World Families Forums - G1 Kazhak - Argyn and Madyar

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 21, 2014, 07:50:38 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  G and Subclades
| | |-+  G1 Kazhak - Argyn and Madyar
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: G1 Kazhak - Argyn and Madyar  (Read 5139 times)
palamede
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« on: May 30, 2012, 04:32:44 PM »

Here is a beautiful map of Khazakhstan with Zhugs  (Federarion of tribes), tribes and clans.

Argyns are a big tribe has.  "It is found that 80 to 90% of Argyns belong to haplogroup G1a_P20". The origin of Argyn tribe doesn't seem well-known and the homogeneity of its clans is very surprising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyns said
"Argyn (Kazakh: Арғын) tribe is one of the main constituents of the Kazakh people, of turkic descent, and a main component in the Middle jüz sub-confederation in Kazakhstan, which historically consisted of three tribal conglomerations of Great jüz, Middle jüz, and Little jüz. It is found that 80 to 90% of Argyns belong to haplogroup G1[[1]]
Present Argyns in the Kazakh Middle jüz are the former Basmals, and these names are equivalent ("mixed tribe"). As a proof serves the description of the "Tenduk" country by Marco Polo, which says that the prevailing tribe of that country are Argon Christians (i.e. Argyns), which means Basmul. Early Middle Age location of Basmals are given in the Tszychji tuntszyan, where Basmals' residence is named in Beitin, in the Bogdoshan ridge in Guchen area.[2]
Mahmut Kashgari (11th century) listed Basmyls as one of ten prominent Türkic tribes, enumerating location of the Türkic polities from the borders of Greece to the borders of China in the following sequence: Bechen (Badjinak), Kyfchak (Kipchak), Oguz, Yemek (Kimek), Bashgyrt (Bashkort), Basmyl, Kai, Yabaku, Tatars, Kyrgyz. He also noted that the tribes Kai, Yabaku, Tatar, and Basmyl are bilingial, speaking in Türkic alongside their own languages, while Kyrgyzes, Kyfchaks, Oguzes... have their own Türkic languages, and the languages of Yemeks and Bashkirts are close to them.[3]

The old location of Guchen is in Qitai country in China-Xinjiang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qitai_County

more exhaustive about Argyn/Basmyl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmyl
He seems Argyn/Basmil didn't speak turkish originally and becam turkisk-speakers along the Middle-Age, bilingual in 11th century.  

First high frequence G1 was first found in Madyars on Torgay river, maybe an Argyn clan not stated by the map :(Biro et al-2009) n=45 M89,P14 2% G2a-P20 87%, M172 7% M9 2% M231 2%.

SW Altai n=30  G1a-P20 10%
SE  Altai n=890  G1a-P20 1%

In the map, we can notice there is a  Sherkesh clan in the Bayuli tribe  (Is there a link with Caucasian Tcherkesses ?).

Kazak genetics in http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kazakhs.html

What is the link between Argyn G1a and Pathan G1c ?

Sometimes, it is referred  Jewish G1c from a Khazar origin which would contain Central Asian originated people cousin of the Pathans. Don't speak of the horrible and stupid hypothesis about the lost tribes of Israel.
Could you give an other hypothesis ? Pathans are descendants of old Scythians/Sakas. Afghanistan was a part of Seleucid Empire. Seleucids used Scythians and Sakas mercenaries in South-Western Asia  like Gauls in Central Asia

Seleucids founded Scythopolis to create a garrison town for "Scythian mercenaries who settled there as veterans". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_She'an#State_of_Israel

Erratum : common Jewish and Pathans/Pachtouns haplogroup is G2c and not G1c.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 05:25:18 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
palamede
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 05:41:29 PM »

In a study of diverse Kazak tribes . It is based on "First 100 Y-STR haplotypes of ethnic Kazakhs collected by «The Kazakhstan DNA project» have been published
in The Russian Journal of Genetic Genealogy"
The Kazakhstan DNA project is a FTDNA project and samples are those by FTDNA and SGMF(Sorenson).

http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/113
See "Middle Zhug" in the review of the article: Turuspekov Y., Sabitov Zh., Daulet B., Sadykov ... in
http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/download/116/131

n=102 47 C3, 16 G1 (including 13 Argyns for 20 sampled: 65%, 1 Kypshak for 6, 2 Naiman for 12), 1 E1b, 4 J2, 2 N1, 10 O3, 9 R1a, 8 R1b 3 R2 2 Q1

Therefore , for 20 sampled Argyns :  13 G1,   2 R1a, 1 R1b, 1Q1, 3C3
For 6 Kypshaks 1 G1, 4 R1b, 1 O3
For 12 Naimans, 2G1, 7 O3, 2 R1a, 1 C3
Kypshaks and Naimans are neighbours of Argyns and The three tribes are mmembers of thr Middle Jug (North Kazakhstan).
 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 05:50:49 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
palamede
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 05:40:23 AM »

Madyars (or Madgars) were envisaged like cousins of Magyars/Hungarians remained in their ancestral region. Probably it was the reason of they were sampled sooner than other Kazakh clans. They looked for one thing and they found an other thing, the strange strong frequency of G1a who was also  found in several other Argyn clans  later.

Madyars are around the Torgay river. This river (there is a town of same name on the river) is this on the map which flows southwards to Aral river, but doesn't succeed to reach thru the desertic steppes, this  in the western part of the Argyn territory  severed from their biggest territory by a Naiman territory.
In this western territory, the map signals Argyn clans named ЖШ  zhogary-shekty and АТ atygay. Beyond Lower Torgay, they are Alimuly clans of Ш shekty and Ч shomekey  .

http://www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/Docs/Central_Asia/Kazakh_tribal_map.pdf
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 05:46:36 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
intrestedinhistory
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 186


« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »

I suspect the G1 in Kazakhstan has underwent a  lot of bottlenecks. One thing to remember is at least some part Central Asia was settled by farmers from West Asia. It might be that these farmers went farther north than previously though (and into Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan). G1 peaks in Iran and looking at the relationship between Kazakh and Iranian G1 would be worthwhile imo.

Regarding G2c I have no idea about its origins. I doubt Pashtuns are a lost tribe but that doesn't rule out a few Jewish lineages assimilated into their and surrounding populations even if it seems unlikely. As far as I know Pashtun G2c is different to Jewish G2c though. We don't even know where G2c originated. if for example it originated in Central Asia I wouldn't call it Jewish simply because Central Asians were the founder of the Khazar empire and they converted to Judaism. Same thing with calling M73 Turkic (I wouldn't call it Turkic if it was already present in Central Asia before Turks and was then absorbed by them).

It would also be worthwhile to explore where Jewish (and Semitic in general) Z93+ comes from. It peaks in Iranian and Kurdish Jews. This suggest Jewish admixture with Central Asians and Indo-Iranians was the opposite direction of what the Pashtuns are a lost Israelite tribe theory would suggest. It might be that some Jews actually have Indo-Iranian origins. Maybe the same applies to G2c?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 05:41:23 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.083 seconds with 18 queries.