Also R-M335 from the Italian Refugium?

[Maliclavelli]

The first R-M335 was found by Cinnioglu in 2004 in Turkey and seemed to demonstrate the West Asian origin of it and of the whole R haplogroup.
In the R1b1 spreadsheet of Vizachero c/o FTDNA there are 3 Germans. A check of YHRD demonstrates a huge presence of R-M335 in Central Europe, above all Germany, but also Czech Republik, Sweden, etc. But there is also a sample from Verona (Italy). Is the man of Verona from Central Europe or are all the others from the Italian Refugium?
R-M335 is closely linked to R1b1 (V88-/L389+) which generated R1b1b1 and R1b1b2. We don’t know if the mutation M335 has happened before or after this paragroup has generated the mutations for these most important subclades, but its huge presence in Europe is for an European origin of R1b1b2 and probably also of R1b1b1.

[Maliclavelli]

Noone of the R1b1c listed at Ysearch is R-M335 except those three I put there from SMGF:

3QD9V: Scheid (Germany)
7WUUQ Silfverling (Sweden)
PB67D Hein (Germany)

Many others are on Ysearch but not signed as R1b1c but R1b1.

[Maliclavelli]

The haplotype: 15, 14-31, 25, 10, 13, 13, 13-14 (two from Germany and 1 from Slovenia on YHRD: 1 from Papua we don’t know what can be) has a variant with DYS389II=30 in  Ysearch 45NZ5 (Hartley) from the British Isles. Hartley is very different from the German individuals, demonstrating a long separation and that R-M335 is deep rooted in Europe, what cannot be said of the Turkish R-M335 in Cinnioglu 2004.

[Maliclavelli]

It would be interesting to SNP test also Leland (KZDP4), an haplotype very different from the others but with many R-M335 values.

[Maliclavelli]

It would be interesting to SNP test also Leland (KZDP4), an haplotype very different from the others but with many R-M335 values.

Leland, like Rogers (EAKVT), is R1a1 with DYS392=13, the most ancient R1a I found also in the Italian refugium (see ancient Rhaetia). It has some values close to R-M335+, but differs in other ones.

[Maliclavelli]

the most ancient R1a I found also in the Italian refugium (see ancient Rhaetia)

Amongst the four persons found in the world who are R1a* (M420+, SRY10831.2-) one is from Benevento, Italy, one of the most conservative regions of the Italian Apennine (Ysearch: ID: D47SE).

[Maliclavelli]

The British Isles got plenty o' R1a*:

Ysearch: ID XJ6E2 (Grace)

and who does  say that N9VG5 (Hay/Hayes), JTDBS (Lunt) etc. are R1b1*? They are all R1a* (M420), the most ancient, not found so far in Asia, which should be the origin.

[Maliclavelli]

At last probably an Italian R-M335+. Ysearch ZASFF, signed Martin from USA, was probably named Martinucci, then Italian.

[Maliclavelli]

From these data from YHRD perhaps we can understand where was the origin of R-M335+ (then of R1b1 and the subclades R1b1b1 and R1b1b2). But these values are often borderline with R1a and only some other values are able to discriminate.

1 16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 11 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 11 11 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 455 Central Bohemia, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 153 Verona, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 743 Chemnitz, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

16 14 30 24 10 13 13 13,14 2 >>
15 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 1 >>
16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,15 1 >>
17 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 0 >>

1 16 14 30 24 10 13 13 13,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 16 14 30 24 10 13 13 13,14 11 11 14 21 14 15 23 11 >>
1 of 220 North Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 51 Bologna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 246 Lublin, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe

1 16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,15 11 11 14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 216 Southern Moravia, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe


16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 3 >> 16 13 29 24 10 13 13 13,14 1 >> 16 14 30 24 10 13 14 13,14 1 >> 15 14 30 24 10 13 13 13,14 0 >>

15 14 31 25 10 13 13 13,14 5 >> 16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 3 >> 14 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 2 >> 15 13 30 24 10 13 13 13,14 1 >> 15 14 31 23 10 13 13 13,14 1 >> 15 14 31 24 10 13 13 12,14 1 >> 15 14 31 24 10 13 13 14,14 1 >> 15 15 32 24 10 13 13 13,14 0 >>

16 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,14 3 >> 16 13 30 24 10 13 13 13,15 1 >> 16 14 31 24 10 13 13 14,15 1 >> 15 14 31 24 10 13 13 13,15 0 >>

[alan trowel hands.]

Surely you mean the subalpine refugium? :0)

[Maliclavelli]

Surely you mean the subalpine refugium? :0)

Probably it is a question of time. If the expansion happened between Younger Dryas and early Neolithic, Italy gets an advantage. If it happened later, we may think also to an expansion from Central Europe. But I wouldn't search elsewhere.

[Maliclavelli]

An R-M335 has been signalled amongst the Huis of the Yunnan (China): 1 out of 10 tested. It would be interesting to know more of it.

[Maliclavelli]

The Yunnan Hui R-M335 is in Zhong et al., Extended Y-chromosome investigation suggests post-Glacial migrations of modern humans into East Asia via the northern route [http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org]. The supplements give seven markers: 5 are the same of the R-M335 found in Turkey and Europe:
DYS388=12
DYS391=10
DYS392=13
DYS393=13
DYS389=14-31

The two markers changed are: DYS19 and DYS390.
This is the combination:

HUI= 16-24
Turk (Cinnioglu)= 15-25

The Europeans:
Hein (PB67D), Silfverling (7WUUQ)= 15-24
Scheid (3QD9V), Dubay (T7TP3)= 16-24
Hatley? (ACDPS), Martin [Martinucci] (ZASFF)= 16-25
Graf (3XEX8), Burger (5ENDS)= 17-24

May I say that Europe has a more variance, that R-M335 was born here, that it descends from R1b1*/YCAII=18-23 and that Europe gets the path of this haplogroup?

[Maliclavelli]

A_Wode writes: “You're cherry picking a handful of British Americans (among dozens of Near-Easterners) when the individuals themselves sometimes don't even have solid family trees. Even then we can only trace back a few hundred years most of the time, and certainly it's impossible to say where people originated 500+ years back in most places of Europe.
In terms of the M335 "Germans", and the R1b1* Spaniards. Three guesses what population of expelled people lived in those countries?
The war is far from lost, in fact the evidence grows stronger as we have collected more data that R1b1*, and R1b1c most likely did not originate in Europe”.

I have written a lot about R-M335 and other haplogroups. I hope that before speaking you have read.

[A_Wode]

I would be more confident if these were SNP confirmed M335 results. As far as I can see, there are only 3 in the FTDNA database - all from Germany. Examining the STR is not terribly reliable for such a tiny group. Until all the more common subclades have been ruled out (ie: xM269 in every sample), we must assume they are something else since YSearch is not a reliable subclade predictor....

[Maliclavelli]

I would be more confident if these were SNP confirmed M335 results. As far as I can see, there are only 3 in the FTDNA database - all from Germany. Examining the STR is not terribly reliable for such a tiny group. Until all the more common subclades have been ruled out (ie: xM269 in every sample), we must assume they are something else since YSearch is not a reliable subclade predictor....

Yes, of course. Unfortunately I haven’t at my disposal FTDNA or the FTDNA clones that Behar et al. have used for their reassessment of mtDNA, nor labs and funds they have. I have tested at my expense my relatives, I invite someone to test himself (and many times I am satisfied: the last LoPiccolo, Malagodi etc.). Otherwise I must use my genius, and sincerely I think not to be wrong.