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Author Topic: About G2c again  (Read 1589 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: July 08, 2012, 01:02:49 PM »

Ricardo Costa de Oliveira posts this on Rootsweb, where I am not able to reply to him:


G2c null425 M377 - Ashkenazi Jews - Eastern Europe Polish-Lithuanian
Commonwealth - Italians Egyptian/Lebanese - Jewish Migration - 1000 years
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G2c/default.aspx?section=yresults

We have discussed a lot about this, also with Ted Kandell. I make Ricardo note that the Italians in this list (and many others) have DYS425=11 and not 0.
If this haplogroup was Jewish in its origin, I think that we should find other more ancient haplotypes amongst Jews, what doesn’t happen. Then that this haplogroup is introgressed in the Jewish pool about 1000 years ago is so far the best solution.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 03:18:18 PM »

159519 Laiacona Antonio Laiacona b. 1796 d. abt 1860 Italy G2c
12 23 15 10 13-16 11 12 11 14 11 31 17 8-9 11 11 24 17 21 34 13-14-15-15 11 10 20-20 17 15 16 18 32-33 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 11 20-21 14 10 11 12 15 9 12 18 22 16 13 11 13 11 11 11 12
N19100 Colonell Antonio Colonello, b.circa 1880 Italy G2c
13 23 15 10 13-16 11 12 11 14 11 30 18 8-9 11 11 23 16 21 28 14-14-14-14 11 12 20-20 15 15 18 17 33-35 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 11 21-22 13 10 11 12 16 8 12 19 22 17 13 11 13 10 11 11 12
N58989 Ahmed Shah Durrani - Emir Of Afghanistan 1723-1773 Asadullah Saddu Khan Popalzai 1598-1627 Kandahar Afghanistan G2c1
13 23 16 10 13-16 11 12 11 14 11 31 19 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-15-15-16 12 11 20-20 16 15 16 17 33-33 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 11 22-22 13 10 11 12 14 9 12 19 22 17 13 11 13 11 11 11 12                                                                                       
N56437 Rachid - Obeid/Charabati, origin Ehden, Lebanon Lebanon G
13 23 16 10 14-18 11 12 11 14 11 31 18 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 31 13-14-14-15 11 11 20-21 16 15 16 17 33-35 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 13 11 11 21-25 13 11 11 12 16 8 12 18 22 16 13 11 13 10 11 11 12                                         
N43746 Cigliano Luigi Cigliano, Pozzuoli, Italy Italy G2c
13 23 16 10 16-18 11 12 13 14 11 30 16 9-9 12 11 23 15 21 31 14-14-14-16 11 10 20-20 15 15 16 19 33-34 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 11 11 21-22 16 10 11 11 15 8 11 23 22 17 13 11 8 10 11 12 12                                                             
47955 Nawab   Afghanistan G2c1
13 23 16 11 13-16 11 12 11 13 11 30 19 9-9 11 11 24 17 21 28 13-15-15-15 11 11 20-20 15 15 17 17 33-34 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 10 11 22-22 13 10 11 12 15 9 12 19 22 18 13 11 13 11 11 11 12                                                                                         
M4273 Gazi   Saudi Arabia G2c
13 23 16 11 13-16 11 12 11 14 11 31 20 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-15-15-15 11 11 20-20 16 15 16 17 33-35 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 11   9 11 22-22 13 10 11 12 15 9 11 19 22 17 13 11 13 11 11 11 12                                                                                         
N39323 Nasr. Daou family, Sednaya Syria pre-1096 Lebanon G2c
13 23 16 12 13-17 11 12 12 14 11 32 17 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 30 13-14-14-15 11 11 20-21 16 15 16 18 34-36 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 12 11 11 21-25 13 11 11 12 15 8 12 19 23 17 13 11 13 10 11 11

Compare these haplotypes with a Jew chosen by chance:
55310 Ivins Yosef Ivinitski b. c. 1840 Shepetivka, Ukraine Ukraine G2c
13 23 15 10 13-16 11 12 11 15 11 33 18 8-9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13-14-15-15 10 11 20-20 17 15 15 17 34-35 12 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 11 10   0 21-22 14 10 11 12 14 9 13 19 21 18 13 11 13 10 11 11 12

DYS425=0 derives from a DYS425=11 and never the other way around.
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 08:37:28 PM »

Ricardo Costa de Oliveira writes this on eng.molgen:

I agree with you that DYS425=0 is derived and the modal form of the clade is 11, the 0/null mutation happened already in Europe in a Jew Patriarch because the Jewish descendancy was big and fruitful. I think nobody would contest that fact. G2c is a world-wide rare SNP and of course Italy is just a passageway, just like in the itinerary of any other SNP moving through Europe. Italy was not the source of G2c. I think the remote valleys and plateaus of the Middle East were the root source of the Euro haplogroups/SNPs, the cradle of agriculture/animal husbandry/religions. G2c was born somewhere in the Middle East and if it is found in Egypt and in Lebanon it would be found in the territory of Ancient Israel or Canaan. Let's think, how such a rare SNP like G2c M377 became Italian first, how would G2c had arrived in Italy and why he would later became Jewish exactly in Italy - if he had not been already a Jewish G2c in Italy ? Usually you are Jewish because you had a Jewish tradition and a Jewish heritage. Historically local Christian communites tended to be suspicious towards Jews and Muslims and depending on the conjuncture Jews and Muslims had been the target of hate and prejudice against their religions. In war or peace they could be exterminated in a Christian Medieval environment because they could had their own purposes and interests not related to the mainstream host society or in the case of the Jihadists trying to invade and subjugating Medieval Europe like in Iberia and Sicily. That's a tragic history you know. Why such a rare Italian G2c would not be a foreign Jew brought or moving around Ancient/Medieval Italy if that G2c had not been a Jew before he arrived in Italy coming directly from the Middle East ?

And this is my answer:

Ricardo, I have already written to you in another thread, when I said that you were killing two birds with one stone, and I understand that yours is a great country and is doing its politics, but you are using ideological arguments and I scientific ones. Which proof that “G2c was born somewhere in the Middle East and if it is found in Egypt and in Lebanon it would be found in the territory of Ancient Israel or Canaan”? Which proof that “how such a rare SNP like G2c M377 became Italian first, how would G2c had arrived in Italy and why he would later became Jewish exactly in Italy - if he had not been already a Jewish G2c in Italy ?” Etc. etc.
I haven’t said that G2c is born in Italy, I have said that we haven’t any proof that it was Jewish in its origin, as many other haplotypes present in the Jewish pool from 1000 years ago. In another thread I (and others) have said that it was probably from Khazars with the R1a1a-s, given its presence amongst Pashtuns. The presence amongst Jews of the mtDNA J1b1b1 (see the Italian Merante and an ancestress of one Jew who writes on these forums) is very meaningful, given its presence (a complete FGS) amongst the Buryats, and now it is present also in the Italian Alps, and this should make us think again about its origin.

I make you note that the 3 Italian G2c are very different each other, with mutations not present anywhere and that they cannot be derived recently from other haplotypes tested so far, and that the Jewish G2c-s derive from one person of about 1000 years ago and that he was a Jew is your ideological thinking, without any proof. Probably your position is more sure even of that of Ted Kandell, who seems to be less sure than you that his ancestor was a Jew. Why are you thinking this now, which is very different from what you thought some years ago?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 08:53:59 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 02:24:51 AM »

Ricardo writes on eng.molgen:

Caro Gioiello
How many G2c null425 are not Jews or don't have an Ashkenazi identity ? Even the genetic distance of the 425=11 group is not that distant from the 425=null group, we can calculate tomorrow. G2c was born close to G2 and that's somewhere close to Anatolia again. Bom Domingo !

This my response:

Here Sunday is already over, and the fact that there could be some G2c with DYS425=0 not Jewish ones isn’t in favour of the Jewish origin of this haplogroup. I’ll study it, for finding where Jews took their G2c. I have given that all the G2c were Jewish, which probably isn’t true.
About the markers values I should study them, but Cigliano is at a GD from some Pashtuns of more than 30 out 67 markers, and probably there are many mutations around the modal as says my theory, then the distance is abysmal and Italy could have played a role in its origin like in many other G-Haplogroups (see Ötzi’s G2a4 etc.).

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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 05:27:54 AM »

This has written Archaeogenetics (Ted Kandell) on eng.molgen:

Gioiello and Rico, Cigliano is in the Melik-Haykazian clade. This family is from Lachin in Nagorno-Karabakh, and there is also a haplotype from Kars Turkey (likely an ethnic Kurd) in what was Historic Armenia, and also apparently a single Tabassaran Daghestani tribesman also in this clade. The tMRCA of this earliest G2c clade is 5700 years, very close to the tMRCA of all of R1b1b2a1a1-P310 which is also found in the same region. G2c as a while has a general distribution surrounding the center of the Pre-Pottery Anatolian Neolithic in Southeastern Anatolia, similar to many other haplogroups of the same age including R1b1a2a1-L23*.

Clearly the South Syrian Christian G2c's and their Lebanese Maronite descendants were not "Israelites" or "Judeans", but seem to be the descendants of a nearby population who were also the ancestors of "Judeans".

About Pathan G2c, here is what the Pathans themselves have to say about it.
Notice that these are Muslims and they are not claiming to be from any "Lost Tribes", merely ordinary Medieval Jews who converted to Islam. G2c is about 1%-5% of Pathans in general, and seems to be specific only to certain clans with this tradition with a common ancestor in the Middle Ages:


And this is my answer:

I hope that the believing that Pashtuns are linked to ancient Jews isn’t based upon the etymology that links Pashtuns/Pathans and Jewish Python. Who has known the Greek science, which is at the origin also of European Glottology, cannot come back to this Middle Ages.

And also your statement that Cigliano belongs to the  “Melik-Haykazian clade” is completely wrong. If you are the author of the entry “Haplogroup G2c (Y-DNA)” on Wikipedia, please correct it. It is your credibility.

By using the 22 slowest mutators amongst the 67 markers used by Anatole Klyosov

DYS426, DYS388, DYS392, DYS455, DYS454, DYS438, DYS531, DYS578, 395S1a, 395S1b, DYS590, DYS641,DYS472, DYS425, DYS594, DYS436, DYS490, DYS450, DYS617, DYS568, DYS640, DYS492

we have:

159519:    11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 10 11 12 9 13 11 11 11
N19100:   11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 10 11 12 8 13 11 11 11
N58989    11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 10 11 12 9 13 11 11 11
N56437    11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 11 11 12 8 13 11 11 11
N43746    11 12 11 12 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 10 11 11 8 13 11 11 12
47955       11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 10 11 12 9 13 11 11 11
M4273      11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 10 11 12 9 13 11 11 11
N 39323    11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8 11 11 11 12 8 13 11 11 11

55310        11 12 11 11 11 10 11 8 16 16 8 10 8   0 10 11 12 9 13 11 11 11

Now you can see that Cigliano (N43746) has 3 mutations as to the modal (DYS455, DYS 490, DYS492) and also the others have some mutations, demonstrating that this haplogroup is very old. Anyway Cigliano belongs to a cluster older at least 10,000 years than the others.
Remember that I have written many times that Italy could be at the origin also of hg. G.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 05:40:21 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2012, 04:51:40 AM »

Once more the closest haplotype to Cigliano is found in China, but amongst the Huis, who are those with the highest percentage of Western Eurasian Y-DNA.

1 15 14 30 23 10 11 13 16,18 9 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 118 Ningxia, China [Hui] East Asian - Sino-Tibetan - Chinese Asia
(from YHRD)

I find amongst them also a haplotype close to mine (R-L23).
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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