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intrestedinhistory
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« on: May 24, 2012, 09:58:46 PM »

What were they like autosomally and in terms of ydna/mtdna compositon? And what did they speak?

I know people have tried to connect the Botai culture to R1b and Turkic speakers. Is there any evidence for either or even evidence that they were East Eurasians? As far as I know Kazakhstan was first home to Neolithic Iranian farmers (this would explain the G1 found in Kazakhstan) followed by proto Tocharians and followed by proto Indo- Iranian nomads.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 10:23:27 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2012, 06:20:12 AM »

We have no ancient DNA from the Botai Culture and no evidence for the language these hunters spoke. It is unlikely to be Turkic, which spread west much later. They were local forest/steppe hunters who acquired domesticated horses at around the time that the ancestors of the Tocharians passed through their territory, so they probably gained horses that way.

Hunters moved northwards in the Mesolithic, as the ice-sheets gradually melted. There was another Mesolithic culture around the Aral Sea: Kelteminar culture, thought to be related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture, which is thought to be Uralic-speaking. So there were at least two type of foragers in Kazakhstan before farmers.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 06:32:47 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 07:59:53 AM »

We have no ancient DNA from the Botai Culture and no evidence for the language these hunters spoke. It is unlikely to be Turkic, which spread west much later. They were local forest/steppe hunters who acquired domesticated horses at around the time that the ancestors of the Tocharians passed through their territory, so they probably gained horses that way.

Hunters moved northwards in the Mesolithic, as the ice-sheets gradually melted. There was another Mesolithic culture around the Aral Sea: Kelteminar culture, thought to be related to the Pit–Comb Ware culture, which is thought to be Uralic-speaking. So there were at least two type of foragers in Kazakhstan before farmers.

This would lead me to believe that the Botai culture people were Near Eastern farmers as Central Asia's neolithic comes from Northern Iran.

Regarding the Kelteminar Culture is it generally accepted that it was Uralic speaking. I would be surprised if Uralic languages were spoken as far south as Turkmenistan. What ydna and mtdna did they leae behind? We know where the R1a and U4/U5 comes from and that is some combination of Indo-Iranians and Tocharians. And there is almost no N1c or I in central asia either and the I could be from tripoyle or recent admixture anyways. Maybe this is where the Bashkhir and Central Asian M269 comes into play?
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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2012, 08:16:07 AM »

This would lead me to believe that the Botai culture people were Near Eastern farmers as Central Asia's neolithic comes from Northern Iran.

No. The Botai people were not farmers. They did not come from Northern Iran. They were, as I said, local forest/steppe hunter-gatherers of Northern Kazakhstan who had adopted the domesticated horse for riding and milking. They knew nothing about agriculture. You could try reading one of the excellent websites on the Botai by academics, or a few scholarly papers on them.  

From David Anthony and Dorcas Brown, Harnessing Horsepower.

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The Botai culture in northern Kazakhstan is named after the site of Botai, where 99% of 300,000 recovered animal bones were from horses. Botai was a culture of foragers that rode horses to hunt horses, a peculiar adaptation found only here and only between about 3600-3000 BCE.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 08:23:52 AM by Jean M » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2012, 08:28:29 AM »

This would lead me to believe that the Botai culture people were Near Eastern farmers as Central Asia's neolithic comes from Northern Iran.

No. The Botai people were not farmers. They did not come from Northern Iran. They were, as I said, local forest/steppe hunter-gatherers of Northern Kazakhstan who had adopted the domesticated horse for riding and milking. They knew nothing about agriculture. You could try reading one of the excellent websites on the Botai by academics, or a few scholarly papers on them.  

From David Anthony and Dorcas Brown, Harnessing Horsepower.

Quote
The Botai culture in northern Kazakhstan is named after the site of Botai, where 99% of 300,000 recovered animal bones were from horses. Botai was a culture of foragers that rode horses to hunt horses, a peculiar adaptation found only here and only between about 3600-3000 BCE.

I thought all of Central Asia was subject to a North Iranian neolithic. But either way which other people would have been present? Every lineage in the area could be traced to Indo-Iranians, Turks and West Asian farmers/traders. What ydna did they carry/ Something like R1b-M269, non Z93+ clades of R1a, N1c or I would be expected if they were farmers. Yet I don't think that really exists. Unless they were a small culture whose lineages died out.
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Jean M
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 08:29:55 AM »

The terrain of Kazakhstan is not best suited to crop farming. That was only possible at the southern edge of the steppe, around the oases and south of the Aral Sea, by the use of irrigation farming. The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex did not extend into Kazakhstan, so I am not sure which sites you are thinking of in Kazakhstan.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2012, 09:01:03 AM »

The terrain of Kazakhstan is not best suited to crop farming. That was only possible at the southern edge of the steppe, around the oases and south of the Aral Sea, by the use of irrigation farming. The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex did not extend into Kazakhstan, so I am not sure which sites you are thinking of in Kazakhstan.

The BMAC was just one culture/settlement of these farmers. The West Asian neolithic occurred in more places such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan. And I am sure it it extended at least as far north as Uzbekistan.

Also how would you explain the decent amounts of ydna G1 in Kazakhstan? Or the J2?  Or the R2? Or the R2 and L in Uzbeks?

And what lineages(ydna and mtdna) did these hunters-fishers-gathers carry of the Keltiminar and Botai cultures carry? I can't think of anything that isn't west asian, indo-iranian or turko-mongol.

Here is central Asian ydna:  http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=14134

Maybe: I-M170 or N1c-M46? mtdna U4(could aslo be indo-iranian though )?
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A_Wode
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2012, 12:12:31 PM »

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Turkic/default.aspx?section=yresults

R1a1 is well represented among Turkic tribes. Of course, the only tribe where R1b has a slim edge over others is among the Anatolian grouping, and nearly absent from the others. However, this should be no surprise since R1b is also a majority among the Greek speaking regions of Anatolia.

I can't find the FTDNA project now (it's not the Turkic world), but R1b1a1 was also common among the Kanly tribe who happened to use 4-wheeled carts in ancient history.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 12:20:57 PM by A_Wode » Logged
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 01:31:42 PM »

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Turkic/default.aspx?section=yresults

R1a1 is well represented among Turkic tribes. Of course, the only tribe where R1b has a slim edge over others is among the Anatolian grouping, and nearly absent from the others. However, this should be no surprise since R1b is also a majority among the Greek speaking regions of Anatolia.

I can't find the FTDNA project now (it's not the Turkic world), but R1b1a1 was also common among the Kanly tribe who happened to use 4-wheeled carts in ancient history.

What do you think of the N in Central Asians and South Asians? Finno-Uralic admixture with Indo-Iranians or proto Turks who absorbed N from East Asians or Uralic speakers and brought this down to Central and South Asia.
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