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Author Topic: Also HV0a from the Italian Refugium  (Read 968 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: June 02, 2012, 09:06:46 AM »

A friend of mine, whose paternal line is from Sicily, has been tested by 23andMe like R-L49 (L23) and I invited him to test his STRs c/o FTDNA and it seems he will do.
His maternal line is from Romagna, and he is HV0a, with the mutations 16298C, 15904C, but also 295T.
The unique HV0a in the Ian Logan spreadsheet is Achilli AY738945 (Italy). The recent Behar 2012b has 4 samples: beyond Achilli 2004 and 2007, Fraumene 2006 : DQ523620 from Sardinia, Behar 2012b : JQ704441 from Czech Republic and Behar 2012b : JQ704188 from Ireland.
My Italian friend, even though tested only from 23andMe, has 295T like the Irish one.
Could I think that also HV0a comes from the Italian Refugium?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 09:51:30 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Isidro
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2012, 10:11:12 AM »

A friend of mine, whose paternal line is from Sicily, has been tested by 23andMe like R-L49 (L23) and I invited him to test his STRs c/o FTDNA and it seems he will do.
His maternal line is from Romagna, and he is HV0a, with the mutations 16298C, 15904C, but also 295T.
The unique HV0a in the Ian Logan spreadsheet is Achilli AY738945 (Italy). The recent Behar 2012b has 4 samples: beyond Achilli 2004 and 2007, Fraumene 2006 : DQ523620 from Sardinia, Behar 2012b : JQ704441 from Czech Republic and Behar 2012b : JQ704188 from Ireland.
My Italian friend, even though tested only from 23andMe, has 295T like the Irish one.
Could I think that also HV0a comes from the Italian Refugium?


I am HV0, (back in the day it used to be called Pre-V).

   Haplogroup - HV

    HVR1 differences from CRS
        16298C
    HVR2 differences from CRS
        72C
        195C
        263G
        315.1C
As you can see the bold mutations are the defining HV0 asignment.

If I understand correctly you say the Romagna HV0a has an extra mutation 15904C (is that what gives it the a at HV0a?.

At any rate, it does seem my HV0 is ancestral to your result from Romagna.
Further search is showing me that 15904C is a defining mutation for Haplogroup V along with 4580.

Is there a lot of V in the Italian Peninsula?.I know there is in Spain and Ireland.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 10:27:32 AM by Isidro » Logged

Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2012, 12:09:18 PM »

Isidro, you are right: 15904T defines HV0a, and HV0 is the ancestor of HV0a.
The Ian Logan spreadsheet has two HV0: EF660968 from Italy and HM756457 from Spain. Have you done an FGS? If not, I think you should.
Anyway I and my relatives match many HV0 in 23andme. If I could get their FGS!

If you come from Valencia region, I remember you that that region was peopled by Italian agriculturalists 7500 years ago by sea. If we could compare many FGS from Italy and from Spain, we could understand where they come from.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 12:14:37 PM »

And we match 2 HV0 but 7 HV, beyond 2 HV1a1. And the matches come from overall in Italy, being I Tuscan, but my wife from Sicily and my cousin from a Venetian father.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 12:18:02 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2012, 12:36:18 PM »

But having 195C, a back mutation, you aren’t probably HV0 but some subclade from HV0c to HV0d. I’d exclude HV0b(198T), HV0e (16311C) and HV0f (72T).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 12:49:00 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2012, 12:46:55 PM »

The only HV0 remained are these: the first two are clones from FTDNA (country not specified) but the third is from Spain.


Sample Id: JQ705544
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: C150T; C186T; T239C; G3531A; G3745A; T5493C; G13980A; T16249C;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:
 
SAMPLE ID: JQ705565
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: A1842G; C5366T; T16172C; T16368C;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:

SAMPLE ID: JQ705599
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: T8473C; G11518A;
Topologically Missing:
Country: Spain
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Isidro
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2012, 02:37:40 PM »

Isidro, you are right: 15904T defines HV0a, and HV0 is the ancestor of HV0a.
The Ian Logan spreadsheet has two HV0: EF660968 from Italy and HM756457 from Spain. Have you done an FGS? If not, I think you should.
Anyway I and my relatives match many HV0 in 23andme. If I could get their FGS!

If you come from Valencia region, I remember you that that region was peopled by Italian agriculturalists 7500 years ago by sea. If we could compare many FGS from Italy and from Spain, we could understand where they come from.

I only have tested HVr1&2. FGS is not in my near plans...prices are coming down so eventually I will.
I know there is a lot of HV in Italy with eastern signatures but HV0 I am not sure and V even less (I mean in Italy). Eupedia has it at around 4% but includes both HV and V.

My MTdna is from the Pyrenees not Valencia but we are not talking great distances.

The earliest Neolithic in Iberia is 6000BC, coming from the Mediterranean East, Italy is right before the Western Med so it is quite possible it set foot on Italy, in addition to all the Islands in the Med and enclaves on mainland Africa and Europe.

Also you have the old Crown of Aragon (included Valencia) going the other way, I am quite sure you know that already.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Isidro
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2012, 02:44:55 PM »

But having 195C, a back mutation, you aren’t probably HV0 but some subclade from HV0c to HV0d. I’d exclude HV0b(198T), HV0e (16311C) and HV0f (72T).

I think 195c is not a back mutation, I have 20 HVR1&2  exact matches +1 or -1 mutation, roughly 10 V's and 10 HV's and all the HV's have 195C and all V's do not have it. so I don't know the true significance of 195C but it seems ancestral to HV and not to V.

Are you sure 15904T defines HV0a?...for what I have read it actually makes it full fledged V.
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Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2012, 03:25:53 PM »

Are you sure 15904T defines HV0a?...for what I have read it actually makes it full fledged V.
Look at the last Phylotree and the last paper of Behar et al. (Behar 2012b).
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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