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JeanL
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« Reply #150 on: June 04, 2012, 09:26:53 PM »

No, I'm saying that it matches better with other studies from Italy where 33% would be the absolute minimum R1b.

Would you mind providing which studies show R1b in Central Italy to be around 50%, also, please provide sample sizes.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #151 on: June 04, 2012, 09:57:33 PM »

No, I'm saying that it matches better with other studies from Italy where 33% would be the absolute minimum R1b.

Would you mind providing which studies show R1b in Central Italy to be around 50%, also, please provide sample sizes.

This is from Capelli 2007. The Central Italian data is in red... http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Capelli_Graph.png

If we want to get technical, Garfagnana in NW Tuscany has the highest level of R1b (76.2%) of any sampled Italian area (Di Giacomo 2003).
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JeanL
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« Reply #152 on: June 04, 2012, 10:16:53 PM »


This is from Capelli 2007. The Central Italian data is in red... http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Capelli_Graph.png

If we want to get technical, Garfagnana in NW Tuscany has the highest level of R1b (76.2%) of any sampled Italian area (Di Giacomo 2003).

Yeah, I've seen the Capelli.et.al study, nonetheless you were talking about Romans being majority R1b, yet in that study it shows the North-East Latium (n=55) has 38% of R1(xR1a1), and South Latium (n=51) has 37% of R1(xR1a1). In total the Central Italian samples have 172 R1(xR1a1) which is equal to 172/407 or 42.26% R1b, once again not really reaching majority status.


Here is the Di Giacomo.et.al.2003 study: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

Here is Table-1 http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/DiGiacomoetal2003-Table-1.jpg

Here is figure-1 http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/DiGiacomoetal2003-Figure-1.jpg

So once more, I don't see any indication that Romans had an R1b majority, at least not from modern day DNA.

PS: Kudos for your U152 website, it is very well constructed and very informative.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 10:21:49 PM by JeanL » Logged
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #153 on: June 04, 2012, 10:31:12 PM »


This is from Capelli 2007. The Central Italian data is in red... http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Capelli_Graph.png

If we want to get technical, Garfagnana in NW Tuscany has the highest level of R1b (76.2%) of any sampled Italian area (Di Giacomo 2003).

Yeah, I've seen the Capelli.et.al study, nonetheless you were talking about Romans being majority R1b, yet in that study it shows the North-East Latium (n=55) has 38% of R1(xR1a1), and South Latium (n=51) has 37% of R1(xR1a1). In total the Central Italian samples have 172 R1(xR1a1) which is equal to 172/407 or 42.26% R1b, once again not really reaching majority status.


Here is the Di Giacomo.et.al.2003 study: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

Here is Table-1 http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/DiGiacomoetal2003-Table-1.jpg

Here is figure-1 http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/DiGiacomoetal2003-Figure-1.jpg

So once more, I don't see any indication that Romans had an R1b majority, at least not from modern day DNA.

PS: Kudos for your U152 website, it is very well constructed and very informative.

Any way you want to sugar coat it, R1b is still the highest haplogroup in Central Italy and was probably more so before the Rome became the capital of the ancient world.
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JeanL
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« Reply #154 on: June 04, 2012, 10:45:15 PM »

Any way you want to sugar coat it, R1b is still the highest haplogroup in Central Italy and was probably more so before the Rome became the capital of the ancient world.

No need to sugar coat anything, simply showing you that your statement:

"And for that reason, I've said many times that the Romans must have been a diverse Y-DNA group by the time they started their expansion. (with an R1b majority of course)."

Is not supported by modern DNA data, Latium(Lazio) shows R1b at levels of 37-38%, certainly not a majority. From Capelli et.al.2007

North-East Latium(n=55) R1(xR1a1) 38% , J2 15% , G 13%, E3b1 22%

South Latium(n=51) R1(xR1a1) 37% , J2 25% , G 12%

So, yeah R1(xR1a1) has the highest frequency in Central Europe, but it doesn't translate into Romans being majority R1b.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 10:47:26 PM by JeanL » Logged
A_Wode
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« Reply #155 on: June 04, 2012, 11:13:55 PM »

The mathematical definition would be greater than 50%. However, Rome covered North and Central Italy, so I expect that there is a strong possibility that Romans were very near majority R1b, if not majority.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #156 on: June 05, 2012, 09:44:52 AM »

Any way you want to sugar coat it, R1b is still the highest haplogroup in Central Italy and was probably more so before the Rome became the capital of the ancient world.

No need to sugar coat anything, simply showing you that your statement:

"And for that reason, I've said many times that the Romans must have been a diverse Y-DNA group by the time they started their expansion. (with an R1b majority of course)."

Is not supported by modern DNA data, Latium(Lazio) shows R1b at levels of 37-38%, certainly not a majority. From Capelli et.al.2007

North-East Latium(n=55) R1(xR1a1) 38% , J2 15% , G 13%, E3b1 22%

South Latium(n=51) R1(xR1a1) 37% , J2 25% , G 12%

So, yeah R1(xR1a1) has the highest frequency in Central Europe, but it doesn't translate into Romans being majority R1b.

Trying to equate modern R1b frequency in Latium with the exact percentage that the Romans had is plain silly. Everyone knows (at least those who know Rome is in Central Italy and not Southern Italy) that Rome was the ancient equivalent of New York City for almost a thousand years and that its makeup 2,000 years ago can only be deduced. So I'll repeat, R1b was a majority in the Latin tribes (Romans) when they started their expansion.
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JeanL
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« Reply #157 on: June 05, 2012, 10:29:28 AM »

Trying to equate modern R1b frequency in Latium with the exact percentage that the Romans had is plain silly. Everyone knows (at least those who know Rome is in Central Italy and not Southern Italy) that Rome was the ancient equivalent of New York City for almost a thousand years and that its makeup 2,000 years ago can only be deduced.

Really!!! You are going to try to pull that Ad Hominem on me. Well, the thing is that the percentages were taken at different places in the region of Latium, unless, you want to argue that all of them were taken in the City of Rome, which there is nothing that would indicate that the samples came from Rome.

So I'll repeat, R1b was a majority in the Latin tribes (Romans) when they started their expansion.

Well, I find it odd that the places where R1b is highest in Central Italy is where the Etruscans lived.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/DiGiacomoetal2003-Figure-1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Iron_Age_Italy.png

So are we to assume that there was a complete population replacement of Etruscans by Romans, and that is why the frequency of R1b is high there, but at the same time something happened in Latium that drove the frequency of R1b down. 
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #158 on: June 05, 2012, 10:56:15 AM »

Trying to equate modern R1b frequency in Latium with the exact percentage that the Romans had is plain silly. Everyone knows (at least those who know Rome is in Central Italy and not Southern Italy) that Rome was the ancient equivalent of New York City for almost a thousand years and that its makeup 2,000 years ago can only be deduced.

Really!!! You are going to try to pull that Ad Hominem on me. Well, the thing is that the percentages were taken at different places in the region of Latium, unless, you want to argue that all of them were taken in the City of Rome, which there is nothing that would indicate that the samples came from Rome.

So I'll repeat, R1b was a majority in the Latin tribes (Romans) when they started their expansion.

Well, I find it odd that the places where R1b is highest in Central Italy is where the Etruscans lived.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/DiGiacomoetal2003-Figure-1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Iron_Age_Italy.png

So are we to assume that there was a complete population replacement of Etruscans by Romans, and that is why the frequency of R1b is high there, but at the same time something happened in Latium that drove the frequency of R1b down. 


Well, I can tell you that immigration into New York City has changed the Y-DNA picture for hundreds of miles in every direction. Same applies to Latium and Rome.

As for the Etruscans, Herodotos wrote that they settled in the territory of the Umbrians who were a P-Italic speaking people.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #159 on: June 05, 2012, 12:37:10 PM »

As for the Etruscans, Herodotos wrote that they settled in the territory of the Umbrians who were a P-Italic speaking people.
But why do you insist about Etruscans come from elsewhere? Herodotus lived in the 5th century BC and Etruscans lived in Italy at least from many centuries (documented by linguistic inscriptions) but very likely from thousands of years if they were the Villanovians. Dionysus of Halicarnassus, who lived in more recent times, said the contrary: that they were autochthonous of Italy. Also if there was an upper class of Eastern origin, it influenced a little the genetics. I have broken in pieces all the papers published on the Etruscans, beginning from that of Brisighelli, and her classification of hg. U7 hasn’t been received by the last Behar 2012b.
The genetics of Italy is due to prehistoric times (except some income happened later, but where are the descendants of the millions of slaves? Show me their Y!).
Historians should stop to say that “The Sea Peoples” came from he Aegean Sea. Etruscans, Sardinians and Sicels came from Italy, which was in growth at the end of the 2nd millennium BC.
The percentage of hg. R1b in Italy is different from North to South only because South had more migration of the agriculturalist from the Balkans, but probably before the Neolithic were more homogeneous, and this is demonstrated also from your Western Sicily, where Italic peoples were less influenced from Greek or other migration.
Your believing about the recent times of hg. R1b and its migration from East leaks from everywhere.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 12:40:18 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #160 on: June 05, 2012, 01:16:22 PM »

I find the idea that L51 derived as non-IE and L23xL51 as IE a total contradiction of the modern reality.  I think Mike has shown that L23xL51 is similar in age as L51-derived in most of Europe.

I'm not sure about that(That in Europe L23xL51 has about the same age as L51+). Also, it is not L23xL51 non IE, and L51+ IE. I said it before, L23xL51 is nonIE, Neolithic comes by an some L23xL51 ends up in Western Europe, or somewhere in Europe, likely to the West. L23xL51 also heads to the Steppe, over there it learns PIE along with R1a, by the process that is commonly known. Meanwhile L23xL51 in Europe develops into L51 and retains its ancient language. Something(Megalithism, Bell Beaker, etc) makes L51, or its decendant L11 expand circa 4000 to 5000 ybp, some of them make it to Eastern Europe, in there R1b-U106 makes it debut. P312 was likely the byproduct of Beaker expansions, while one could argue that L11+ was early Beaker. Then in the mean time you get the arrival of L23xL51 cousins from the Steppe  who bring IE languages along with R1a. The contact zone of L23xL51 and L51+ is in Central Europe, so P312 subclades born in Central Europe, and maybe most of France(Minus Southwestern France) learn IE languages, some of them do expansions on their own(i.e. L21, U152), which could be linked to the Urnfield Culture, or the Italo-Celtic languages.

Here is a question - if you remove the relatively late P312 subclades in the Basque country, would it actually be so high in P312?  Is the level not greatly raised by  late local subclades? I understand about 10% of Basques are SRY2627 which is a fairly yound clade and also that Basque L21 is part of an even younger cluster. Those along could be responsible for the excess of p312 among Basques compared to their neighbours

Well SRY2627 is pretty high in Catalonia, and its phylogenetic position places it inside the Z196 haplogroup, so I don’t see why it ought to be removed. But if you are interested in the percentages of P312(xL21+,U152+,SRY2627), well here you go from Martinez-Cruz.et.al.2012:

R-P312(xL21+,U152+,SRY2627)

Gascony

Bigorre: 20/44 or 45.45%
Bearn: 22/56 or 39.29%
Chalosse: 30/58 or 51.72%

French Basque

Lapurdi/Baztan: 21/44 or 47.73%
Lapurdi Nafarroa: 31/66 or 46.97%
Zuberoa: 37/53 or 69.81%

Navarra

Roncal and Salazar valleys: 25/53 or 47.17%
Central Western Nafarroa: 37/60 or 61.67%
North Western Nafarroa:  30/51 or 58.82%

Spanish Basque

Gipuzkoa: 31/47 or 65.96%
SouthWestern Gipuzkoa: 36/57 or 63.16%
Araba: 20/51 or 39.22%
Bizkaia: 42/57 or 73.68%

North Spain

La Rioja: 20/54 or 37.04%
North Aragon: 14/27 or 51.85%*

*Sample size is small compared to others.  Also the percentages are of the total sample size, not of the amount of R1b-L23+ derived clades found.



Thanks.  Also I would be curious to see the variance ages of the various P312 clades (intraclade) in and around the Basque areas.  I am curious to see which P312 clades are oldest among the basques.  I understand about bottlenecks etc but it would be interesting to no, despite bottlenecks, which P312 clades seem older and younger among the basques and how that compares to their neighbours.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #161 on: June 05, 2012, 01:17:43 PM »

As for the Etruscans, Herodotos wrote that they settled in the territory of the Umbrians who were a P-Italic speaking people.
But why do you insist about Etruscans come from elsewhere? Herodotus lived in the 5th century BC and Etruscans lived in Italy at least from many centuries (documented by linguistic inscriptions) but very likely from thousands of years if they were the Villanovians. Dionysus of Halicarnassus, who lived in more recent times, said the contrary: that they were autochthonous of Italy. Also if there was an upper class of Eastern origin, it influenced a little the genetics. I have broken in pieces all the papers published on the Etruscans, beginning from that of Brisighelli, and her classification of hg. U7 hasn’t been received by the last Behar 2012b.
The genetics of Italy is due to prehistoric times (except some income happened later, but where are the descendants of the millions of slaves? Show me their Y!).
Historians should stop to say that “The Sea Peoples” came from he Aegean Sea. Etruscans, Sardinians and Sicels came from Italy, which was in growth at the end of the 2nd millennium BC.
The percentage of hg. R1b in Italy is different from North to South only because South had more migration of the agriculturalist from the Balkans, but probably before the Neolithic were more homogeneous, and this is demonstrated also from your Western Sicily, where Italic peoples were less influenced from Greek or other migration.
Your believing about the recent times of hg. R1b and its migration from East leaks from everywhere.


What do you think of the idea that was in a recent paper I posted yesterday that Etruscan might actually be an IE language in the ancient Anatolian branch.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #162 on: June 05, 2012, 02:17:30 PM »

What do you think of the idea that was in a recent paper I posted yesterday that Etruscan might actually be an IE language in the ancient Anatolian branch.
There are many theories about this. Do you remember the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev? He thought that E-truria did derive from Trusia with the Latin rotacism and Trusia were the Greek Troie (Troy). Someone linked Etruscan with some post-Hittite languages etc. All theories. Practically there isn’t a language all over the world that isn’t been linked with Etruscan, and you may understand from this that these theories have nothing serious.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #163 on: June 05, 2012, 02:43:29 PM »

As for the Etruscans, Herodotos wrote that they settled in the territory of the Umbrians who were a P-Italic speaking people.
But why do you insist about Etruscans come from elsewhere? Herodotus lived in the 5th century BC and Etruscans lived in Italy at least from many centuries (documented by linguistic inscriptions) but very likely from thousands of years if they were the Villanovians. Dionysus of Halicarnassus, who lived in more recent times, said the contrary: that they were autochthonous of Italy. Also if there was an upper class of Eastern origin, it influenced a little the genetics. I have broken in pieces all the papers published on the Etruscans, beginning from that of Brisighelli, and her classification of hg. U7 hasn’t been received by the last Behar 2012b.
The genetics of Italy is due to prehistoric times (except some income happened later, but where are the descendants of the millions of slaves? Show me their Y!).
Historians should stop to say that “The Sea Peoples” came from he Aegean Sea. Etruscans, Sardinians and Sicels came from Italy, which was in growth at the end of the 2nd millennium BC.
The percentage of hg. R1b in Italy is different from North to South only because South had more migration of the agriculturalist from the Balkans, but probably before the Neolithic were more homogeneous, and this is demonstrated also from your Western Sicily, where Italic peoples were less influenced from Greek or other migration.
Your believing about the recent times of hg. R1b and its migration from East leaks from everywhere.


I agree those Etruscan genetic studies are pure junk, so we are in agreement there.

Pallottino probably had it right, and both the Etruscans and the Italics were constructs of people by the time the Greeks started interacting with them. However, whether the Etruscans were autochthonous or relatively late arrivals, there is enough to think that they were confined to a smaller area along the Tyrrhenian  and later expanded into Italic speaking areas (Greater Etruria), just like the Romans and Greeks wrote about.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any Y-DNA from areas like Tarquinia to really form an opinion on the autochthonous/non-autochthonous debate.
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« Reply #164 on: June 05, 2012, 03:49:52 PM »

Unfortunately I haven't seen any Y-DNA from areas like Tarquinia to really form an opinion on the autochthonous/non-autochthonous debate.
Richard, but you who are an administrator of some haplogroups and you aren’t a VV, why don’t you care of Mangino, actually the Tuscan Mancini from Monticiano (Siena), deep Etruria:
1)   to test him again for ascertain if he is really M269+
2)   and after to promote a WTY or the last 454 (if I am not wrong). I offered to contribute. If he is M269, he breaks probably the line of SNPs around M269. This is the true Etruscan people.


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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #165 on: June 05, 2012, 04:02:42 PM »

The percentage of hg. R1b in Italy is different from North to South only because South had more migration of the agriculturalist from the Balkans, but probably before the Neolithic were more homogeneous, and this is demonstrated also from your Western Sicily, where Italic peoples were less influenced from Greek or other migration.
Your believing about the recent times of hg. R1b and its migration from East leaks from everywhere.

Another rationale for R1b being higher in the North of Italy rather than in the South could be that R1b came into Italy from the North.

The major R1b haplogroup in Italy is U152. With 67 STR ht's, here are the relative variance results for U152 from our DNA projects.

U152 Italy__________:  Var=0.96 [Mixed 49]  (N=37)
U152 Italy__________:  Var=0.88 [Linear 36]  (N=37)
   
U152 France_________:  Var=1.23 [Mixed 49]  (N=46)
U152 France_________:  Var=1.18 [Linear 36]  (N=46)


R1b U152 could very well have come into Italy from the north.

As far as R1b xU152, I don't know.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 04:06:34 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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JeanL
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« Reply #166 on: June 05, 2012, 07:12:34 PM »

Thanks.  Also I would be curious to see the variance ages of the various P312 clades (intraclade) in and around the Basque areas.  I am curious to see which P312 clades are oldest among the basques.  I understand about bottlenecks etc but it would be interesting to no, despite bottlenecks, which P312 clades seem older and younger among the basques and how that compares to their neighbours.   


In search of the Pre- and Post-Neolithic Genetic Substrates in Iberia: Evidence from Y-Chromosome in Pyrenean Populations

From the paper:

Quote from: Lopez-Parra.et.al.2008

However comparing the average STR variances of the R1b1b2c (0.243), R1b1b2d (0.207) and I2a2 (0.278) lineages considered in this study and given the replicated estimates pointing to a Mesolithic time frame for the origin, diversification and diffusion of the I2a2 clade (Rootsi et al. 2004), the temporal interpretation here provided
for R1b1b2c seems reliable.

R1b1b2c==>R1b-M153 (n=19, var=0.243) Calculated using DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439.

R1b1b2d==>R1b-SRY2627 (n=30, var=0.207) Calculated using DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, GATA H4.

I2a2==>I-M26 (n=13, var=0.278) Calculated using DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, GATA H4.



Now this is interesting:

Quote from: Lopez.Parra.et.al.2008

Two R1b1b2c haplotypes from Biscay were found to be molecularly very differentiated from any other lineage, which surely accounts for the large average variance across Y-STR detected in Biscay (0.388) compared to Cinco Villas (0.185). The detection of such divergent haplotypes can indicate that many intermediate R1b1b2c haplotypes were either lost or still remain unsampled.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 09:11:07 PM by JeanL » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #167 on: June 06, 2012, 01:31:34 AM »

Another rationale for R1b being higher in the North of Italy rather than in the South could be that R1b came into Italy from the North.
The major R1b haplogroup in Italy is U152. With 67 STR ht's, here are the relative variance results for U152 from our DNA projects.

U152 Italy__________:  Var=0.96 [Mixed 49]  (N=37)
U152 Italy__________:  Var=0.88 [Linear 36]  (N=37)
U152 France_________:  Var=1.23 [Mixed 49]  (N=46)
U152 France_________:  Var=1.18 [Linear 36]  (N=46)

R1b U152 could very well have come into Italy from the north.
As far as R1b xU152, I don't know.
This is a possibility and it is by this that also Richard Rocca probably points to France like the origin of R-U152. I too have found some outlier R-U152 in France and take in consideration this possibility. Anyway we have discussed from so long about this, and too many are the factors to be taken present, for instance France is a place of transit more than Italy, which is a cul de sac in respect Europe and the R-U152 present in France may have come from everywhere. France gets, for instance, about 5,000,000 of recent Italian immigration, for not counting all the others. How many French of to-day descend from those who lived there 2000 years ago? French, then named Gallia, was coursed and almost destroyed by Roman troops: someone speaks of one million of dead and one million of prisoners at the time of Julius Caesar. France, above all the South, Provence, which is the Roman Provincia, has had, from Before Christ, many colonies from Italy etc. etc.
Too many are the factors which could be taken present for having something reliable. Our studies are trying to know just this.
Don’t forget what I have written recently about Sicilian Cucina and his mutations in very slow mutating markers. Does he come from France he too? Perhaps many think and desire this. To a friend of mine, in a private letter, who asked me about Richard Rocca, I said  that he is a Sicilian, who thinks to be a French, who lives in America and who will become OUTIS.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 01:33:36 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: June 06, 2012, 06:45:11 AM »

Italy itself has experienced invasions. Is there any genetic traces today in Italy of these peoples?

(for instance)
The year 781 saw the final conclusion of the efforts of Frankish emperor, Charlemagne, to fully conquer and subdue the Lombards in Italy. In that same year his son, Pepin, was given command of Italy. Under his descendant, Lothar, the Frankish kingdom of Italy included all of central and northern Italy (the former exarchate of Ravenna and Lombard kingdom territories), and the Rhine corridor up to modern Holland. It also seems to have included Switzerland. The rulers of Frankish Italy were known as the Middle Franks due to their geographical position between the Western and Eastern Franks. Two of their number were heads of the Frankish empire as a whole between 840-875.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ItalyFranks.htm
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mark Jost
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« Reply #169 on: June 06, 2012, 08:31:04 AM »

...
Don’t forget what I have written recently about Sicilian Cucina and his mutations in very slow mutating markers. Does he come from France he too? Perhaps many think and desire this. To a friend of mine, in a private letter, who asked me about Richard Rocca, I said  that he is a Sicilian, who thinks to be a French, who lives in America and who will become OUTIS.

Won't we all, or most of us?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2012, 08:55:10 AM »

Won't we all, or most of us?
Ou-tis, ancient Greek “no one”, is the name that Ulysses said to Polyphemus. Greek “tis” is the same of Latin “quis” or “pis” of Osco-Umbrian etc.
We may understand “nobody”, in the meaning that his theories won’t make him famous, because they will be defeated, but we may understand that we all will come back in that nothing from where we have come. In this meaning I’d say: we all.

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2012, 09:04:47 AM »

Italy itself has experienced invasions. Is there any genetic traces today in Italy of these peoples?
We are trying just to understand this. We are asking ourselves if a haplotype is Lombard, German, or of other peoples. In the past I have said, above all to Richard Stevens, that the lack of R-L21 in Italy (the few cases are controversial) demonstrates that all that migration from Central-North Europe to Italy probably there hasn’t been.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Richard Rocca
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« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2012, 09:29:22 AM »

Unfortunately I haven't seen any Y-DNA from areas like Tarquinia to really form an opinion on the autochthonous/non-autochthonous debate.
Richard, but you who are an administrator of some haplogroups and you aren’t a VV, why don’t you care of Mangino, actually the Tuscan Mancini from Monticiano (Siena), deep Etruria:
1)   to test him again for ascertain if he is really M269+
2)   and after to promote a WTY or the last 454 (if I am not wrong). I offered to contribute. If he is M269, he breaks probably the line of SNPs around M269. This is the true Etruscan people.


Are you sure of his origins in Tuscany? Mangino is definitely a southern Italian sounding name and is much more common in the south: http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Mangino&x=0&y=0

I think the better investment would be to test someone with proven Tuscan origin. Also, it seems like the kit owner went through great lengths to test his R lineage as he was tested for both the "DeepSNP-R1b" and the "Deep Clade Extended C" products. He seems to be pretty securely M269+L23-. Is there something in his STR values that leads you to suspect that he splits the M269 line?
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2012, 09:59:12 AM »

Are you sure of his origins in Tuscany? Mangino is definitely a southern Italian sounding name and is much more common in the south: http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Mangino&x=0&y=0

I think the better investment would be to test someone with proven Tuscan origin. Also, it seems like the kit owner went through great lengths to test his R lineage as he was tested for both the "DeepSNP-R1b" and the "Deep Clade Extended C" products. He seems to be pretty securely M269+L23-. Is there something in his STR values that leads you to suspect that he splits the M269 line?
I am sure his surname was Mancini and came from Monticiano (Siena). I had an exchange of letters with VV, because his haplotype matches the R1b1* and not R1b1a2*. See it. If he is really M269, probably isn't so his haplotype. Anyway like M269 he is the most varied. Ask also to Humanist, who did a tree of M269, and he was the first detached from the tree. I am sure of this.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 10:04:15 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #174 on: June 06, 2012, 10:18:57 AM »

These are the 22 markers of Klyosov:
M269:       11,12,13,11,11,12,11,9,15,16,8,10,8,12,10,12,12,8,12,11,11,12
Mangino:   12,13,13,11,11,12,11,8,15,16,8,10,8, 0,10,12,12,8,11,11,11,12
R1b1*       12,13,13,11,11,11,11,8,15,16,8,10,8,12,10,12,12,8,11,11,11,12
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 10:27:10 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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