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Author Topic: Different genetic perspectives on human history in Europe and the Caucasus  (Read 11257 times)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2012, 01:41:59 PM »

Let's change the words around to fit reality better:

Not "some" R1b can be linked to IE, the "majority" of R1b can be linked to IE. You can discredit 66% of Iberia, but I can't discredit the 33%?

I have a better idea. Why don't you try to disassociate the R1b-IE link in Ireland (90%+) while you are at it? This would be a great exercise, since L21 is pretty much the sole reason why Basque R1b is more frequent than R1b in its non-Basque neighbors.

As for your Bell Beaker map, it is pretty horrible.

Here is a recent one from Vander Linden (2006), who is a well known BB author:
http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Vander_Linden_2006.png

And an older one from Riquet (1963) showing French BB sites:
http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Riquet_1963.png

Aquitania is almost completely lacking in Bell Beaker material, especially next to its direct neighbors to the NW and SE. This is well documented in all French Bell Beaker literature.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 01:43:19 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2012, 01:56:30 PM »

In my mind, I have to start looking for some advantage for L11 to be able to do that since I doubt if he was really smarter or dumber than anybody else.  I don't think he picked up metallurgy in Brittany or the Pyrenees, nor the IE cultures, there.  I don't really know what the advantage(s) was, but must have been something.

Has anybody looked at trees?  The steppe didn't have any, worthy of the name.  Some of these metal-wielding IE guys moving west (or north) from SW Asia might have found the forests pretty handy for making boats suitable for those long, rapid maritime and riverine leaps.  (Egypt had some nice big wooden boats, but had to import the wood.)  They also had to have something in the general nature of pitch; and something like moss that swells when it's wet.  Anyway, those would be advantages, and mostly wouldn't show up in the archaeological record -- for the same reason that we usually find axe heads but not handles, etc.  

In regards to trees, I think you might have a good point. Metallurgy always requires something to burn in order to extract the ores out of the rock; with a few exceptions of course. Those exceptions being nuggets of gold or even tin. I don't recall if copper is found freely or if it has to be extracted. Silver definitely has to be extracted and probably takes a good amount of wood for the processes. A good example of large scale deforestation is around Lake Tahoe for the Viriginia City Silver Mines. I would have no doubt the same thing happened in the Dartmoor region of Devon which was probably scarce with wood in the first place. Then add the goats, cattle. etc and it leaves a pretty barren landscape. I don't know how metallurgy would be successful on the Steppes without extensive fuel sources such as trees. I don't think grass would burn hot enough to be of any use.

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Humanist
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« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »

I've mentioned this before, and I'm not certain it will help, but here goes:

The Basque are strikingly low in Caucasus Admixture scores. People all around them show scores of Caucasus Admixture, with Poitou showing higher than the surrounding area.

If anything, this would seem to show no connection with R1b and Caucasus Admixture scores.

Sure.  But, they have one of the highest levels of "Gedrosia," among Europeans.  There are a few populations with extreme levels of one of the K12b components.  The group that may have spread R-M269 in W Europe (if we can in fact look at these components in such a way, that far back), may have been modal for this "Gedrosia" component.

Also (and not in response to something you stated directly), just because a component peaks in a population today (e.g. "Caucasus" in Georgians), does not mean it came into being in that location/population.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 02:06:37 PM by Humanist » Logged

razyn
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« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2012, 02:17:59 PM »

In my mind, I have to start looking for some advantage for L11 to be able to do that since I doubt if he was really smarter or dumber than anybody else.  I don't think he picked up metallurgy in Brittany or the Pyrenees, nor the IE cultures, there.  I don't really know what the advantage(s) was, but must have been something.

Has anybody looked at trees?  The steppe didn't have any, worthy of the name.  Some of these metal-wielding IE guys moving west (or north) from SW Asia might have found the forests pretty handy for making boats suitable for those long, rapid maritime and riverine leaps.  (Egypt had some nice big wooden boats, but had to import the wood.)  They also had to have something in the general nature of pitch; and something like moss that swells when it's wet.  Anyway, those would be advantages, and mostly wouldn't show up in the archaeological record -- for the same reason that we usually find axe heads but not handles, etc.  

In regards to trees, I think you might have a good point. Metallurgy always requires something to burn in order to extract the ores out of the rock; with a few exceptions of course. Those exceptions being nuggets of gold or even tin. I don't recall if copper is found freely or if it has to be extracted. Silver definitely has to be extracted and probably takes a good amount of wood for the processes. A good example of large scale deforestation is around Lake Tahoe for the Viriginia City Silver Mines. I would have no doubt the same thing happened in the Dartmoor region of Devon which was probably scarce with wood in the first place. Then add the goats, cattle. etc and it leaves a pretty barren landscape. I don't know how metallurgy would be successful on the Steppes without extensive fuel sources such as trees. I don't think grass would burn hot enough to be of any use.

Arch

I specified trees "worthy of the name," because it takes big ones to make the simpler sort of boats, dugouts with "sewn" side-expanders and such.  Where rivers cut through the steppe there are trees along the river -- usually with unsuitably soft wood, because they grow too fast -- but I think charcoal (for smelting, or high temperatures generally) can be made from soft wood.  Certainly it can be made from small trees; and the ones I saw in my single visit to the steppe were pretty shrub-like.

I'm probably guilty of a vast oversimplification; I just think any natural resources are valid candidates for the "advantages" seen by Bell Beaker scouting parties.  Trees, water routes, something to eat, some mates, horses, clay for the pottery -- lots of resources, not just ores.
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« Reply #104 on: June 01, 2012, 02:18:16 PM »

... It is easier to dismiss the Basques today, and to call the argument ridiculous, however a quick search on the internet reveals that all these people in Green also spoke a nonIndoEuropean language.
http://wapedia.mobi/thumb/94cd509/es/fixed/470/436/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG?format=jpg
...

Does anyone have an R1b frequency and diversity charts for Iberia?  I don't know the answer to this, but it would be interesting to see if there were variations in the subclade mix by ancient cultural regions.
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JeanL
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« Reply #105 on: June 01, 2012, 02:20:42 PM »

Let's change the words around to fit reality better:

Not "some" R1b can be linked to IE, the "majority" of R1b can be linked to IE. You can discredit 66% of Iberia, but I can't discredit the 33%?

Well, let’s put it this way, all the Celtic speaking Iberians have far lower frequencies of R1b than the nonCeltic speaking Iberians, so for all we know Celtic was brought over by a combination of haplogroups, and certainly not limited to R1b.

I have a better idea. Why don't you try to disassociate the R1b-IE link in Ireland (90%+) while you are at it? This would be a great exercise, since L21 is pretty much the sole reason why Basque R1b is more frequent than R1b inits non-Basque neighbors.

Yeah, nice try, here is the frequency of R1b-P312(xL21,U152) in Basques from the Martinez-Cruz.et.al.2012 study

Lapurdi/Nafarroa Beherea ZMX (n=44) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)     23/44 or 52.27%

Nafarroa Beherea NLA (n=66) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)    39/66 or 59.10%

Zuberoa SOU (n=53) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)   38/53 or 71.7%

Roncal, Nafarroa  RON (n=53) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)   30/53 or 56.60%

Central/Western Nafarroa  NCO (n=60) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)   41/60 or 68.33%

North/Western Nafarroa  NNO (n=51) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)   34/51 66.67%

Guipuscoa GUI (n=47) Table S4

 R1b-P312(xL21,U152)   32/47 or 68.10%

Southwestern Guipuscoa GSO (n=57) Table S4

 R1b-P312(xL21,U152)    40/57 or 70.18%

Alava, ALA (n=51) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)    24/51 or 47.06%

Bizkaia BBA (n=57) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)    42/57 or 73.68%

Western Bizkaia BOC(n=19) Table S4

R1b-P312(xL21,U152)    13/19 or 68.42%

What is the frequency of R1b again in Cantabrians? Ahh yeah, according to Myres.et.al.2010, it was 48.1%. What is the frequency of R1b again in Leon, Castilla Leon, again 57.8%, and that is including R1b-L21 and R1b-U152. Yeah, Alava has a lower frequency, you wanna argue about the rest of the Basques.

Also, I don’t need to make R1b-L21 nonIndoEuropean, in fact, if there is a candidate for the spread of IE amongst the R1b-P312 clades, those would be R1b-L21, and R1b-U152. However, who is to say that they did not learn PIE from the incoming R1b-L23(xL150) folks, in fact R1b-L23(xL150) is found in Ireland, England, and even amongst some French Basques, so this shows that yes there was some IE input in Basques, it simply wasn’t enough to offset the nonIE speaking R1b-P312(xU152,L21).

As for your Bell Beaker map, it is pretty horrible.

Here is a recent one from Vander Linden (2006), who is a well known BB author:
http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Vander_Linden_2006.png

And an older one from Riquet (1963) showing French BB sites:
http://www.u152.org/images/stories/Riquet_1963.png
Aquitania is almost completely lacking in Bell Beaker material, especially next to its direct neighbors to the NW and SE. This is well documented in all French Bell Beaker literature.

It is not my map, it is a map published from the work of Kamieńska and Kulczycka-Leciejewiczowa, 1970.

Who gives a d__n  about Bell Beakers in Aquitania, we are talking about the presence of R1b-P312 in there, and it is very high, so what’s it with the strawman argument. Yeah, Aquitania has less Beaker than Brittany, the Basque Country also has about the same influence as Aquitania, so what’s your point?

Here is another map(Albeit in Spanish): http://clio.rediris.es/n32/atlas/005.jpg


« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 04:59:26 PM by JeanL » Logged
JeanL
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« Reply #106 on: June 01, 2012, 02:55:25 PM »

Does anyone have an R1b frequency and diversity charts for Iberia?  I don't know the answer to this, but it would be interesting to see if there were variations in the subclade mix by ancient cultural regions.

Well the Adams.et.al.2008 study only made a distinction between R1b-M269*, R1b-M65, R1b-M153, and R1b-SRY2627. So R1b-M269* includes anything that is downstream of M269 and that isn’t M65, or M153, or SRY2627.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Adamsetal2008.jpg

Then there is the Cruciani.et.al.2010 study where only a distinction was made between R1b-M269*, and R1b-U152, and R1b-U106.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Crucianietal2010-Figure-1.jpg

I find it interesting that a good amount of Berbers were sampled, yet R1b-M269* does not surpass 2% in Berbers.
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ironroad41
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« Reply #107 on: June 01, 2012, 03:35:30 PM »

In my mind, I have to start looking for some advantage for L11 to be able to do that since I doubt if he was really smarter or dumber than anybody else.  I don't think he picked up metallurgy in Brittany or the Pyrenees, nor the IE cultures, there.  I don't really know what the advantage(s) was, but must have been something.

Has anybody looked at trees?  The steppe didn't have any, worthy of the name.  Some of these metal-wielding IE guys moving west (or north) from SW Asia might have found the forests pretty handy for making boats suitable for those long, rapid maritime and riverine leaps.  (Egypt had some nice big wooden boats, but had to import the wood.)  They also had to have something in the general nature of pitch; and something like moss that swells when it's wet.  Anyway, those would be advantages, and mostly wouldn't show up in the archaeological record -- for the same reason that we usually find axe heads but not handles, etc.  

In regards to trees, I think you might have a good point. Metallurgy always requires something to burn in order to extract the ores out of the rock; with a few exceptions of course. Those exceptions being nuggets of gold or even tin. I don't recall if copper is found freely or if it has to be extracted. Silver definitely has to be extracted and probably takes a good amount of wood for the processes. A good example of large scale deforestation is around Lake Tahoe for the Viriginia City Silver Mines. I would have no doubt the same thing happened in the Dartmoor region of Devon which was probably scarce with wood in the first place. Then add the goats, cattle. etc and it leaves a pretty barren landscape. I don't know how metallurgy would be successful on the Steppes without extensive fuel sources such as trees. I don't think grass would burn hot enough to be of any use.

Arch
There is a very interesting formation of native copper mixed with silver in the northern part of the UP of Michigan and especially Isle Royale in the middle of Lake Superior.  A chunk of native copper from the ontanogan river bed is in the Smithsonian and weighs over two tons.  I bring this up because there are some questions about these sites as to who mined them prehistorically?  There were literally hundreds of thousands of stone axes at the pits.  They did need fire for cracking out of the stone, but the copper was in sheets and large hunks.  There is a city in the UP called Mass, where huge boulders of Cu were mined.  The native Cu has been found all over North America.
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razyn
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« Reply #108 on: June 01, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »

I ran across this somewhere.  The source seems highly suspect, but the discussion is relevant, whether or not his particular theories are crazy.

http://www.philipcoppens.com/copper.html

I've been meaning to check whether this had anything to do with the high R1b level in eastern Native Americans, but couldn't bring myself to believe in it enough to exert any effort that way.
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« Reply #109 on: June 01, 2012, 04:32:13 PM »

There are a lot of myths out there.  Attached is a refutation to some of  these claims by an anrcheologist.  I am not sure she is fully correct either.  Note I own a cc of the Drier book and went to Michigan Tech.

www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html.


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #110 on: June 02, 2012, 08:21:04 AM »

Also, I don’t need to make R1b-L21 nonIndoEuropean, in fact, if there is a candidate for the spread of IE amongst the R1b-P312 clades, those would be R1b-L21, and R1b-U152. However, who is to say that they did not learn PIE from the incoming R1b-L23(xL150) folks, in fact R1b-L23(xL150) is found in Ireland, England, and even amongst some French Basques, so this shows that yes there was some IE input in Basques, it simply wasn’t enough to offset the nonIE speaking R1b-P312(xU152,L21).

Just so I understand, you are saying that L21 was originally non-IE speaking and they learned IE from later L23* folks? Same with U152?

If so, did these new waves of L23* always speak IE, or did they learn it from someone else as well?  If so, what group taught it to them?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 08:43:19 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #111 on: June 02, 2012, 09:20:38 AM »

Don’t waste time with a mirrors play. Read my post about HV0a (and all previous ones): I have given infinite proofs about the Italian Refugium.

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« Reply #112 on: June 02, 2012, 09:39:38 AM »

I've mentioned this before, and I'm not certain it will help, but here goes:

The Basque are strikingly low in Caucasus Admixture scores. People all around them show scores of Caucasus Admixture, with Poitou showing higher than the surrounding area.

If anything, this would seem to show no connection with R1b and Caucasus Admixture scores.

Sure.  But, they have one of the highest levels of "Gedrosia," among Europeans.  There are a few populations with extreme levels of one of the K12b components.  The group that may have spread R-M269 in W Europe (if we can in fact look at these components in such a way, that far back), may have been modal for this "Gedrosia" component.

Also (and not in response to something you stated directly), just because a component peaks in a population today (e.g. "Caucasus" in Georgians), does not mean it came into being in that location/population.



Gedrosia is just a Caucasus component whose alleles become concentrated and selected for in South-Central Asia imo.
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« Reply #113 on: June 02, 2012, 09:54:03 AM »

Don’t waste time with a mirrors play. Read my post about HV0a (and all previous ones): I have given infinite proofs about the Italian Refugium.



Can you direct me to your post and your ideas about HV0a?. I am HV0 so I am interested, even though I have no connections to any part of Italy.

Thanks
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M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

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« Reply #114 on: June 02, 2012, 10:05:18 AM »

You may find it here at the Mitochondrial section. I spoke of HV0a and not HV0, which is more widespread all over the world, also in Spain and in Italy, but also in Asia, and probably they are different ancient lines. But HV0a is Italian and all subclades come from here.
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« Reply #115 on: June 02, 2012, 10:44:40 AM »

Just so I understand, you are saying that L21 was originally non-IE speaking and they learned IE from later L23* folks? Same with U152?

Yes, but I was actually thinking of an scenario where P312* has already expanded and it is found from Iberia to Germany, then the L23* come, and by trading, and living  together some of the P312* folks learn PIE. Then the L21 folks are born inside this Central European society, so they were likely PIE speaking since they were born. I’m just throwing a hypothesis in here, but I think L21 was likely born somewhere in France, maybe around the region where Paris is today. As for U152, I think it was likely born in the region where Austria is today. However, that is highly speculative, and I wouldn’t put too much weight in the exact location, as it is impossible to know.

If so, did these new waves of L23* always speak IE, or did they learn it from someone else as well?  If so, what group taught it to them?

I agree with the Steppe hypothesis, I think L23* along with R1a was part of the PIE world. I just think that there was a duality with R1b, where some of them expanded from Western Europe(L11, P312), and then some expanded from Eastern Europe(L23*, U106). I was looking over the data of Myres.et.al.2010, and except for Iberia, everywhere else the R1b-P312 clades are dominated by L21+ and U152+ clades, so it would make sense if those two were IE speaking, and the Z196 wasn’t.  Whatever Z196 that made it to the British Islands during the Atlantic Bronze Age, would have likely learned the language, just as some of the L21 folks that got to the Basque Country had to learn Euskera, maybe not them, but eventually their offspring did.


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« Reply #116 on: June 03, 2012, 09:57:49 AM »

You may find it here at the Mitochondrial section. I spoke of HV0a and not HV0, which is more widespread all over the world, also in Spain and in Italy, but also in Asia, and probably they are different ancient lines. But HV0a is Italian and all subclades come from here.
Thanks will go there and check it out.
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M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

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« Reply #117 on: June 03, 2012, 11:06:17 AM »

Just so I understand, you are saying that L21 was originally non-IE speaking and they learned IE from later L23* folks? Same with U152?

Yes, but I was actually thinking of an scenario where P312* has already expanded and it is found from Iberia to Germany, then the L23* come, and by trading, and living  together some of the P312* folks learn PIE. Then the L21 folks are born inside this Central European society, so they were likely PIE speaking since they were born. I’m just throwing a hypothesis in here, but I think L21 was likely born somewhere in France, maybe around the region where Paris is today. As for U152, I think it was likely born in the region where Austria is today. However, that is highly speculative, and I wouldn’t put too much weight in the exact location, as it is impossible to know.

If so, did these new waves of L23* always speak IE, or did they learn it from someone else as well?  If so, what group taught it to them?

I agree with the Steppe hypothesis, I think L23* along with R1a was part of the PIE world. I just think that there was a duality with R1b, where some of them expanded from Western Europe(L11, P312), and then some expanded from Eastern Europe(L23*, U106). I was looking over the data of Myres.et.al.2010, and except for Iberia, everywhere else the R1b-P312 clades are dominated by L21+ and U152+ clades, so it would make sense if those two were IE speaking, and the Z196 wasn’t.  Whatever Z196 that made it to the British Islands during the Atlantic Bronze Age, would have likely learned the language, just as some of the L21 folks that got to the Basque Country had to learn Euskera, maybe not them, but eventually their offspring did.

It looks like you are saying L11 and its lineages were early expansions west and were non-IE speaking.  Later then a combination of R1a and R-L23* folks come in and settled and that point most of the L11 lineages, including U152, L21 and U106, learn IE languages and cultures (or were born into L11 lineages that learned IE from R1a and R-L23*.)  Do I understand?

Is some some ways, this is not too different than Kylosov's view, just that you address the lack of R1a in Celtic lands via hypothesizing that R-L23* was the IE group that brought IE there.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 11:29:53 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #118 on: June 03, 2012, 11:41:08 AM »

It looks like you are saying L11 and its lineages were early expansions west and were non-IE speaking.  Later then a combination of R1a and R-L23* folks come in and settled and that point most of the L11 lineages, including U152, L21 and U106, learn IE languages and cultures (or were born into L11 lineages that learned IE from R1a and R-L23*.)  Do I understand?
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Is some some ways, this is not too different than Kylosov's view, just that you address the lack of R1a in Celtic lands via hypothesizing that R-L23* was the IE group that brought IE there.

Well, I don’t think that R1b-L23 came to Iberia via North Africa, or that R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 were both born in Iberia and expanded with the Bell Beakers, maybe one could argue it for R1b-P312, but  I don’t see how R1b-U106 fits  the picture. Yeah, I also think that R-L23* is a better candidate to explain the expansion of PIE in Western Europe, because it makes no sense that R1a would teach PIE to R1b bearers yet remain in the Eastern half of Europe, and not travel West. On the other hand, we find R1b-L23* almost everywhere in the West, although at lower proportions that other  forms of R1bL23+, but it is definitely higher than R1a, which is nonexistent in many IE speaking places in Western Europe.

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« Reply #119 on: June 03, 2012, 12:27:18 PM »


Well, I don’t think that R1b-L23 came to Iberia via North Africa, or that R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 were both born in Iberia and expanded with the Bell Beakers, maybe one could argue it for R1b-P312, but  I don’t see how R1b-U106 fits  the picture. Yeah, I also think that R-L23* is a better candidate to explain the expansion of PIE in Western Europe, because it makes no sense that R1a would teach PIE to R1b bearers yet remain in the Eastern half of Europe, and not travel West. On the other hand, we find R1b-L23* almost everywhere in the West, although at lower proportions that other  forms of R1bL23+, but it is definitely higher than R1a, which is nonexistent in many IE speaking places in Western Europe.



Thank you for bringing some expanded outlook of possible migrations.

Two comments in relation to Indoeuropean Languages and Haplogroups in the Iberian Peninsula prior to the Roman control.

Language by itself is a tool and it is as good as the person or group using it so to compare today's impact of some IE languages to Proto-IE is surreal, there is a connection indeed but there are two different things.
There are two languages that deserve recognition as unique,  Celtic and Euskara for surviving the surrounding IE heavy weights.


This brings me to Iberia circa 1000BC , there were  known languages, Euskara, Iberian, Celtic(IE), then add Etruscan and Ligurian spoken in Italy.
Celtic, being a branch of IE was one of 6 (maybe more) languages and most likely sharing territory with the other 5.
I don't see why not treat Q Celtic in Iberia as arriving the same route  Maritime.
1000BC or 2k or 3k BC or whenever.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 12:28:56 PM by Isidro » Logged

Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2012, 10:50:09 PM »

It looks like you are saying L11 and its lineages were early expansions west and were non-IE speaking.  Later then a combination of R1a and R-L23* folks come in and settled and that point most of the L11 lineages, including U152, L21 and U106, learn IE languages and cultures (or were born into L11 lineages that learned IE from R1a and R-L23*.)  Do I understand?
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Is some some ways, this is not too different than Kylosov's view, just that you address the lack of R1a in Celtic lands via hypothesizing that R-L23* was the IE group that brought IE there.

Well, I don’t think that R1b-L23 came to Iberia via North Africa, or that R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 were both born in Iberia and expanded with the Bell Beakers, maybe one could argue it for R1b-P312, but  I don’t see how R1b-U106 fits  the picture. Yeah, I also think that R-L23* is a better candidate to explain the expansion of PIE in Western Europe, because it makes no sense that R1a would teach PIE to R1b bearers yet remain in the Eastern half of Europe, and not travel West. On the other hand, we find R1b-L23* almost everywhere in the West, although at lower proportions that other  forms of R1bL23+, but it is definitely higher than R1a, which is nonexistent in many IE speaking places in Western Europe.

Excellent! then we have part of this settled: R1a is not likely to have brought IE to R1b in Western Europe. Now we just need a closer examination of R-L23*.

It's a bit weird that a grandson of R-L23, R-L11 (the Western European man who was non IE speaking) became, far and away, the dominant Y haplogroup in Western Europe IE speaking territories. I wonder how that happened that L11 learned IE from his grandfather or g-grandfather R-L23+ L11- ancestor (via an L11- cousin)?  I guess we need to look closer at R-L23*.

Parsimonious?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 10:58:28 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2012, 11:17:47 PM »

Language by itself is a tool and it is as good as the person or group using it so to compare today's impact of some IE languages to Proto-IE is surreal, there is a connection indeed but there are two different things.
There are two languages that deserve recognition as unique,  Celtic and Euskara for surviving the surrounding IE heavy weights.

I just want to provide a technical clarification. Celtic is an IE language.  Although it has been diminished signficantly in its usage, about 2000 years ago there was no doubt that Celtic was an heavy weight IE language.  Just ask the Romans.

Celtic, being a branch of IE was one of 6 (maybe more) languages and most likely sharing territory with the other 5. I don't see why not treat Q Celtic in Iberia as arriving the same route  Maritime. 1000BC or 2k or 3k BC or whenever.

This is quite possible, but if Q Celtic came with P312 then you have to look at overland mid-destination points like SE France, Italy or even an ultimate launch point further east.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 11:22:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2012, 11:42:44 PM »


Celtic, being a branch of IE was one of 6 (maybe more) languages and most likely sharing territory with the other 5. I don't see why not treat Q Celtic in Iberia as arriving the same route  Maritime. 1000BC or 2k or 3k BC or whenever.

This is quite possible, but if Q Celtic came with P312 then you have to look at overland mid-destination points like SE France, Italy or even an ultimate launch point further east.

Or farther north, for launching (of their boats... as possibly distinguished from the launching of Q-Celtic).  I'm not sure that arguing about a language family (if it had not yet developed) makes any more sense than arguing about glacial refugia (for Copper Age haplogroups whose SNP had not yet mutated).  Too much rides on precise dating, for which our evidence is still a little slim.  And precision, at least to the level of which millennium we mean, would make a substantial difference to the linguistic argument -- let alone to any attempt to match the Y-DNA with an archaeological complex.
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« Reply #123 on: June 04, 2012, 01:20:36 AM »


Celtic, being a branch of IE was one of 6 (maybe more) languages and most likely sharing territory with the other 5. I don't see why not treat Q Celtic in Iberia as arriving the same route  Maritime. 1000BC or 2k or 3k BC or whenever.

This is quite possible, but if Q Celtic came with P312 then you have to look at overland mid-destination points like SE France, Italy or even an ultimate launch point further east.

Or farther north, for launching (of their boats... as possibly distinguished from the launching of Q-Celtic).  I'm not sure that arguing about a language family (if it had not yet developed) makes any more sense than arguing about glacial refugia (for Copper Age haplogroups whose SNP had not yet mutated).  Too much rides on precise dating, for which our evidence is still a little slim.  And precision, at least to the level of which millennium we mean, would make a substantial difference to the linguistic argument -- let alone to any attempt to match the Y-DNA with an archaeological complex.

I disagree entirely with your characterization of TMRCA precision.  "The European Bronze Age is characterized by bronze artifacts and the use of bronze implements. The regional Bronze Age succeeds the Neolithic. It starts with the Aegean Bronze Age in 3200 BC", according to Wikipedia. Whereas, they say "The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) refers to a period in the Earth's climate history when ice sheets were at their maximum extension, between 26,500 and 19,000–20,000 years ago."

These two timeframes are geometrically different. When you add this to other information, our TMRCA dating is precise enough to discern haplogroup ages into LGM versus Bronze Age. I think that much is clear. Discerning between mid-Neolithic and Bronze Age may be questionable but LGM is out of the question for such haplogroups as P312.

PIE is a Bronze Age language. There is not too much argument about it being Paleolithic. I don't think there is much of a case that P312 is Paleolithic either.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 01:35:46 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #124 on: June 04, 2012, 01:40:22 AM »

I'm not really disagreeing with you, more with Isidro -- you quoted him, but he's the one who said
Quote
I don't see why not treat Q Celtic in Iberia as arriving the same route  Maritime.
1000BC or 2k or 3k BC or whenever.

However I sort of agree with his highlighting of maritime, and if that's what we are talking about (one of several variables here), finding overland stopovers for something that did not move overland might be a point of contention.

While I have your attention (Mike), my 111 markers have almost all been reported, and I'd like to start looking for off-modals in the numbers above 67.  I'm pretty sure those are not covered in Y-search, right?  So, where would I look for the extended Z196 modal?  Or, which are the interesting markers (DYS710 and above) for a DF27+ Z196+ Z209+ Z220+ Z216- guy to look at?

I'm fairly sure this discussion has happened somewhere, but in quick searching I can only seem to find L21 guys (and Hg J guys) talking about that issue, recently.
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