no more surprising to have two Jeans on an international forum than it is to have two Richards and about 10 Michaels.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 06:06:39 AM by Jean M » Logged
princenuadha
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« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2012, 06:02:47 PM »


Why does having the name jean predispose someone to anthropology?

I presume that you are attempting comedy.  

Nope, just looking for a technical explanation.
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Heber
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« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2012, 10:36:23 PM »

A new study, presented at the SMBE  conference in Dublin this week, on Etruscan DNA which might interest Maliclavelli.

Origins and evolution of the Etruscans’ DNA

Silvia Ghirotto 1 , Francesca Tassi 1 , Erica Fumagalli 2,1 , Vincenza Colonna 3,1 , Anna Sandionigi 4 , Martina Lari 4 , Stefania Vai 4 , Emmanuele Petiti 4 , Giorgio Corti 5 , Ermanno Rizzi 5 , Gianluca De Bellis 5 , David Caramelli 4 , Guido Barbujani 1 1 Department of Biology and Evolution, University of Ferrara, Ferrara, Italy, 2 Department of Biotechnologies and BiosciencesUniversity of Milano-Bicocca, Milano, Italy, 3 Institute of Genetics e Biophysics "Adriano Buzzati-Traverso", National Research Council, Napoli, Italy, 4 Department of Evolutionary Biology, University of Firenze, Firenze, Italy, 5 Institute for Biomedical Technologies (ITB), National Research Council (CNR), Milano, Italy

The Etruscan culture is documented in Etruria, Central Italy, from the 7 th to the 1 st century BC. For more than 2,000 years there has been disagreement on the Etruscans’ biological origins, whether local or in Anatolia. Genetic affinities with both Tuscan and Anatolian populations have been reported, but so far all attempts have failed to fit the Etruscans’ and modern populations in the same genealogy. We extracted and typed mitochondrial DNA of 14 individuals buried in two Etruscan necropoleis, analyzing them along with other Etruscan and Medieval samples, and 4,910 contemporary individuals. Comparing ancient and modern diversity with the results of millions of computer simulations, we show that the Etruscans can be considered ancestral, with a high degree of confidence, to the modern inhabitants of two communities, Casentino and Volterra, but not to most contemporary populations dwelling in the former Etruscan homeland. We also estimate that the genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia date back to at least 5,000 years ago, strongly suggesting that the Etruscan culture developed locally, without a significant contribution of recent Anatolian immigrants.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 10:39:54 PM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2012, 10:52:54 PM »

A new study on the Neolithic transition presented at the SMBE conference in Dublin this week.

Populations genetics of the Neolithic transition

Joachim Burger 1 , Mark Thomas 2,3 1  
Johannes Gutenberg University, Institute of Anthropology, D-55128 Mainz, Germany,  2 Research Department of  Genetics, Evolution and Environment, University College London, Wolfson House, 4 Stephenson Way, London NW1  2HE, UK,  3 Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University, Norbyvagen 18D, SE- 752 36 Uppsala, Sweden    
About 11,000 years ago, a change in human lifestyle took place in the territories of present-day western Iran, the Levant  region and south-east Anatolia, which is characterised particularly by four factors: the people founded permanent  settlements with buildings for various functions; plants such as Einkorn and beans were cultivated; goats, sheep, pigs  and cattle were domesticated; a new kind of culture evolved, that became conspicuous with the appearance of a new  material culture including ground stone tools and later, pottery products. The transition from the partly nomadic huntergatherer subsistence strategy to a settled lifestyle based on food production is also known as the “Neolithic Revolution”.  About 8,500 years ago, the Neolithic culture spread to the southeast of Europe and later expanded episodically across  central and northern Europe. The extent to which this movement of a farming culture was accompanied by a movement  of people, as opposed to just a spread of ideas and skills, has been a subject of considerable debate and dispute  over  the last 100 years. Population genetic computer simulations of genetic data from ancient human remains, based on  coalescent theory have shown that the early Neolithic farmers could not have been descended just from the later  hunter-gatherers of central Europe (Bramanti et al. 2009). As the hunter-gatherers had already been settled in Central  Europe since the retreat of the glaciers 20 kya, Neolithic famers must have migrated into this area.  
There is good evidence of cultural contact between hunter-gatherers and early farmers in central Europe. Whether the  exchange of hunting tools also led also to the exchange of men is still not clear, as Y-chromosomal DNA has not yet  been studied systematically in ancient human remains. Moreover, ancient DNA evidence is now emerging that other  regions don/t follow the patterns of population discontinuity observed in Central Europe. While the overall results  support a model of demic diffusion of farmers from southeastern Europe, or even further East, in to Central Europe, it is  very likely that modern populations in most parts of Europe were formed by varying degrees of admixture between  incoming farmers and indigenous hunter-gatherers. Analyses of the appropriate neutral and phenotypically informative  markers using next generation sequencing technologies will provide more information on this in the near future.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 10:57:02 PM by Heber » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2012, 07:03:42 AM »

Saw those Heber. Both seem a shade peculiar.

How did Silvia Ghirotto et al. "estimate that the genetic links between Tuscany and Anatolia date back to at least 5,000 years ago"? Certainly not from ancient DNA, since they just tested Etruscan aDNA. Archaeology and DNA studies of Tuscan cattle breeds suggests that the ancestors of the Etruscans arrived in Italy around 1,200 BC = 3200 years ago.

As for Joachim Burger and Mark Thomas - it's not clear if they are actually offering up new results, or a review of already published data. Wish I'd gone to the conference.


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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2012, 06:37:24 PM »

The BEAN (Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic) project looks very promising. Analyzing ancient DNA from Anatolia and The Balkens, from Hunter Gatherers and First Farmers  using Next Generation Sequencing (NGS), should provide lots of Autosomal, Y and mtDNA data for analysis. These could be two key sites in the evolution of M269 to L21.

"The common focus of the project partners centers around questions associated with the origin of first farmer settlements, which were established some 8,000 years ago in West Anatolia and the Balkans. Where did they come from? Were they migrants from the Middle East? Are they our ancestors?"

"As of July 2012, doctoral candidate Zuzana Fajkošová, who completed her undergraduate studies at Masaryk University in Brno and at Charles University in Prague in the Czech Republic, will be the first of two BEAN researchers to start work at JGU's Institute of Anthropology and in the new palaeogenetic laboratory, which is currently in the final stages of construction on the edges of the university's Botanic Garden. She will analyze DNA from the bones of the last hunter-gatherers and the first settled farmers in the region between West Anatolia and the Balkans using the new cutting-edge technology of Next Generation Sequencing (NGS). Together with her colleagues in Dublin, London, and Geneva, she will use the genomic data to compile a model for the settlement of Europe. "

http://dienekes.blogspot.ie/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&max-results=50

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« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2012, 11:31:11 PM »

Wasn't there supposed to be a Teutonic Knight burial being excavated in Germany/Poland a few years back? Anyone know if the results are forthcoming?
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rms2
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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2012, 08:26:24 AM »

The BEAN (Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic) project looks very promising. Analyzing ancient DNA from Anatolia and The Balkens, from Hunter Gatherers and First Farmers  using Next Generation Sequencing (NGS), should provide lots of Autosomal, Y and mtDNA data for analysis. These could be two key sites in the evolution of M269 to L21.

"The common focus of the project partners centers around questions associated with the origin of first farmer settlements, which were established some 8,000 years ago in West Anatolia and the Balkans. Where did they come from? Were they migrants from the Middle East? Are they our ancestors?"

"As of July 2012, doctoral candidate Zuzana Fajkošová, who completed her undergraduate studies at Masaryk University in Brno and at Charles University in Prague in the Czech Republic, will be the first of two BEAN researchers to start work at JGU's Institute of Anthropology and in the new palaeogenetic laboratory, which is currently in the final stages of construction on the edges of the university's Botanic Garden. She will analyze DNA from the bones of the last hunter-gatherers and the first settled farmers in the region between West Anatolia and the Balkans using the new cutting-edge technology of Next Generation Sequencing (NGS). Together with her colleagues in Dublin, London, and Geneva, she will use the genomic data to compile a model for the settlement of Europe. "

http://dienekes.blogspot.ie/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&max-results=50



I saw that over at Dienekes' blog, and BEAN was mentioned by, I believe, JeanL earlier in this thread. It could potentially provide a lot of answers, if they get things right.
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Jean M
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« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2012, 04:49:13 PM »

Dienekes has just broken another story: Mesolithic Iberians (La Braña-Arintero) not ancestors of modern ones


From the press release:

    A team of scientists, led by researcher Carles Lalueza-Fox from CSIC (Spanish National Research Council), has recovered - for the first time in history - part of the genome of two individuals living in the Mesolithic Period, 7000 years ago. Remains have been found at La Braña-Arintero site, located at Valdelugueros (León), Spain. The study results, published in the Current Biology magazine, indicate that current Iberian populations don't come from these groups genetically.

[It is in the Mini-Library now, for those who have access.]
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« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2012, 05:37:45 PM »

Bones of 200 slaughtered soldiers from the time of Christ are so well preserved in peat bog that their DNA can be studied.
This should yield some good DNA from a large number of samples.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2168677/Bones-200-slaughtered-soldiers-time-Christ-preserved-peat-bog-DNA-studied.html
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2012, 03:43:30 AM »

Bones of 200 slaughtered soldiers from the time of Christ are so well preserved in peat bog that their DNA can be studied.
This should yield some good DNA from a large number of samples.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2168677/Bones-200-slaughtered-soldiers-time-Christ-preserved-peat-bog-DNA-studied.html


That's an incredible find! Hopefully some good information will come out of it.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2012, 07:29:24 AM »

Bones of 200 slaughtered soldiers from the time of Christ are so well preserved in peat bog that their DNA can be studied.
This should yield some good DNA from a large number of samples.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2168677/Bones-200-slaughtered-soldiers-time-Christ-preserved-peat-bog-DNA-studied.html


That is pretty incredible but I understand peat bogs and DNA dont mix well at all.
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« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2012, 08:08:01 AM »

I have a list of academic projects related to migration at http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migrationprojects.shtml

I have been particularly keen to list those involving ancient DNA. You will notice right at the top that AMIS  is engaged in extracting ancient DNA for several specific projects. By 2014 it hopes to have sequenced the complete mitochondrial genome and Y chromosome of a large sample of Holocene individuals.

This one is very interesting;

Archaeogenetics at Huddersfield University: A new laboratory is being built for the analysis of ancient DNA under Professor Martin Richards, who aims to establish the history of the dispersal of human populations around the world.

Hopefully they'll test the The Amesbury Archer and we'll know what his haplotype is!
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« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2012, 08:42:46 AM »

About a year ago Kristina Killgrove from Vanderbilt successfully used the Web to amass funding to study a working class graveyard in Rome (ancient Rome, pre-Christian).  I think there wasn't enough money in it to test Y-DNA -- which tends to cost about 100x what mtDNA testing costs (and then they waste the effort of extraction and PCR-based sample cloning, by testing ten or fifteen markers).  But perhaps her samples can be tested in more than one way, over time.

There are rumors that next-generation testing will solve some of our woes in this area.  As far as I know, these rumors emanate from a couple of big labs that have invested in NextGen technology.  I haven't seen much evidence that it will be any more affordable (for poor working academics), but we'll see.
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« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2012, 10:00:18 AM »

Wasn't there a mummy dug up in Scotland recently that was ocmposed of 5 differentindividuals?
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« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2012, 02:33:59 PM »

Ummm, jackpot?

http://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/179228

I saw it linked at dienekes site.
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« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2012, 07:10:55 PM »

Golly! Am I glad this came out while I can still fix what I say about mtDNA U2e. 
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« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2012, 10:03:14 PM »

Ummm, jackpot?

http://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/179228

I saw it linked at dienekes site.

Just read the article. A bunch of I1 and at least 1, likely 2 R1b. Strangely, 0 R1a, and 0 I2a2 considering the proximity to Balkans and eastern Europe. (as per Dienekes predictions)

The article concluded they were not Germanic immigrants/settlers to the region. However, it is possible that some of their forebears had already settled in the region a few generations earlier...

In any event, I would like to know which male sample was buried with the Roman brooch. I wasn't able to determine this from the text.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 10:08:33 PM by A_Wode » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2012, 08:51:30 AM »

The two mtDNA C at Yasinovatka in the study, Prehistoric populations of Ukraine:
Migration at the later Mesolithic to Neolithic transition
, appear to be two of the three mentioned in another study, Mitochondrial haplogroup C in ancient mitochondrial DNA from Ukraine extends the presence of East Eurasian genetic lineages in Neolithic Central and Eastern Europe.

In the former, the two mtDNA C are referred to as YAS45 and YAS34 and represent a male 20-25 years old and an infant, respectively. In the latter, they are referred to as YA45 and YA34 (apparently "YAS" and "YA" are short for Yasinovatka) and are also attached to a male, 20-25, and an infant, respectively.

The additional mtDNA C in the latter study is labeled Ni58 and is a male, 35-55. I'm not sure what "Ni" stands for, since I am drawing what I know of the latter study from a table of mtDNA results posted at Dienekes' blog.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/06/ancient-mtdna-from-neolithic-ukraine.html

Mitochondrial haplogroup C in ancient mitochondrial DNA from Ukraine extends the presence of East Eurasian genetic lineages in Neolithic Central and Eastern Europe is one of those pay-to-read studies, but I noticed that Inna Potekhina and Alexey Nikitin took part in both studies.

I guess what is interesting is that mtDNA C was found at two separate Neolithic sites in the Dnieper Basin.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 08:55:29 AM by rms2 » Logged

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