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Author Topic: New Klyosov paper on R1b from Central Asia via multiple routes  (Read 10756 times)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2012, 11:32:18 PM »

Continuing the BeakerBell info. A nice over view map.

http://what-when-how.com/ancient-europe/bell-beakers-from-west-to-east-consequences-of-agriculture-5000-2000-b-c-ancient-europe/

CHRONOLOGY

In the archaeological literature, there exists a widely held theory about the principal trends in the stylistic development (i.e., the relative chronology) of Bell Beaker ceramic ware. At the beginning were the Maritime beakers, after which follow various types of ceramic ware that have a regional dimension characterized by more squat proportions. A principal change has occurred in our knowledge of the duration of the Bell Beaker period. The image of Bell Beakers as a short-term event that took place at the end of the Copper Age and the beginning of the

Bronze Age is a thing of the past. Accurate chronological data from carbon-14 testing of samples from various regions show that Bell Beakers were a long-lasting and dynamic phenomenon. An analysis by Johannes Muller and Samuel van Willigen published in 2001 took into consideration selected car-bon-14 determinations on short-lived substances such as bone and plant seeds while omitting samples from long-lasting sources such as wood charcoal. Results of this dating provide a picture of an extended Bell Beaker development period having various features in different regions. Its earliest beginnings were in the southern province (Iberian Peninsula, southern France, and northern Italy) about 2800 b.c. The latest dates extend into the first centuries of the second millennium b.c. and are found in the western and northern provinces. Chronological data show that the development of Bell Beakers took place from the west (more specifically from the southwest) toward the east and northeast.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Arwunbee
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« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2012, 02:13:23 AM »

I also suspect, given the widespread survival of L21 in what is now England, that young British warriors took service in Anglo-Saxon warbands (the Gefolge or Posse Comitatus).

How much of the L21 population in England could be attributed to input from the various Germanic invasions?

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Map of L44 subclade (of U106): http://g.co/maps/9xswy
rms2
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« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2012, 10:05:54 AM »

I also suspect, given the widespread survival of L21 in what is now England, that young British warriors took service in Anglo-Saxon warbands (the Gefolge or Posse Comitatus).

How much of the L21 population in England could be attributed to input from the various Germanic invasions?



Myres and Busby didn't find all that much L21 in the old homelands of the Anglo-Saxons, so it isn't likely there was much of an L21 component among them. There is a fair amount of L21 in Norway, and it could be ancient, but that is a matter of controversy, so I can't say whether or not L21 was much of a factor among Norwegian Vikings.

It seems to me the distribution of L21 makes it pretty plain that, in terms of the historical period, it is an overwhelmingly Celtic y haplogroup. Its strong appearance in England is, I think, evidence that the Britons survived there, albeit much reduced from their original predominance.

Where I think there is some potential for confusion is in the possibility that some British L21 may actually be Norman in origin. L21 is pretty frequent in Normandy.
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ironroad41
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« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2012, 11:04:59 AM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 11:10:18 AM by ironroad41 » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2012, 02:41:42 PM »

I also suspect, given the widespread survival of L21 in what is now England, that young British warriors took service in Anglo-Saxon warbands (the Gefolge or Posse Comitatus).

How much of the L21 population in England could be attributed to input from the various Germanic invasions?



I had a very open mind about the whole L21=pre-Roman/U106=historic period germanics concept and I pressed people a lot who automatically assumed this.  However, Having thought a bit more deeply about it, it appears that U106 west of Poland has a variance that suggests it only moved east in the end of the Bronze Age.  This does pretty well fit into the traditional model of the expansions of the germanics and I now doubt much U106 reached Britain in pre-Roman times.  As for L21 in England it really does rise hugely in the more holdout British (I.e. non Anglo-Saxon) areas such as the the West Country, the Pennines (Elmet) etc and falls off a great deal as one heads to the south and east.  It is very high indeed in Wales and Scotland (even in the north-east).  I am always very harsh in questioning theories when I think they are stereotyped but I think the L21-U106 ratio is probably a pretty good idea of the Celtic survival vs Anglo-Saxons.  That is not to say that both peoples did not include other haplotypes but it provides a simple indicator IMO.  It shows that England is divided into a south and east where L21 is not very high by isles standards and a west and north where it is very high although not as high as Wales, Scotland or Ireland.  I think probably that pre-A-S male lineages are predominant among the English in the western half of the country and not just Cornwall etc.  This is not surprising given historical evidence too. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2012, 02:45:49 PM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.


I doubt that the Bretons are predominantly British L21.  There are far too few matches between British and Breton people.  L21 is a substantial clade all the way from the Seine to the Pyrenees in France and even into the basque area in Spain. It is clearly a significant Atlantic clade in that entire stretch and looks like it ruled the waves.
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ironroad41
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« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2012, 03:30:58 PM »

You may be correct.  I would expect some Pictish folks also, based on the similarity of the standing stones near Aberdeen and Brittany?  I don't think Brittany was a byway for R-L21 as it travelled out of Iberia/Switzerland into France and subsequently the Isles.  It may be a mixture, but Caesar admired their seamanship, so that may be a hint?  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 03:32:03 PM by ironroad41 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2012, 06:41:59 PM »

Brittany was an important part of the Bell Beaker network, if that is the right thing to call it. It was also a key part of later trade between the Continent and the Isles.

As Alan said, our Bretons don't get the Welsh and Cornish matches one would expect if they were descended from Post-Roman British refugees.

I think L21 probably got to Brittany before it got to Britain.
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rms2
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« Reply #108 on: June 07, 2012, 06:48:49 PM »

I also suspect, given the widespread survival of L21 in what is now England, that young British warriors took service in Anglo-Saxon warbands (the Gefolge or Posse Comitatus).

How much of the L21 population in England could be attributed to input from the various Germanic invasions?



I had a very open mind about the whole L21=pre-Roman/U106=historic period germanics concept and I pressed people a lot who automatically assumed this.  However, Having thought a bit more deeply about it, it appears that U106 west of Poland has a variance that suggests it only moved east in the end of the Bronze Age.  This does pretty well fit into the traditional model of the expansions of the germanics and I now doubt much U106 reached Britain in pre-Roman times.  As for L21 in England it really does rise hugely in the more holdout British (I.e. non Anglo-Saxon) areas such as the the West Country, the Pennines (Elmet) etc and falls off a great deal as one heads to the south and east.  It is very high indeed in Wales and Scotland (even in the north-east).  I am always very harsh in questioning theories when I think they are stereotyped but I think the L21-U106 ratio is probably a pretty good idea of the Celtic survival vs Anglo-Saxons.  That is not to say that both peoples did not include other haplotypes but it provides a simple indicator IMO.  It shows that England is divided into a south and east where L21 is not very high by isles standards and a west and north where it is very high although not as high as Wales, Scotland or Ireland.  I think probably that pre-A-S male lineages are predominant among the English in the western half of the country and not just Cornwall etc.  This is not surprising given historical evidence too.  

That's right. If you look at the distribution of L21 in the Isles, and the contrasting distributions of U106 and I1, it's hard not to conclude that L21=Celts and those others=Germanics (Anglo-Saxons, Vikings). It slaps you right in the face, it seems to me.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Please be sure to notice that those three maps use different shading scales.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 06:50:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2012, 11:15:52 AM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.


I doubt that the Bretons are predominantly British L21.  There are far too few matches between British and Breton people.  L21 is a substantial clade all the way from the Seine to the Pyrenees in France and even into the basque area in Spain. It is clearly a significant Atlantic clade in that entire stretch and looks like it ruled the waves.

I don't know what the percentage of Bretons is that are L21, but it is true that they don't generally fit into British Isles clusters well.

It is also noteworthy that the ratio M222 to L21 is much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia. The implication is that the majority of L21 in Scandinavia did not come from Ireland in the Viking age where slave trade is often held out as an alternative. That's not to say that some L21 and M222 couldn't have come with slave trade and/or merchant/shipping.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:16:12 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2012, 01:12:59 PM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.


I doubt that the Bretons are predominantly British L21.  There are far too few matches between British and Breton people.  L21 is a substantial clade all the way from the Seine to the Pyrenees in France and even into the basque area in Spain. It is clearly a significant Atlantic clade in that entire stretch and looks like it ruled the waves.

I don't know what the percentage of Bretons is that are L21, but it is true that they don't generally fit into British Isles clusters well.

It is also noteworthy that the ratio M222 to L21 is much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia. The implication is that the majority of L21 in Scandinavia did not come from Ireland in the Viking age where slave trade is often held out as an alternative. That's not to say that some L21 and M222 couldn't have come with slave trade and/or merchant/shipping.

I agree with the first paragraph but I have always wondered about the arguement in the 2nd.  One thing that has to be taken into account is where in Ireland were most of the permanent Viking settlements.  Basically the most enduring run along the SE to SW part of the coast (Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick).  What I would be interrested to know is what is the amount of M222 in those areas and secondly how many of them have northern names that suggest they have only got there in the post-Viking era (probably the last 400 years in fact).  I would reckon that the figure reached would be a great deal lower than the M222 average for Ireland.   
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2012, 03:58:47 PM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.


I doubt that the Bretons are predominantly British L21.  There are far too few matches between British and Breton people.  L21 is a substantial clade all the way from the Seine to the Pyrenees in France and even into the basque area in Spain. It is clearly a significant Atlantic clade in that entire stretch and looks like it ruled the waves.

I don't know what the percentage of Bretons is that are L21, but it is true that they don't generally fit into British Isles clusters well.

It is also noteworthy that the ratio M222 to L21 is much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia. The implication is that the majority of L21 in Scandinavia did not come from Ireland in the Viking age where slave trade is often held out as an alternative. That's not to say that some L21 and M222 couldn't have come with slave trade and/or merchant/shipping.

I agree with the first paragraph but I have always wondered about the arguement in the 2nd.  One thing that has to be taken into account is where in Ireland were most of the permanent Viking settlements.  Basically the most enduring run along the SE to SW part of the coast (Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick).  What I would be interrested to know is what is the amount of M222 in those areas and secondly how many of them have northern names that suggest they have only got there in the post-Viking era (probably the last 400 years in fact).  I would reckon that the figure reached would be a great deal lower than the M222 average for Ireland.  

I tried to figure this out. Fortunately, we do have a lot of granularity in our DNA project MDKA's, more so than in the major studies.

You are right that Leinster's M222/L21 ratio is lower than Ulster's.   Here are the ratios I have from our DNA project data.  This is not scientifically sampled, just whatever reflects who's been testing.

Nordic: 4%
Leinster: 28%
Highland & Islands: 13%
Ulster: 43%

I don't think there is any doubt that Ulster is M222 land.

Just looking at the Nordic Countries, I get that 40% of the L21 is unassignable to a cluster.  The biggest variety of L21 I find is Irish Sea (Z255.) I get that 12% of the Nordic L21 is Irish Sea.

There are only a couple of Scots Modal folks and Irish II that I can find in Scandinavia. Zero Irish III.

After looking at the Nordic ht's, and given all of the work that has been given to identifying clusters, I don't think much of the Nordic L21 is due to slave trade.  I don't know, but maybe 10% or even only a percent or two.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:13:33 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2012, 06:09:05 PM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.


I doubt that the Bretons are predominantly British L21.  There are far too few matches between British and Breton people.  L21 is a substantial clade all the way from the Seine to the Pyrenees in France and even into the basque area in Spain. It is clearly a significant Atlantic clade in that entire stretch and looks like it ruled the waves.

I don't know what the percentage of Bretons is that are L21, but it is true that they don't generally fit into British Isles clusters well.

It is also noteworthy that the ratio M222 to L21 is much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia. The implication is that the majority of L21 in Scandinavia did not come from Ireland in the Viking age where slave trade is often held out as an alternative. That's not to say that some L21 and M222 couldn't have come with slave trade and/or merchant/shipping.

I agree with the first paragraph but I have always wondered about the arguement in the 2nd.  One thing that has to be taken into account is where in Ireland were most of the permanent Viking settlements.  Basically the most enduring run along the SE to SW part of the coast (Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick).  What I would be interrested to know is what is the amount of M222 in those areas and secondly how many of them have northern names that suggest they have only got there in the post-Viking era (probably the last 400 years in fact).  I would reckon that the figure reached would be a great deal lower than the M222 average for Ireland.  

I tried to figure this out. Fortunately, we do have a lot of granularity in our DNA project MDKA's, more so than in the major studies.

You are right that Leinster's M222/L21 ratio is lower than Ulster's.   Here are the ratios I have from our DNA project data.  This is not scientifically sampled, just whatever reflects who's been testing.

Nordic: 4%
Leinster: 28%
Highland & Islands: 13%
Ulster: 43%

I don't think there is any doubt that Ulster is M222 land.

Just looking at the Nordic Countries, I get that 40% of the L21 is unassignable to a cluster.  The biggest variety of L21 I find is Irish Sea (Z255.) I get that 12% of the Nordic L21 is Irish Sea.

There are only a couple of Scots Modal folks and Irish II that I can find in Scandinavia. Zero Irish III.

After looking at the Nordic ht's, and given all of the work that has been given to identifying clusters, I don't think much of the Nordic L21 is due slave trade.  I don't know, by maybe 10% or even only a percent or two.

I would bet too that a lot of the Leinster 25% have surnames that indicate origins in the north in the last few centuries.  On top of that I would think a lot of the M222 is from the north of Leinster i.e Meath, which wasnt really part of Leinster in the Viking period but was part of the Ui Neill grouping that had extended into that area from the west.  I would  tend to look at the chief counties where Vikings had long lasting influence as Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork and Limerick.  I would love to see a percentage of M222 against L21 'all' for those counties of highest Viking impact combined.  Bear in mind too that even that figure would be a maximum due to later drift.  Edit-You would need to exclude urban Dublin too because is basically sucked in half of Ireland so it wont be saft.  Rural Co. Dublin would be OK though.  I could be wrong but I think that little list would drop the maximum.  Once you have a list it then needs to be scrutinised for Ui Neill blow on surnames.  If someone can get a list of surnames of M222 in those counties I am sure I could have a go at that although there is another guy who would do it better who posts here sometimes.
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OConnor
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« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2012, 10:09:36 PM »

I suspected the bulk of M222 could have arrived in Ireland from Scotland as Gallowglass.

"The first record of gallowglass service under the Irish was in 1259, when Aedh Ó Conchobair, King of Connacht, received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides. They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population."

"In 1569 Turlough O'Neill married Lady Agnes MacDonald of Kintyre. Her dowry consisted of at least 1200 galloglass fighters. Along with support of two young men as support and friends on top to assist or fight this could easily have numbered over 5,000 current and future Gallowglass coming into the area"

By 1512, there were reported to be fifty-nine groups throughout the country under the control of the Irish nobility. Though initially they were mercenaries, over time they settled and their ranks became filled with native Irish men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:10:19 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


NealtheRed
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« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2012, 11:12:22 PM »

I suspected the bulk of M222 could have arrived in Ireland from Scotland as Gallowglass.

"The first record of gallowglass service under the Irish was in 1259, when Aedh Ó Conchobair, King of Connacht, received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides. They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population."

"In 1569 Turlough O'Neill married Lady Agnes MacDonald of Kintyre. Her dowry consisted of at least 1200 galloglass fighters. Along with support of two young men as support and friends on top to assist or fight this could easily have numbered over 5,000 current and future Gallowglass coming into the area"

By 1512, there were reported to be fifty-nine groups throughout the country under the control of the Irish nobility. Though initially they were mercenaries, over time they settled and their ranks became filled with native Irish men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass



I am definitely sure that some M222 went back and forth from Ulster to the Western Isles, but I think the signature is much more apparent among those Irish chieftains who hired the gallowglass (i.e. the O'Donnells, O'Neills, etc.).

The MacDonnells of Antrim immediately come to mind when you mention gallowglass soldiers being invited by Irish chieftains. The MacDonnell chiefs inherited a Norwegian R1a1 signature, although I suspect Z255 (and to a lesser degree, M222) was among those soldiers allied to Clan Donald and other clans of the Hebrides.

Sorry about the digression!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:12:50 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Heber
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« Reply #115 on: June 09, 2012, 10:31:04 AM »

I would guess that most of the R=L21 in Brittany is the result of the emigration out of the Wales area after the departure of the Romans and the invasions into England by the Scottis and the Picts, c. 440 AD.  I would be interested in knowing, however, what sub-clade of R-L21 the French Normans are?

re: the Norwegian R-L21's, I would hazard a guess part of them might have arrived from Dublin, the headquarters for the slave trade of the Norwegians c. 700-800 AD+.


I doubt that the Bretons are predominantly British L21.  There are far too few matches between British and Breton people.  L21 is a substantial clade all the way from the Seine to the Pyrenees in France and even into the basque area in Spain. It is clearly a significant Atlantic clade in that entire stretch and looks like it ruled the waves.

I don't know what the percentage of Bretons is that are L21, but it is true that they don't generally fit into British Isles clusters well.

It is also noteworthy that the ratio M222 to L21 is much higher in Ireland than in Scandinavia. The implication is that the majority of L21 in Scandinavia did not come from Ireland in the Viking age where slave trade is often held out as an alternative. That's not to say that some L21 and M222 couldn't have come with slave trade and/or merchant/shipping.

I agree with the first paragraph but I have always wondered about the arguement in the 2nd.  One thing that has to be taken into account is where in Ireland were most of the permanent Viking settlements.  Basically the most enduring run along the SE to SW part of the coast (Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick).  What I would be interrested to know is what is the amount of M222 in those areas and secondly how many of them have northern names that suggest they have only got there in the post-Viking era (probably the last 400 years in fact).  I would reckon that the figure reached would be a great deal lower than the M222 average for Ireland.  

I tried to figure this out. Fortunately, we do have a lot of granularity in our DNA project MDKA's, more so than in the major studies.

You are right that Leinster's M222/L21 ratio is lower than Ulster's.   Here are the ratios I have from our DNA project data.  This is not scientifically sampled, just whatever reflects who's been testing.

Nordic: 4%
Leinster: 28%
Highland & Islands: 13%
Ulster: 43%

I don't think there is any doubt that Ulster is M222 land.

Just looking at the Nordic Countries, I get that 40% of the L21 is unassignable to a cluster.  The biggest variety of L21 I find is Irish Sea (Z255.) I get that 12% of the Nordic L21 is Irish Sea.

There are only a couple of Scots Modal folks and Irish II that I can find in Scandinavia. Zero Irish III.

After looking at the Nordic ht's, and given all of the work that has been given to identifying clusters, I don't think much of the Nordic L21 is due slave trade.  I don't know, by maybe 10% or even only a percent or two.

I would bet too that a lot of the Leinster 25% have surnames that indicate origins in the north in the last few centuries.  On top of that I would think a lot of the M222 is from the north of Leinster i.e Meath, which wasnt really part of Leinster in the Viking period but was part of the Ui Neill grouping that had extended into that area from the west.  I would  tend to look at the chief counties where Vikings had long lasting influence as Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork and Limerick.  I would love to see a percentage of M222 against L21 'all' for those counties of highest Viking impact combined.  Bear in mind too that even that figure would be a maximum due to later drift.  Edit-You would need to exclude urban Dublin too because is basically sucked in half of Ireland so it wont be saft.  Rural Co. Dublin would be OK though.  I could be wrong but I think that little list would drop the maximum.  Once you have a list it then needs to be scrutinised for Ui Neill blow on surnames.  If someone can get a list of surnames of M222 in those counties I am sure I could have a go at that although there is another guy who would do it better who posts here sometimes.

Alan,

About 66% of surnames in Ireland were of Gaelic origin.
The rest being a mixture of Norman, Scottish, Viking and Gallowglass with smaller communities of Huguenot and Palatine Germans.

The Gaelic names such as O Neill, O Donnell, Magennis, Maguire, O Reilly, MacMahon, O Farrell, O Connor, O Rourke, Mc Donagh, O Hara, Mc Dermott, O Toole, O Byrne, O Kennedy, O Madden, O Brian,  O Carroll, Mc Carthy, O Sullivan etc had specific Clan territories and are well documented on the Irish History in Maps site. A complete list of Gaelic names and their locations is given here.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/irenames.htm

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/
This site gives a good indication of the evolution of Clans by century from the earliest times to the 20th C.

The Scottish names such as Mac Donnell, Macquillan, MacKeon were confined to the North East Antrim area. Most of these were Dalriada, so they came from Ireland originally and were probably M222.
Gallowglasses such as McSweeney were concentrated in Donegal with small scatterings such as MacSheehy, McCabe, McDonald further south. These were a mixture of Gaelic Dalriada (M222) and Viking.
Vikings such as Harold, Cotter, Coppinger, as you rightly pointed out were we're concentrated in the towns of Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Drougheda.
The Normans such as Butler, Walsh, Burke, Power, Fitzgerald, Roche, FitzMaurice, Barry, de Lacey etc were clustered around their castles in the Pale and towns like Trim, Kilkenny, Waterford, Wexford, Portumna etc.
A complete list of Normal names and their location is given here:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/irename2.htm

You can plug in a name in the Irish Origenes Surname Database for a map of its distribution and origin.
This is based on data from the 1911 census. For a bit more granualarity you can search on the 1901 Census.

http://www.irishorigenes.com/surnames-database

We are now getting close to being able to match the Clan, Sept and Family name tree to the halpogroup tree.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



OConnor
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« Reply #116 on: June 09, 2012, 05:07:23 PM »

It makes some sense to me that people would adopt names when their time came to do so.   Perhaps some, or many people adopted the closest Irish sept name?

I see m222 in the Sweeney Project. This surname is associated with Gallowglass and Donegal. Although they are a Scottish clan, they claim descent from Niall.
Convienient?

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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2012, 12:12:50 PM »

As Alan mentioned the modern province of Leinster is considerably larger then historic kingdom of Leinster. Which was basically restricted to South of Dublin and consisting of only the counties of Wicklow, Wexford, Kildare. The sub-kingdom of Osraighe (Killkenny/Laois) was basically independent and generally the Kings of Munster counted them as vassals. The liffey in Dublin was often seen as a borderzone between Meath and Leinster. One of reasons the Vikings were so successfully able to settle there.

The royal house of Dublin was heavily intermarried with the Leinster royalty so it's not surprising that the likes of Z255/L159.2 would spread into Norse world of the 9-12th centuries.

Maps:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Kingdom_of_Mide-900.svg/1000px-Kingdom_of_Mide-900.svg.png

versus modern day province:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Leinster_locator_map.svg/1000px-Leinster_locator_map.svg.png

Meath (Mí -- Midhe in "Middle Irish") was obviously the realm of the Southern Uí Néill dynasty, likewise Connacht was under controll of related dynasties of Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach. We see M222+ results for these dynastical groupings. There were no successfull Viking settlements that survived more then 10-15 years north of Dublin in the East or North of Limerick in the Mid-West. Given that area is heart of M222+ in Ireland (going on Trinity study for one + Busby) it's not surprising we don't see a huge amount of M222 flow into Scandinavia.

With regards to Irish Type III (L226), well the Dál gCais are of course famous for conqueoring the Viking city of Limerick which ended up with it been a Vassal of Brian. The city was actually sacked. Of course the city of Dublin was by far the most important Viking settlement in Ireland and one of their largest trading ports in Europe.
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